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RE: Interesting Article about Rude Behaviour Online - 12/24/2012 8:06:14 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

I guess I look at it in an entirely different way. As far as I'm concerned I'm glad that anonymity causes people to be less responsive to social norms. What that means is that what I see here is closer to the real truth. So in short, all the asshats come here and expose themselves as such. The only thing I don't get are the people who say, "Oh, but they're not like that in real life." Oh yes they are. They just cover it up better in real life.


Quite so.

And the article is, apart from being old news, also quite fucked up. They talk about lack of identity, when what was figured out long before that article was that it's about the lack of identifiability translating into a lack of accountability, neither of which has anything to do with identity. When people think they're being watched, they behave better. When they think they're being judged, they behave even better. When they get graded feedback with accountability, they become veritable saints and consummate professionals.

This can be seen in a lot of other research, too. Inhibitions based on social repression of intrinsic behavior. Give people a questionnaire and tell them their answers will be reviewed, they'll answer one way. Tell them their answers are anonymous, and they'll answer another way. Tell them their answers are anonymous but will be reviewed to weed out insincere replies, and they'll answer yet another way. It's pathetic, really, but hardly news.

Reminds me of the nonsensical excuse that "it was the booze". All booze does, is take away inhibitions and thus reveal innate disposition. If the innate disposition is unpleasant, it's appropriate to pin that on them, also when sober. And if someone does get drunk again after discovering that their innate disposition is an unpleasant one the first time, then there's a conscious choice to reveal the inner asshat, so no point cutting someone any slack over what they do and say while drunk (apart from the first time, anyway).

I'm as polite and coherent when I can't walk straight as I am on CM.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Interesting Article about Rude Behaviour Online - 12/24/2012 8:09:35 AM   
LizDeluxe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

I guess I look at it in an entirely different way. As far as I'm concerned I'm glad that anonymity causes people to be less responsive to social norms. What that means is that what I see here is closer to the real truth. So in short, all the asshats come here and expose themselves as such. The only thing I don't get are the people who say, "Oh, but they're not like that in real life." Oh yes they are. They just cover it up better in real life.


If what you see of them in real life is a covered up version of what you see online then those people are right. We are who we are but if we behave differently face to face than we do online then even though the mindset might be the same the end effect is not.

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RE: Interesting Article about Rude Behaviour Online - 12/24/2012 8:12:52 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: metamorfosis

Are you saying your behavior towards people on the internet is exactly what it is in real life? How is that even possible?


No, she's saying her character doesn't change.

Behavior pretty much always depends on the context in which it occurs, unless one completely lacks any form of social antennae, but that's different from a change of character, which is what we're talking about here: when anonymous or drunk, a normally repressed person will change character to being more honestly themselves, but their behavior will still be context dependent, just stemming from their honest character.

I'm constantly amazed we don't cover these things in elementary school.

ETA: How is being decent human beings and understanding the world around us less important than spelling or algebra?

IWYW,
— Aswad.


< Message edited by Aswad -- 12/24/2012 8:16:20 AM >

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Interesting Article about Rude Behaviour Online - 12/24/2012 9:02:36 AM   
metamorfosis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: metamorfosis

Are you saying your behavior towards people on the internet is exactly what it is in real life? How is that even possible?


No, she's saying her character doesn't change.

Behavior pretty much always depends on the context in which it occurs, unless one completely lacks any form of social antennae, but that's different from a change of character...


But character doesn't actually change with the context. It may be unmasked, but it doesn't change. Only behavior changes with context. I don't see how she could have really meant a change in character.

Pam

< Message edited by metamorfosis -- 12/24/2012 9:30:03 AM >

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RE: Interesting Article about Rude Behaviour Online - 12/24/2012 9:22:13 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
How is being decent human beings and understanding the world around us less important than spelling or algebra?

Probably because nobody's going to give you a job working a till if you can read the customer's body language perfectly, but can't give them the correct change.

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RE: Interesting Article about Rude Behaviour Online - 12/24/2012 9:29:22 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: metamorfosis

But character doesn't really change with the context. It may be unmasked, but it doesn't change. Only behavior changes with context.


Yes...?

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Interesting Article about Rude Behaviour Online - 12/24/2012 9:29:22 AM   
stellauk


Posts: 1360
Status: offline 		I'm sorry but I find the article is pretty much codswallop.

Character and behaviour are two different things, the first is immutable, the second isn't.

The only difference between face to face contact and online contact is that there's no way of seeing the visual non-verbal communication, but it doesn't mean that none of the non-verbal communication or projection goesn't come through.

It does. And even though the visual cues are absent people still can pick up on the emotion, feeling and projection or vibes lying within your words almost as effectively as when you open your gob and they hear your voice.

You see you're still using language and words, and those words still contain ethos (character), logos (thinking) and pathos (emotion). In fact it's impossible to express yourself using language or words without projecting a lot of non-verbal stuff.

This is what makes a good actor, in that he can create a character and behave and act in ways which convince you that he is that character and the ethos, logos and pathos belong to that character. When an actor is delivering lines but using his own non-verbal communication, the ethos, logos and pathos, he isn't acting, and most people would see this immediately. Such an actor is said to be 'playing himself' or is described as wooden.

There is no difference between the stage and the screen - all the non-verbal cues are exactly the same.

Good actors can play a diverse range of roles, because they can convince you each time that they are that character. Actors who aren't so good - at least in the industry - are those who can only play a limited range of roles, usually of characters similar to them.

I think a major reason why people behave differently online is because they believe that there is a major difference between communication face to face and communication online. Some people will tell you that online communication is just 'pixels on a screen'. Not true. At both ends of the communication you have a real live human being, and it doesn't matter whether it's face to face or online.

So while you may think you're getting away with it online by being rude, obnoxious, anti-social or bullying, you're actually not. You might think that you're making a statement about the person you are addressing, but the reality is is that you are making an even bigger statement about yourself, and other people can see it just as clearly as if you were doing it face to face.

Another thing is, and here I'm genuinely quite curious, where do people get the idea that just because there are sadists on this site that there's a tendency for people to be more unpleasant and abrasive in their communication?

How do people arrive at this conclusion? You see I know some sadists, some really hardcore sadists, the sort of sadists who are into some really heavy stuff, the sort of sadists who if they played with the wrong person could leave them permanently fucked up. The consistent thing about these sadists is that I find them all to be pleasant, intelligent and articulate people.

I also don't buy the excuse that people can be rude or abrasive because they are 'blunt' or 'honest'. Being direct or frank, for want of a better word doesn't excuse anyone from being articulate or from communicating effectively.

These sorts of excuses just don't wash. People are rude and abrasive because they lack the social and communication skills to communicate effectively and they don't care or pay enough attention to the feelings of others. You can be direct without being rude, obnoxious or offensive pretty much as I'm doing here. You choose the words, you own them, you're the one responsible for the way you communicate and express yourself, not anybody else.

That saying I also don't see any reason in being butthurt either over how people are online. People are as people are. Most Internet browsers are pretty much the same, and if you can't handle it there's usually a little 'x' in the top right hand corner. Nobody forces you to log into sites like this. You have just as much control over your computer as people have over their words.

just my 0.02



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RE: Interesting Article about Rude Behaviour Online - 12/24/2012 9:30:38 AM   
metamorfosis


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Status: offline 		Sorry, see edit.

Pam

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RE: Interesting Article about Rude Behaviour Online - 12/24/2012 9:31:09 AM   
JstAnotherSub


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quote:

codswallop


I learned a new word. Thanks Stella!



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yep

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RE: Interesting Article about Rude Behaviour Online - 12/24/2012 9:36:35 AM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LizDeluxe
If what you see of them in real life is a covered up version of what you see online then those people are right. We are who we are but if we behave differently face to face than we do online then even though the mindset might be the same the end effect is not.

Agreed. However when I look at people I tend to see the inside more than the outside. It is their character that I most care about. So I don't really care if the "end effect is different". What I care about is that there is a defective character (by my measures) and that was demonstrated by the lack of desire or lack of ability to be civil when the threat of consequence was removed. Well, OK -- perhaps I do care a bit. Yes, it's nice that the asshat is able to stifle themselves out in the real world. But that surely doesn't mean I want an asshat at my dinner table or in my living room.

@Aswad
Yeah, without all your reading I caught that same problem with the article. It isn't MY identity that gets lost (although I suppose I might argue that it does get lost if core parts of my identity are imposed by the civil structure around me). It's also interesting to ponder what it means when a "dominant" exhibits this behavior. Can one really be thought of as "dominant" when their ethics and self-discipline are externally imposed?

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RE: Interesting Article about Rude Behaviour Online - 12/24/2012 10:16:26 AM   
metamorfosis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk

I'm sorry but I find the article is pretty much codswallop.

Character and behaviour are two different things, the first is immutable, the second isn't.

The article doesn't mention character at all. It talks about behavior.

The only difference between face to face contact and online contact is that there's no way of seeing the visual non-verbal communication, but it doesn't mean that none of the non-verbal communication or projection goesn't come through.

No, there is another difference: the anonymity of the medium.

It does. And even though the visual cues are absent people still can pick up on the emotion, feeling and projection or vibes lying within your words almost as effectively as when you open your gob and they hear your voice.

Yes, they pick up on emotion. No, not as well as when they hear your voice or see your face. ETA: That was one of the points of the article, an explanation for the perceived rudeness of online behavior.

...I think a major reason why people behave differently online is because they believe that there is a major difference between communication face to face and communication online. Some people will tell you that online communication is just 'pixels on a screen'. Not true. At both ends of the communication you have a real live human being, and it doesn't matter whether it's face to face or online.

But there's even a major difference between communication face to face and communication face to face, so to speak. If you're speaking in a bar on a Friday night, you behave a certain way. If you're speaking at work, you behave another. At home, another. The fact that people behave differently on the internet doesn't necessarily mean they're behaving badly.

I also don't buy the excuse that people can be rude or abrasive because they are 'blunt' or 'honest'. These sorts of excuses just don't wash. People are rude and abrasive because they lack the social and communication skills to communicate effectively and they don't care or pay enough attention to the feelings of others.

Or, their definition of the terms "rudeness" and "effective communication" differ from yours.

You can be direct without being rude, obnoxious or offensive pretty much as I'm doing here. You choose the words, you own them, you're the one responsible for the way you communicate and express yourself, not anybody else.

Are you saying that if someone takes offence to what you say, it must be your fault?

That saying I also don't see any reason in being butthurt either over how people are online. People are as people are. Most Internet browsers are pretty much the same, and if you can't handle it there's usually a little 'x' in the top right hand corner...

I mostly agree. However, I do like JeffBC's suggestion of a "rant" button instead of a "report post" button for those who don't have the discipline to use the "block" button.


Pam

< Message edited by metamorfosis -- 12/24/2012 10:18:58 AM >

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RE: Interesting Article about Rude Behaviour Online - 12/24/2012 10:20:28 AM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
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Status: offline 		Loved your post, Stella. Simply loved it.

I also disagree with the notion of sadist = blunt/ rude. The sadists I know enjoy inflicting pain on particular people, but are still quite pleasant people to talk to.

My own personality, behavior and character are very similar online to real life, other than I probably don't come across as cheerful online as I am in person. I'm probably more reserved online.

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RE: Interesting Article about Rude Behaviour Online - 12/24/2012 10:47:58 AM   
Aswad


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Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk

Character and behaviour are two different things, the first is immutable, the second isn't.


Nonsense. Character is mutable. It just changes slowly, s'all.

quote:

The only difference between face to face contact and online contact is that there's no way of seeing the visual non-verbal communication, but it doesn't mean that none of the non-verbal communication or projection goesn't come through.


That's not the only difference. Anonymity is definitely a difference.

quote:

In fact it's impossible to express yourself using language or words without projecting a lot of non-verbal stuff.


Several decades of computer science say differently. Same thing with math.

quote:

Another thing is, and here I'm genuinely quite curious, where do people get the idea that just because there are sadists on this site that there's a tendency for people to be more unpleasant and abrasive in their communication?


Probably because sadism is a part of one's character. Some people think character always expresses itself.

quote:

The consistent thing about these sadists is that I find them all to be pleasant, intelligent and articulate people.


Of course. Sadism requires empathy. Which also influences what is expressed, and how.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to stellauk)
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RE: Interesting Article about Rude Behaviour Online - 12/24/2012 10:50:54 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: metamorfosis

Sorry, see edit.


I just did. She never said her character changes. She said the opposite. That's why your reply to her confused me.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Interesting Article about Rude Behaviour Online - 12/24/2012 10:56:10 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

when anonymous or drunk, a normally repressed person will change character to being more honestly themselves, but their behavior will still be context dependent, just stemming from their honest character.

I need to pick this nit. The social consciousness that inhibits a non-inebriated person is a part of them, a part of who they are. When it is numbed, when they are drunk, you are not seeing them being "more honestly themselves," you're only seeing a part of them, a part that is not allowed free reign when they are most fully themselves.

K.

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RE: Interesting Article about Rude Behaviour Online - 12/24/2012 10:57:03 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Probably because nobody's going to give you a job working a till if you can read the customer's body language perfectly, but can't give them the correct change.


Ah, yes, I keep forgetting... production, not living... living is for the next stage of human civilization, not this one, and it'll come about by mere chance, or by magic, or the actions of the enlightened few who get it. Oh, wait... those enlightened few are consistently ignored, and chance isn't doing its job; guess it's down to magic then, like all advances... sigh.

I never had any trouble dealing with multiple subjects at once; I don't imagine you did, either.

It's possible to be a clerk and a human at the same time.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Interesting Article about Rude Behaviour Online - 12/24/2012 11:08:33 AM   
Aswad


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Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

Yeah, without all your reading I caught that same problem with the article.


The utility of such reading is mostly independent verification, in my experience.

quote:

It isn't MY identity that gets lost (although I suppose I might argue that it does get lost if core parts of my identity are imposed by the civil structure around me).


I'm guessing they meant identifiability, though it is recognized that many people have little core identity without the presence of a social structure to provide one for them.

quote:

It's also interesting to ponder what it means when a "dominant" exhibits this behavior. Can one really be thought of as "dominant" when their ethics and self-discipline are externally imposed?


Depends on the jargon being used. The thing you and I might refer to as being a master, that thing I've not seen coexisting with socially defined identity. The thing usually referred to by that term, well, is not the same thing. Same word, different meaning.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Interesting Article about Rude Behaviour Online - 12/24/2012 11:10:26 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
when anonymous or drunk, a normally repressed person will change character to being more honestly themselves

IWYW,
— Aswad.

ahhhh.. so if i start dating a guy and want to see his honest self, I should get him drunk... ok, got it!..

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RE: Interesting Article about Rude Behaviour Online - 12/24/2012 11:13:45 AM   
TwoHeartsBeatOne


Posts: 479
Joined: 10/30/2012
Status: offline 		1. Generally speaking, what is "rude" in one culture, cannot be assumed to be rude in another.

A few decades ago, Philadelphians were voted as being "the most loud, rude and aggressive" Americans. Philadelphia responded to the "WIN" with impromptu block parties across the city. LOL

(Remember Elton's song - dancing in the streets - Philadelphia Freedom) To us, what had been perceived as rude, was really honesty, the courage to express it and the ovaries to expect the same from others.

In Ireland, polite behavior is when a host offers a tea 3 times and the guest says no twice. The third time, the guest says, "Well, that would be lovely, if you're making tea anyway." In Philly, that would be rude as hell. Don't waste my time like that!

2. The internet is a global culture. Struggles with tolerance abound. "Garbage in; garbage out," the saying about computers, really fits life in general. It's the technical version of the spiritual concept of karma. What goes around:comes around. You reap what you sow.

3. So, yes, I conduct myself online AND offline in the same way - as if my choices were seen and judged by all, at all times; as if my words have power and as if strangers were people I love. I deliberately treat liars rudely. Perhaps I get sarcastic, or condescending or simply - dismissive.

4. Alternatives to this exist in Second Life, an online, imaginary friend(s) society in which others are aware that you are playing as an imaginary identity, too.

5. I exist within the humanity of consent and of fair play. That simply does not change when communicate through a computer, a phone or am physically present using my body in some way. (words, deeds, running in the other direction...)

THAT is why this topic pertains to BDSM. If we initially meet here, then the culture of trust here matters. I can't do a darn thing about how others choose "to be." My limitation, my power - is to add to a culture of safety, honesty and tolerance, through my own choices.

If people are more rude online because they have lowered their social standards, denied their identities and feel an inflated sense of freedom from repercussions, then making worthwhile connections becomes... "chasing unicorns."

While never perfect, at the end of the day... I meet my own standard:

"Do as you will: but harm none."


_____________________________

"Anything I can not transform into something marvelous, I let go. Reality doesn't impress me. I only believe in intoxication, in ecstasy, and when ordinary life shackles me, I escape, one way or another. No more walls.”
― Anaïs Nin

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RE: Interesting Article about Rude Behaviour Online - 12/24/2012 11:16:23 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Probably because nobody's going to give you a job working a till if you can read the customer's body language perfectly, but can't give them the correct change.


Ah, yes, I keep forgetting... production, not living... living is for the next stage of human civilization, not this one, and it'll come about by mere chance, or by magic, or the actions of the enlightened few who get it. Oh, wait... those enlightened few are consistently ignored, and chance isn't doing its job; guess it's down to magic then, like all advances... sigh.

I never had any trouble dealing with multiple subjects at once; I don't imagine you did, either.

It's possible to be a clerk and a human at the same time.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


Have you never worked in retail? They don't pay clerks to be human.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Aswad)
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