Do Legal Visitors to The USA have "Freedom Of Speech" Rights? (Full Version)

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Fightdirecto -> Do Legal Visitors to The USA have "Freedom Of Speech" Rights? (12/24/2012 9:42:10 AM)

Pissed off Gun Lovers Call For Englishman's Deportation

quote:

Tens of thousands of people have signed a petition calling for British CNN host Piers Morgan to be deported from the U.S. over his gun control views.

Morgan has taken an aggressive stand for tighter U.S. gun laws in the wake of the Newtown, Connecticut, school shooting. Last week, he called a gun advocate appearing on his "Piers Morgan Tonight" show an "unbelievably stupid man."

Now, gun rights activists are fighting back. A petition created Dec. 21 on the White House e-petition website by a user in Texas accuses Morgan of engaging in a "hostile attack against the U.S. Constitution" by targeting the Second Amendment. It demands he be deported immediately for "exploiting his position as a national network television host to stage attacks against the rights of American citizens."

The petition has already hit the 25,000 signature threshold to get a White House response. By Monday, it had 31,813 signatures.

Morgan seemed unfazed — and even amused — by the movement.

Strongly reminds me of the re-naming of "french fries" to "Freedom fries" silliness because the French did not support the Cheney invasion and occupation of Iraq.

Damn foreigners! Don't they understand that:

• Americans know more than non-Americans about every subject;

• Americans are more loved by God than non-Americans ;

Jews are no longer God's "chosen People" - Americans are;

• The United States has the only good government in the world and all other nations' governments are inferior;

Non-Americans should do everything Americans tell them to do;

Non-Americans should not do anything Americans tell them not to do.

American exceptionalism - Anyone not an American is, ipso facto, a second-class citizen in the world and should just accept that "fact".




Hillwilliam -> RE: Do Legal Visitors to The USA have "Freedom Of Speech" Rights? (12/24/2012 9:43:31 AM)

I'd call it a "Freedom of the Press" issue more than of Speech.




Fightdirecto -> RE: Do Legal Visitors to The USA have "Freedom Of Speech" Rights? (12/24/2012 9:47:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

I'd call it a "Freedom of the Press" issue more than of Speech.

Ah - but there will be those "American Exceptionalists" who will claim that Morgan has no "rights" of either "speech" or "press" because he isn't an American - he's just just a Englishman (and therefore a lesser human being compared to an American) employed by an American cable news company.




Hillwilliam -> RE: Do Legal Visitors to The USA have "Freedom Of Speech" Rights? (12/24/2012 9:53:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

I'd call it a "Freedom of the Press" issue more than of Speech.

Ah - but there will be those "American Exceptionalists" who will claim that Morgan has no "rights" of either "speech" or "press" because he isn't an American - he's just just a Englishman (and therefore a lesser human being compared to an American) employed by an American cable news company.


Due to his employment by "the press". The dumbasses can take their petition and stick it up their ass as "freedom of speech" matters not a whit.[8D]




Politesub53 -> RE: Do Legal Visitors to The USA have "Freedom Of Speech" Rights? (12/24/2012 10:05:37 AM)

Got to love the duplicity of those trying to get Morgan deported. They need guns to protect from a tyranical state and support free speech, only if one agrees with them.

Whats American for "irony"




tj444 -> RE: Do Legal Visitors to The USA have "Freedom Of Speech" Rights? (12/24/2012 11:40:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto
Morgan has taken an aggressive stand for tighter U.S. gun laws in the wake of the Newtown, Connecticut, school shooting. Last week, he called a gun advocate appearing on his "Piers Morgan Tonight" show an "unbelievably stupid man."

Now, gun rights activists are fighting back. A petition created Dec. 21 on the White House e-petition website by a user in Texas accuses Morgan of engaging in a "hostile attack against the U.S. Constitution" by targeting the Second Amendment. It demands he be deported immediately for "exploiting his position as a national network television host to stage attacks against the rights of American citizens."

yeah,.. that makes Morgan a "terrorist" (just as Assange was accused of being a "terrorist") and since Morgan in not American, subject to unlimited detention.. That'll shut him up!




Zonie63 -> RE: Do Legal Visitors to The USA have "Freedom Of Speech" Rights? (12/24/2012 11:52:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

I'd call it a "Freedom of the Press" issue more than of Speech.

Ah - but there will be those "American Exceptionalists" who will claim that Morgan has no "rights" of either "speech" or "press" because he isn't an American - he's just just a Englishman (and therefore a lesser human being compared to an American) employed by an American cable news company.


I don't know if I would read this as being a lesser human being compared to an American. I've often seen where Americans might try to comment or intervene in some overseas situation, and the locals there might want us to butt out of their internal affairs. I don't think it means that they think we're lesser human beings, but just outsiders who may not be able to truly understand the situation as the local inhabitants do.

But, I don't think this constitutes any basis for deportation, since visitors to the U.S. do have freedom of speech and press. I think at some point in the past, they could deport non-citizens if they were deemed unfriendly to the United States, although I'm not sure if they can do that today. Maybe they still can. I vaguely remember John Lennon winding up on Nixon's enemies list and facing possible deportation, but I don't know if anything like that has happened recently.












LafayetteLady -> RE: Do Legal Visitors to The USA have "Freedom Of Speech" Rights? (12/24/2012 12:14:30 PM)

There are plenty of American's screaming for tighter gun control as well, so while I think Morgan is an asshole (for many more reasons than this issue), he has the right to his opinion, and his opinion in this instance, is nothing more than words.  Since the shootings in Connecticut, people are foolishly crying out for stricter gun control, and that simply is not going to solve the problem.  The problem is how mental health issues are dealt with and monitored, but that would be another thread entirely.

As for whether or not non-citizens are entitled to the same freedoms as Americans, of course they are.  And face it, that is one reason many people come to the US.  I do believe there should be limits, however.  A good example would have been the people who cheered and threw parties after 9/11.  They should have been deported, and if they were citizens of the US, they should have been kicked out or imprisoned.  Their response to that tragedy was disgusting.

But for the most part, opinions are just individual thoughts, with no more weight than the next person's.




jlf1961 -> RE: Do Legal Visitors to The USA have "Freedom Of Speech" Rights? (12/24/2012 12:15:56 PM)

Dont deport him...

Drop him in south central LA and see how long he goes without asking for a gun.




Powergamz1 -> RE: Do Legal Visitors to The USA have "Freedom Of Speech" Rights? (12/24/2012 12:25:59 PM)

'Brit'...
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Got to love the duplicity of those trying to get Morgan deported. They need guns to protect from a tyranical state and support free speech, only if one agrees with them.

Whats American for "irony"





Politesub53 -> RE: Do Legal Visitors to The USA have "Freedom Of Speech" Rights? (12/24/2012 12:27:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

'Brit'...
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Got to love the duplicity of those trying to get Morgan deported. They need guns to protect from a tyranical state and support free speech, only if one agrees with them.

Whats American for "irony"





This is all you can do isnt it. Name call instead of actually debating the problems.




Lucylastic -> RE: Do Legal Visitors to The USA have "Freedom Of Speech" Rights? (12/24/2012 12:31:47 PM)

he gave his opinion, he hasnt broken any laws, hes just pissed of a bunch of americans for saying what he thinks...

freedom of speech covers furrigners




seekingOwnertoo -> RE: Do Legal Visitors to The USA have "Freedom Of Speech" Rights? (12/24/2012 12:36:53 PM)

Diplomats to the United Nations, and those under their passports are not covered under US Laws .. only international and their own country.

The press ... under the US Constitution ... Freedom of the Press ... you know! ROFL

That said, so WHAT if Americans such as you don't agree with him?

I happen to think he is right ..

and THAT is freedom!




DaddySatyr -> RE: Do Legal Visitors to The USA have "Freedom Of Speech" Rights? (12/24/2012 12:39:26 PM)

This is one of those multi-faceted issues into which I LOVE to sink my teeth.

This gentleman is not an American and while I don't think that makes him dumb, it makes his opinion on how my country aught to be governed/run un-important to me.

Of course, he's a member of the press and the press is also represented in that beautiful first amendment.

What people keep forgetting is that the first amendment is a "shield" for the citizen against government prosecuting them for speaking out.

True, this man isn't a citizen but I have always taken the belief that no matter who the person is, if they are in our country, legally, the constitution has to stand for them, as well or our lofty standards become meaningless.

I think the man is a complete fuckwit and moron but, he has a right to be whatever he chooses to be.

Another petition I won't be signing.



Peace and comfort,



Michael




Fellow -> RE: Do Legal Visitors to The USA have "Freedom Of Speech" Rights? (12/24/2012 12:42:17 PM)

Morgan is part of the mainstream media, his job is to spread propaganda. He is a spokesperson not a journalist. Hid deportation would not solve much, some other person would present "news" and "his own" opinions. The propaganda today is sophisticated, it is done in a stealthy manner.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCwKj8B3uCM&feature=player_embedded




Politesub53 -> RE: Do Legal Visitors to The USA have "Freedom Of Speech" Rights? (12/24/2012 12:51:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fellow

Morgan is part of the mainstream media, his job is to spread propaganda. He is a spokesperson not a journalist. Hid deportation would not solve much, some other person would present "news" and "his own" opinions. The propaganda today is sophisticated, it is done in a stealthy manner.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCwKj8B3uCM&feature=player_embedded



This is more nonsense from you. Morgan isnt a spokesperson for anybody. He is a self opinionated wanker among other things. But he does have the right to free speech.

Your conspiracy theories have loosened a few screws.




Powergamz1 -> RE: Do Legal Visitors to The USA have "Freedom Of Speech" Rights? (12/24/2012 12:53:05 PM)

While you are looking up 'irony', also look up 'projection'.

The irony of the sycophants for decaying neo-colonialism pointing jingoistic fingers at what they've created, is self evident.

As is the projection of someone who hides behind the mods to call people 'pricks'.

In any case, your derailing attempt has failed, unless you engage in rational discussion using facts, you'll be talking to yourself as far as I'm concerned.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

'Brit'...
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Got to love the duplicity of those trying to get Morgan deported. They need guns to protect from a tyranical state and support free speech, only if one agrees with them.

Whats American for "irony"





This is all you can do isnt it. Name call instead of actually debating the problems.





tazzygirl -> RE: Do Legal Visitors to The USA have "Freedom Of Speech" Rights? (12/24/2012 12:55:42 PM)

~FR

The view that foreign nationals do not deserve the same constitutional protections as U.S. citizens was given some support in April 2003 when a divided Supreme Court in Demore v. Kim3 upheld a 1996 statute imposing mandatory detention on foreign nationals charged with being deportable for having committed certain crimes. The statute at issue mandated detention pending the adjudication of the deportation hearing even where, as in Kim's case, the government agreed that detention was not necessary, because the individual posed neither a flight risk nor a danger and could be released on bond. For the first time ever outside the war setting, the Court in Kim upheld categorical preventive detention without any individualized assessment of the need for detention. And the majority did so by expressly invoking a double standard, claiming that in regUlating immigration, "Congress regularly makes rules that would be unacceptable if applied to citizens."4 Yet fifty years earlier, the Court had stated that the Due Process Clause does not "acknowledge[] any distinction between citizens and resident aliens."5


Are foreign nationals entitled only to reduced rights and freedoms? The difficulty of the question is reflected in the deeply ambivalent approach of the Supreme Court, an ambivalence matched only by the alternately xenophobic and xenophilic
attitude of the American public toward immigrants. On the one hand, the Court has insisted for more than a century that foreign nationals living among us are "persons" within the meaning of the Constitution, and are protected by those rights that the Constitution does not expressly reserve to citizens. Because the Constitution expressly limits to citizens only the rights to vote and to run for federal elective office, equality between non-nationals and citizens would appear to be the constitutional rule.

On the other hand, the Court has permitted foreign nationals to be excluded and expelled because of their race. It has allowed them to be deported for political associations that were entirely lawful at the time they were engaged in? It has upheld laws barring foreign nationals from owning land, even where the laws were a transparent cover for anti-Japanese racism. It has
permitted the indefinite detention of "arriving aliens" stopped at the border on the basis of secret evidence that they could not confront.9 And it has allowed states to bar otherwise qualified foreign nationals from employment as public school teachers and police officers, based solely on their status as foreigners.lO

Given this record, it is not surprising that many members of the general public presume that noncitizens do not deserve the same rights as citizens. II But the presumption is wrong in many more respects than it is right. While some distinctions between foreign nationals and citizens are normatively justified and consistent with constitutional and international law, most are not. The significance of the citizen/noncitizen distinction is more often presumed than carefully examined. Upon examination, there is far less to the distinction than commonly thought. In particular, foreign nationals are generally entitled to the equal protection of the laws, to political freedoms of speech and association, and to due process requirements of fair procedure where their lives, liberty, or property are at stake.



Link

A very interesting read that continues. It might be helpful to some to actually read this.




Politesub53 -> RE: Do Legal Visitors to The USA have "Freedom Of Speech" Rights? (12/24/2012 12:55:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

While you are looking up 'irony', also look up 'projection'.

The irony of the sycophants for decaying neo-colonialism pointing jingoistic fingers at what they've created, is self evident.

As is the projection of someone who hides behind the mods to call people 'pricks'.

In any case, your derailing attempt has failed, unless you engage in rational discussion using facts, you'll be talking to yourself as far as I'm concerned.



Missing you already.

Edits to add....... you must be a sock puppet if you think I am hiding behind the mods. At least im using the same profile since I joined in 2005. I have also had my fair share of Gold CMs and mostly rightly deserved.




Powergamz1 -> RE: Do Legal Visitors to The USA have "Freedom Of Speech" Rights? (12/24/2012 1:04:00 PM)

As written, that misses the mark.
Someone in the US on a passport is most cerainly covered by US laws, either as a victim, or as a criminal.
Diplomatic immunity is quite overstated in the entertainment media, the notion of a diplomat running amok with impunity is pretty far-fetched.

All that Morgan has suffered is a boost in his own paycheck with all the attention over the fact that he has succeeded in pissing off a whopping 0.001 of the population.

In most places that would be called a 'slow news day'.




quote:

ORIGINAL: seekingOwnertoo

Diplomats to the United Nations, and those under their passports are not covered under US Laws .. only international and their own country.

The press ... under the US Constitution ... Freedom of the Press ... you know! ROFL

That said, so WHAT if Americans such as you don't agree with him?

I happen to think he is right ..

and THAT is freedom!






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