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RE: Damn Those Overpaid, Unionized, Public School Teach... - 12/25/2012 7:50:46 PM

MrRodgers

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ElChupa

Take any big city school district and look at the performance. Tell me why these teachers should still have a job. Of course, one good reason to keep them is their forced union dues end up in democrat party coffers. Having been raised in Michigan, I can tell you I was stunned, shocked, and delighted that they went right to work. Nothing like a frothing union thug to entertain. Threatening "there will be blood." Now is that the kind of civil discourse we can expect more of from these caring democrats?

I agree, most people saved their 'shocked and stunned' when they look at all $30-$40,000 a year going to interest payments, taxes, utilities, food transportation, life-shortening, maximized, profitable health care, and essentially a lifetime of debt with...nothing left over but more debt.

I prefer my thuggery from the greedy capitalist scum running this country, the ones we treat like the royalty we hypocritically make the richest socialists in history. We all know just who they are too, that legalized mob running the casino of America...that will end this country.

(in reply to ElChupa)

Post #: 21

RE: Damn Those Overpaid, Unionized, Public School Teach... - 12/25/2012 8:27:43 PM

JeffBC

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cordeliasub
But I am sick of people who wouldn't make it one WEEK in a room full of kids deriding what I do. 99% of the teachers I know pour blood, sweat, and tears into every kid they teach.

Tough. The bottom line is that we pay your salary for a service you provide to our children. So yes, we are going to have an opinion about how our money is spent and our children raised. While I understand the allure of "Why the fuck won't you all just go away and leave me alone to do my job" the real world just doesn't work that way.

quote:

Do we REALLY want to see our CHILDREN as products? I mean, do we really want to treat them like ipads or pie charts or quarterly reports? Let's get real....we are talking children. Not inanimate objects. Anyone who knows anything about either children or education knows you cannot apply some dry business model to the minds of growing human beings. I believe every child CAN learn and every child CAN progress......I do not believe that every single child in every school building in America can read on grade level by third grade. I do not believe every child can pass advanced algebra (I mean actually doing unmodified work). Not every kid is going to start on the football team. not every child will write an award winning essay. Children have different intelligences, and until we stop looking at a bubbled-in high stkes test and start looking at our kids....we aren't going to get it.

I don't really know what to make of that whole diatribe other than "wow... glad you're not teaching my kids". Yes, I care about the performance of our schools. Because I do care, I want to apply measurements and study and processes in an effort to really figure out how to make it better. I want to reward teachers and schools who find ways to do better. I want to get rid of those who cannot do that. Yup... it's cold-hearted and merciless. I'm sorry if rigor offends your artistic mindset but hugs & kisses offends my engineering mindset when we're talking about one of the most important things our nation does.

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Post #: 22

RE: Damn Those Overpaid, Unionized, Public School Teach... - 12/25/2012 8:35:55 PM

tazzygirl

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quote:

I'm sorry if rigor offends your artistic mindset but hugs & kisses offends my engineering mindset when we're talking about one of the most important things our nation does.

It is one of the most important. Yet its one of those things we expect to be done cheaper, and is often a thankless job.

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Post #: 23

RE: Damn Those Overpaid, Unionized, Public School Teach... - 12/25/2012 8:46:20 PM

DesideriScuri

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Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ElChupa
Take any big city school district and look at the performance. Tell me why these teachers should still have a job. Of course, one good reason to keep them is their forced union dues end up in democrat party coffers. Having been raised in Michigan, I can tell you I was stunned, shocked, and delighted that they went right to work. Nothing like a frothing union thug to entertain. Threatening "there will be blood." Now is that the kind of civil discourse we can expect more of from these caring democrats?

Want to know why those teachers still have jobs? Perhaps it's because it's not the educational system that is failing the kids. I really like how you have focused on "big city schools." Their performance ratings tend to be worse, and sometimes much worse. Why? Part of it is urban sprawl to the 'burbs. Those without the means end up stuck in the big city schools. Many times, those with the means get out, and those tend to also be the households where the parent(s) is involved in the school work of the child.

I have a 3rd grader that scored in the 99th percentile of all 3rd graders taking a scholastic aptitude test for math. Was it the teachers, or was it his Mom and I making school important? Would he have scored as high had he gone to a "lower performance" school? Probably not much, if at all. But, we did move out to a 'burb with the quality of the schools being a key factor. Well run, acceptable level of taxation, and located in a much safer and stable environment. The schools we left would score just a bit lower for my son not attending there.

The big city schools are fucked over and over again because of the lack of parental responsibility. I have a fellow assistance baseball coach that teaches in an inner city elementary school that is one of many elementary schools in a large city school district. He teaches kids that get dropped off at 7 am, eat a school-provided breakfast, get a school-provided (or reduced cost) lunch and then don't get picked up from after care until 7 or 8 pm. Some of those kids won't eat until dropped off at school the following morning, either. You think those kids are in a home environment conducive to learning? Some of those kids have only one parent, drunk parent(s), druggee parent(s), or a combo.

There are so many more things that schools are required to do outside of teaching. Unfortunately, the powers that be have decided that throwing more money at schools is the way to improve education. Paying teachers a higher wage or offering better benefits is going to magically transform a teacher into a better teacher. Teachers have a job where the amount of grief given vastly outweighs the kudos.

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(in reply to ElChupa)

Post #: 24

RE: Damn Those Overpaid, Unionized, Public School Teach... - 12/25/2012 8:53:27 PM

JeffBC

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
It is one of the most important. Yet its one of those things we expect to be done cheaper, and is often a thankless job.

Well again, I'm not emperor. But if I was we'd be funding our schools like our military and our military like the schools. In the modern world an educated populace is a much more effective weapon anyway. Even more urgently, an educated populace is mandatory if you want to have a democracy and avoid it going batshit crazy.

DS's question to me was whether I had any ideas for practical implementation and I do not. In my mind all paths start at regaining control of our government so that we can even entertain questions like "how to balance military vs. infrastructure spending". As it sits right now, questions like that are uninteresting to the powers that be.

To the question of whether current teachers earn the right amount my own attitude is that it hardly matters. At 50k per year they can pay the bills and apparently we can hire them so that's enough to keep an ailing institution limping along. I'm not inclined to try to nitpick downwards and I'm sure as heck not inclined to want to pay more.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 25

RE: Damn Those Overpaid, Unionized, Public School Teach... - 12/25/2012 9:07:50 PM

NuevaVida

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

The big city schools are fucked over and over again because of the lack of parental responsibility.

It's not just just big city schools. One of my brothers teaches at a small town high school. I remember when he began his career, how excited he was. I also remember how shocked and disappointed he was when he spent every Friday afternoon calling every parent of every struggling kid and only about 5% of the parents responded.

Add to that, some of the kids missed a lot of school because their parents needed help at home.

He spends so much non-class-time time counseling kids, tutoring them, and doing what he can to help them succeed. It's fun visiting him because as we walk through the local grocery store (or anywhere in the area, actually), teens and parents alike are approaching him with friendly hellos. It's like he's famous there or something, it's hilarious.

There are 8 teachers in my immediate and extended family (well, two are retired now), and all but one of them talk so passionately about what they do, the kids in their classes, and their efforts to reach them. Going to the school rating websites, they get amazing remarks. Oddly though, I haven't heard them (except for the one) complain about their salaries, but they do talk about working into the evenings on lesson plans and grading, and they do start prepping for each school season weeks in advance.

I also know many of them provide extra supplies out of their own pockets, since those supplies aren't in the school budget.

My brother in the small town also coaches one of the sports teams, and spends a lot of time on fund raising.

Anyway, with the negative talk on teachers here, I just wanted to throw some positives out.

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Post #: 26

RE: Damn Those Overpaid, Unionized, Public School Teach... - 12/25/2012 9:13:27 PM

tazzygirl

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quote:

To the question of whether current teachers earn the right amount my own attitude is that it hardly matters. At 50k per year they can pay the bills and apparently we can hire them so that's enough to keep an ailing institution limping along. I'm not inclined to try to nitpick downwards and I'm sure as heck not inclined to want to pay more.

In my mind it does matter. And, quite frankly, until we weed out the bad and support the good, the system wont change. How does it change? They need to start changing it from within. In other words, when the teaching profession, as a whole, takes responsibility for the good as well as the bad and work from within to make necessary changes, those on the outside will only see them as barely giving a damn. We tend to see a profession from the bottom to the top. If the bottom layer is bad.. the top is good.. and we cant get rid of the bottom... no on e will see beyond that layer.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 12/25/2012 9:14:05 PM >

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 27

RE: Damn Those Overpaid, Unionized, Public School Teach... - 12/25/2012 9:25:14 PM

tj444

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
~FR~
Doncha think the article cited in the OP was a spoof? Seemed intentionally ludicrous. Have a look at the web site.

No, I don't think it was a spoof. I found it to be a creative way to change the discussion. The writer attempted to use a circuitous line of reasoning to get to the desired end-goal of supporting the idea that teachers are underpaid. It was clear to me what the author was doing.

I know a teacher in SoCal that gets paid $85k/yr, he lives in a 5-600,000 house (alone), he told me he will get about 2/3rds of his salary as his pension (plus his IRA), plus he has good medical.. he has seniority so he will never be laid off like new teachers could be.. he will be retiring well before 65 too (in his mid or late 50s?).. He does have a Masters but he has stayed at the same school all his career so likely that has allowed him to get yearly raises that got him where his pay is today.. he usually has money to travel each summer, or do renos on his house, even tho SoCal is an expensive place to live, he still has money to do those things..

The thing about what someone is paid is that its more than just the salary, its also the benefits they get such as the medical and also the pension they get & when they retire.. If this guy gets 2/3rds of his $85k/yr salary (or higher by the time he retires) at say 58.. and he lives to 80 years.. thats a lot of money taxpayers are paying for 20 or so years where he is retired and not teaching anyone.. But that is part of the reason why CA is going broke.. those public pensions..

just sayin'

eta- he also gets a certain number of paid sick days.. even if he isnt sick, he does take those days off..

< Message edited by tj444 -- 12/25/2012 9:27:06 PM >

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Post #: 28

RE: Damn Those Overpaid, Unionized, Public School Teach... - 12/26/2012 2:58:35 AM

DomKen

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FR

How can you people even be having this discussion? Teachers died at Sandy Hill. They died shielding their students with their bodies. They died standing between the madman and the hiding places of their children. How fucking much money would you pay someone knowing they would show that devotion to your child?

(in reply to tj444)

Post #: 29

RE: Damn Those Overpaid, Unionized, Public School Teach... - 12/26/2012 4:36:49 AM

Zonie63

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I never could understand why people pick on teachers so much, as if they're the whole problem with the educational system (or society as a whole, for that matter). I would look more at the administrators. How much of our education tax dollars go to the classrooms versus the administrators' salaries? Our local district here just closed a number of schools due to a $17 million shortfall, against the passionate appeals and pleas from parents, teachers, and students - while still keeping the fat bloated administrative salaries untouched.

One thing I've noticed is that because public schools are paid for with tax dollars, every political faction and its uncle decide they want to turn every school into some kind of political football field. Adults who can't come to terms about an issue seem to feel the need to settle it on the school grounds, whether it's a disagreement over religion, politics, history, or whatever. A good example is the fight over teaching Evolution vs. Creationism in the public schools. If adults want to debate this issue in public forums, it's their right - hold symposiums, prayer revival meetings, write books, produce movies/radio/tv shows - it's all cool. But why can't they leave the poor kids out of their petty disputes?

They might say that "it's all for the children," but I think schools have an obligation to teach children about the world as it exists, not as their parents (or politicians) wish it could be. There will always be good and bad teachers, along with good and bad parents, but I think the problem today is that there may be too many cooks. Every politician has an opinion on education and says they want what's best for the children. They always say that. There's always a lot of political, public, and media attention on the schools, almost like they're under a constant societal microscope. With all that attention, scrutiny, and meddling, it's mystifying that we haven't figured out what's wrong with the public schools by now.

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 30

RE: Damn Those Overpaid, Unionized, Public School Teach... - 12/26/2012 4:41:54 AM

JstAnotherSub

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quote:

Tough. The bottom line is that we pay your salary for a service you provide to our children. So yes, we are going to have an opinion about how our money is spent and our children raised. While I understand the allure of "Why the fuck won't you all just go away and leave me alone to do my job" the real world just doesn't work that way.

The thing is, success for one child is different for another. While straight A's may be the most awesome thing Sally can do, Jimmy learning that there are people who care about him at school this year may help him do better in the years following.

Helping a child who does not get regular meals and care at home, as well as helping their parents learn parenting skills, can be a success that means much more and lasts longer than straight A's.

There can be no one way to judge teachers, because there is no one kind of student with only one kind of needs.

So, while you may want me to spend all my time getting your child ready for Algebra, I can not do that if I have a child who is sick from lack of sleep, because mommy got her ass kicked by daddy at 3 am and she spent the night hiding under her bed.

It takes a village to raise and educate a child. And, sadly, I think our villages have gone to hell in a hand basket.

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Post #: 31

RE: Damn Those Overpaid, Unionized, Public School Teach... - 12/26/2012 4:46:10 AM

JstAnotherSub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

FR

How can you people even be having this discussion? Teachers died at Sandy Hill. They died shielding their students with their bodies. They died standing between the madman and the hiding places of their children. How fucking much money would you pay someone knowing they would show that devotion to your child?

Somewhere on here, I shared a letter from a parent that we all got the Monday after the tragedy. It is now, and I suspect always will be, the greatest compliment ever received, and it means more than money ever could.

That letter tells me that we are doing things right, we are successes at our jobs, from the custodians to the principal.

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Post #: 32

RE: Damn Those Overpaid, Unionized, Public School Teach... - 12/26/2012 4:57:28 AM

ChatteParfaitt

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FR

I have a certain amount of experience deal with teachers and professors, having volunteered in the Chgo public school system (which has a very strong union), been a parent advocate for disabled children in the same system, and worked at a 'big ten' university.

Most primary teachers are great, but some should not be allowed in the classroom. When there are issues with a particular teacher, I've found notifying the parents can be very helpful. (Please note this was in a magnet school, which is not the norm for the public school in Chgo. Parents have to 'get' their child into a magnet school, so there is going to be more parental involvement in the school).

Very often it is the system at fault when poor teachers are allowed to remain despite many complaints. Certainly the current 'don't teach the kids but make the kids pass the test' atmosphere is not one conducive to good education. Children are not being taught critical thinking skills, which is a shame.

Personally, I don't think teachers are paid enough, though I'd like to see a complete overhaul of the system here in the US.

Now professors are a different kettle of fish. Some become professors not to teach, but to do research. There are many good ones, but where I worked there were more who looked on their students are slaves to carry out their research. Teaching a class was literally at the bottom of the list, that's what the TA was for. Again, a shame, and again, the system is at fault.

Most people will do what they are allowed to get away with.

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Post #: 33

RE: Damn Those Overpaid, Unionized, Public School Teach... - 12/26/2012 5:55:50 AM

switchdavid69

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I agree. But teachers unions prevent weeding out the bad teachers. They are protected. Underpaid ? Maybe in some areas of the country. A new teacher starting in Milwaukee public school will have a starting salary of $ 41,000 in the fall of 2013. That does not include a benefit package close to $ 30,000.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 34

RE: Damn Those Overpaid, Unionized, Public School Teach... - 12/26/2012 6:11:15 AM

ElChupa

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I am the product of public schools. Yes, some can survive. In my case, because of my parents. I also went to public universities and have three graduate degrees. I survived that. Laughed at most of my leftist professors. I was not brainwashed. I think the very weakest amongst us would be subject to brainwashing. Every time I'd hear a pronouncement from one of those professors, I'd go and research it. Then make up my own mind. Anyway, we spend a TON of money on public education and really don't get very much for our money. Paying teachers more? You get the same lousy teachers, except they make more money. We keep incurring more and more public debt because personnel costs and benefits make up about 90 percent of the costs of any operation. Liberal/progressive/leftists/communists/socialists (whatever they call themselves today) don't give a whit about public spending. It's just more more more. Tax tax tax. For a bunch of compassionate people like these leftists, it sure is sad to see students in schools in Detroit, Chicago, and New York stuck in the public system. Meanwhile, the teachers and administrators there keep rolling in the cash. I had a cousin in the Detroit area who was a school administrator. He used to whine to me all the time, standard teacher/school system whine of "poor us, nobody loves us, so underpaid" crap. He was whining about that while sitting on the porch of his second summer home in the country. I found that deliciously silly. Soooo! Salutes to Michigan and Wisconsin for having the guts to do something about the problem. We also need total and complete school choice. For a party all about "choice" (you know, baby is inconvenient? kill him or her!) they really aren't about choice but about protecting the teachers unions, huge contributors to their Dear Leader and other fellow travelers in the demo party. As for the teachers... why not find another job? Dear Leader is presiding over the bestest economy in like forever right? So go out and get yourself an obamaphone and a new job!

(in reply to switchdavid69)

Post #: 35

RE: Damn Those Overpaid, Unionized, Public School Teach... - 12/26/2012 6:24:13 AM

Hillwilliam

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ElChupa

I am the product of public schools. Yes, some can survive. In my case, because of my parents. I also went to public universities and have three graduate degrees. So go out and get yourself an obamaphone and a new job!

I am surprised that someone who CLAIMS 3 graduate degrees is so ignorant that they don't realize that the so called "Obamaphone" is a program started by the Bush administration.

Note to mods. Websters defines 'ignorant' as 'lacking knowledge'

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Post #: 36

RE: Damn Those Overpaid, Unionized, Public School Teach... - 12/26/2012 6:28:00 AM

ElChupa

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Common union thug mentality... not very civil is it? Or maybe it is to a leftist. http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-12-11/michigan-governor-snyder-signs-ban-on-mandatory-union-dues "There will be blood."

This is a political problem with political solutions. I'm not interested in "compromise" with these idiots. They must be defeated. Their organizations starved. It's all about force with the left. Except when it comes to abortion. Then it is "choice." Oh and make sure every woman has thousands of dollars in contraceptives. I forgot about that.

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Post #: 37

RE: Damn Those Overpaid, Unionized, Public School Teach... - 12/26/2012 6:29:21 AM

JstAnotherSub

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quote:

Loretta Lynn: I'm gettin' so sick of baloney.
Doolittle: You are? Well, you know what they say about eatin' baloney, don't you?
Loretta Lynn: No, what?
Doolittle: Makes you horny.
Loretta Lynn: What does that mean?
Doolittle: [starts laughing] Are you so dadburn ignorant you don't know what horny means?
Loretta Lynn: No, what does it mean?
Doolittle: I ain't gonna tell you.
Share this quote

quote:

Loretta Lynn: [In the bathroom of the honkytonk when Doo is trying to convince her to sing on stage for the first time] Loretta says : "I may be ignorant, but I ain't stupid!"

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RE: Damn Those Overpaid, Unionized, Public School Teach... - 12/26/2012 6:33:30 AM

Phoenixpower

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

quote:

Tough. The bottom line is that we pay your salary for a service you provide to our children. So yes, we are going to have an opinion about how our money is spent and our children raised. While I understand the allure of "Why the fuck won't you all just go away and leave me alone to do my job" the real world just doesn't work that way.

The thing is, success for one child is different for another. While straight A's may be the most awesome thing Sally can do, Jimmy learning that there are people who care about him at school this year may help him do better in the years following.

Helping a child who does not get regular meals and care at home, as well as helping their parents learn parenting skills, can be a success that means much more and lasts longer than straight A's.

There can be no one way to judge teachers, because there is no one kind of student with only one kind of needs.

So, while you may want me to spend all my time getting your child ready for Algebra, I can not do that if I have a child who is sick from lack of sleep, because mommy got her ass kicked by daddy at 3 am and she spent the night hiding under her bed.

It takes a village to raise and educate a child. And, sadly, I think our villages have gone to hell in a hand basket.

Well said

I don't work as a teacher, I work as a team leader in the daycentre, where we take care of the kids until the parents pick them up (or some of the older ones go home on their own). There we have at times similar issues...during September, the first month we were opened, I worked on my own with 20 kids, as my colleague could not start until october and some parents were a real pain in the arse...expecting basically 1:1 support for their kids for the 2 bucks they pay us per hour (which include warm cooked food from our cook and snack time before they go home)...now, if all Kids would be have like many of our kids do....well yep, then all would be a piece of cake...cause then the kids would just sit down during their homework time do their stuff and I can go along and help them where necessary....but as we have about half of them who display more difficult behaviour (not surprising when they get shit like coke during the first year of school already and get told by school and by us that we don't allow fuzzy drinks here) with flooding their homework if they get a chance to do it, with just being loud all the fucking time, which then of course disturbs the well behaved kids, too....then 20 kids can be quite a lot during homework on your own...and then moaning parents "why did s/he not complete the homework?!" Ahem...we have one hour homework time...what s/he doesnt get done, needs to get done at home...we are not teachers, we are not a schoolwork facilty...we only provide an hour time for it and help when we can...but we work mainly on other stuff, such as improving behaviour and providing play time which some of those kids don't have at home either...though we also do make exceptions when we know it is important, as it is with one kid where I realised recently, that her father can neither read nor write and he was glad that she was finished with homework as he can't help and mum won't come home until midnight...so since I know that, this girl is sitting on her homework until she is finished with it completely...cause she has not much help at home....but the main focus is in our work not the homework, no matter how pestering parents can be in that matter

As parents they still have a fucking job to do, too...

now...since october my colleague is with me and we do homework in 2 seperate rooms, so the atmosphere improved big time...but nevertheless of course we still have about half of the kids who struggle a lot with their concentration and so prefer to do nonsense during that time...and so they take away a lot of attention (though I do have times I do chuck those ones out as then quite frankly its the job of their parent to do them at home with them)...and whilst some of our trouble makers improved since we started the box with little gifts for good enough behaviour...i disagree to some parents who say "you should have started that earlier, then he would have been easier from the start."....ahem...nope...you cow should place importance on parenting at home, then we would not need this for your son!!!

In November I had the situation, where I locked myself into our room with the kids once, when one of our most disturbing kid wanted to throw a chair into the crowd of the other kids...as I work since many years with challenging kids I have seen it on time and took the chair away from him before he could do so...and I made clear to him that he is no threat to me when he walked with the scissor towards me...so he put it back into his school bag...

that was also the last day that he visited out daycentre and as I heard now, he is now in a childrens home, which is the right place for him for the next time, cause he needs the smaller group setting...

on that occassion I did not lock us in out of fear but to get the situation calmer faster, cause with doing so, the kids could eat their meal in peace as he could not come in anmore, and my manager could work on it, getting him out of our daycenter (as he still tried for a while to get into our room)...and there, quite frankly, I am glad that we don't have guns easily available here...as IMO he would have been at risk of using it, due to not looking far enough ahead of the consequences for doing so...

anyhow...whilst it is difficult for me to explain...i do know what it is on the side of looking after the kids, even when I am not a teacher and whilst I think they could do with significantly less holidays...(especially with the lack of staff in my field over here, they could provide some daycare service, too (or for example school-lessons for the weaker pupils) during half of those 6 weeks summer holiday over here....would not harm them either and they would still have way more holiday then the rest of us AND would potentially even to get to know the kids better...

_____________________________

RIP 08-09-07

The PAST is history, the FUTURE a mystery, NOW is a gift - that's why it's called the PRESENT

www.butyoudontlooksick.com/navigation/BYDLS-TheSpoonTheory.pdf

(in reply to JstAnotherSub)

Post #: 39

RE: Damn Those Overpaid, Unionized, Public School Teach... - 12/26/2012 8:00:08 AM

Hillwilliam

Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ElChupa

Common union thug mentality... not very civil is it? Or maybe it is to a leftist. http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-12-11/michigan-governor-snyder-signs-ban-on-mandatory-union-dues "There will be blood."

This is a political problem with political solutions. I'm not interested in "compromise" with these idiots. They must be defeated. Their organizations starved. It's all about force with the left. Except when it comes to abortion. Then it is "choice." Oh and make sure every woman has thousands of dollars in contraceptives. I forgot about that.

How can someone who CLAIMS 3 graduate degrees make statements that have absolutely nothing to do with the op.

Common right wing mentality. "There will be abject ignorance"

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to ElChupa)

Post #: 40

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