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ORIGINAL: graceadieu

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
spanxalot15, you are barking up the wrong tree with me. In the Toledo area, brand-spanking new teachers are paid around $30k, unless they have a Master's Degree, which gets them a bump of $5k/yr. more. $30k for 9 months isn't really all that bad, and it spares you the expense of summer child care, if you so choose.

So, assuming the teacher works 60 hours a week for 40 weeks, which seems pretty much in line with what I've seen, that's.... $12.50/hour, the same as what I used to make in retail as an hourly supervisor, a job which required a high school diploma and a drug test.

I suppose at least there's more room for growth?

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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ORIGINAL: Thaz

Intresting.

Its a fair point that all Major parties are but coalitions under one banner. The issues start to occur when one banner or faction gets a monopoly of the vote. The US republicans are in danger of becoming unelectable as they have not moved with changing demographics. You would assume 'market forces' will mean they either will or be replaced. As happened to the Liberal party in the UK after WW II.

However it can happen. Norway have had effectively single party rule for a great many years now despite being a democracy in name....

The irony is that the GOP, the party that idolises market forces, has narrowed its brand and demonized large groups of potential "consumers."

Do you think effective single party rule in Norway might be abetted by the small and rather homogenious population? I cannot imagine successful single party rule in a nation of 330 million, can you?

ETA the CP in China seems to be somewhat shakey.

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Lowering the status and remuneration of teachers is not going to improve American education which like many other western countries is going backwards for many reasons that aren't strictly educational but cultural.
1. A teacher, no matter how good, cannot do much with a child who has had its head fucked up for four years by its parents using the TV as a baby sitter.

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2. A child who can't read or count when it goes to school, will almost always be behind a child who can read when and count it starts school. Children need to be socialised into education, it can't be done on a 9-5 part time basis.

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3. Macho-culture is anti-educational.

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4. Superficial video games are known to damage a child's ability to concentrate on activities that require a high degree of intellectual thought.
I could go on. Teachers have a thankless task in an anti-intellectual culture which the west is becoming and the idea that teachers don't deserve their renumeration is an indication of that. If teaching is seen as a parasitic job that anyone could do, it is no wonder education is going backwards in the west.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

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You can't force a school district and/or the individual teachers to compensate for the students' home environment woes. There is only one way to make sure each and every child has a stable home environment that fosters academic success, but taking kids away from their homes to a State-run home isn't an acceptable answer, especially since you'd have to mandate it.

Perhaps there should be more "military" schools where the worst offenders are forced by the State to attend. Each community would have one and students would be isolated from their lacking home environments.

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I have an awful lot of appreciation for the service teachers are supposed to provide. And, if we'd actually allow them to concentrate on provision of that service, I wholeheartedly believe that we would see improvements in the system, the education of the children, and our global ranking (which I think isn't as important as many seem to). And, I do think that the teaching profession does offer gain in areas that can't be financially compensated (how many teachers do not enjoy simply teaching?). Talk to a teacher about what they love about teaching and they'll tell you about the look on a child's face as a lesson sinks in and the child finally "gets it." They'll talk about touching a child's life, making some small gesture towards a student that turns a kid's life around. That shit happens, and it's all due to those who choose to teach (remember, none of them didn't get forced into a classroom, nor did they go in no knowing it wasn't going to be easy, nor did they go in without knowing the ballpark pay scale).

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ORIGINAL: thishereboi

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ORIGINAL: graceadieu

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
spanxalot15, you are barking up the wrong tree with me. In the Toledo area, brand-spanking new teachers are paid around $30k, unless they have a Master's Degree, which gets them a bump of $5k/yr. more. $30k for 9 months isn't really all that bad, and it spares you the expense of summer child care, if you so choose.

So, assuming the teacher works 60 hours a week for 40 weeks, which seems pretty much in line with what I've seen, that's.... $12.50/hour, the same as what I used to make in retail as an hourly supervisor, a job which required a high school diploma and a drug test.

I suppose at least there's more room for growth?

why would you assume they work 60 hours a week? In this area they work around 40 hours a week. If I did the math right that is about 18.75 an hour for a starting teacher.

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

There are two ways of looking at this. What is the level of responsibility demanded of a teacher, and is the level of compensation commensurate with that level of responsibility. As things stand right now, I do not believe teacher pay is commensurate with the level of responsibility. To qualify that, though, I fully believe the level of responsibility is the problem, not the pay. Too much is required. Reduce that demand, and the pay becomes commensurate.

[edited to fix a formatting mistake]

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

FR

Ya know....

The line of people who would take a job for $50k at 9 months with benefits and job security would circle the equator...

Really? Why do most school districts struggle to find qualified teahcers then?

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

ETA: Let me emphasize, teaching is a Performing Art. It is Showtime seven or eight hours everyday, five days a week. Nevermind the take home work. It is insulting to measure the teachers' art by an hourly wage.

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ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

FR

Ya know....

The line of people who would take a job for $50k at 9 months with benefits and job security would circle the equator...

Really? Why do most school districts struggle to find qualified teahcers then?

No... not most... just the ones with high crime

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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I have an awful lot of appreciation for the service teachers are supposed to provide. And, if we'd actually allow them to concentrate on provision of that service, I wholeheartedly believe that we would see improvements in the system, the education of the children, and our global ranking (which I think isn't as important as many seem to). And, I do think that the teaching profession does offer gain in areas that can't be financially compensated (how many teachers do not enjoy simply teaching?). Talk to a teacher about what they love about teaching and they'll tell you about the look on a child's face as a lesson sinks in and the child finally "gets it." They'll talk about touching a child's life, making some small gesture towards a student that turns a kid's life around. That shit happens, and it's all due to those who choose to teach (remember, none of them didn't get forced into a classroom, nor did they go in no knowing it wasn't going to be easy, nor did they go in without knowing the ballpark pay scale).

Thank you, DS. Your comments are much appreciated by this retired high school teacher.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
There are two ways of looking at this. What is the level of responsibility demanded of a teacher, and is the level of compensation commensurate with that level of responsibility. As things stand right now, I do not believe teacher pay is commensurate with the level of responsibility. To qualify that, though, I fully believe the level of responsibility is the problem, not the pay. Too much is required. Reduce that demand, and the pay becomes commensurate.
[edited to fix a formatting mistake]

The fact you can ask for examples shows you are not informed about the educational standards of western chidren when they enter schools. Most children haven't begun to learn to read before they go to school, that is a fact. Macho culture has been identified as anti-learning, particularly amongst black boys and poorer white boys.
The teacher should be employed to teach, not to be a surrogate parent. Once the teacher has to socialise children, which is an impossible task, time is being taken away from actually teaching the children. As for the level of pay being commensuratw with responsibility, we have seen a trend in the west where teachers no longer have professional respect and teaching has become a tick box exercise, causing many teachers to simply walk away and get a job elsewhere that has less responsibility and a higher remuneration. I have to admit, I left teaching mainly because the job had been turned into a production line job by politicians and when the renumeration and responsibility was taken into consideration, the choice to walk away was easy.
I do occasionally teach in tertiary education just for the money but I would never ever consider teaching children again, it's a mugs game.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

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why would you assume they work 60 hours a week? In this area they work around 40 hours a week. If I did the math right that is about 18.75 an hour for a starting teacher.

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ORIGINAL: Aylee

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

ETA: Let me emphasize, teaching is a Performing Art. It is Showtime seven or eight hours everyday, five days a week. Nevermind the take home work. It is insulting to measure the teachers' art by an hourly wage.

And I damn Seasame Street for this. 

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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ORIGINAL: thishereboi

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ORIGINAL: graceadieu

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
spanxalot15, you are barking up the wrong tree with me. In the Toledo area, brand-spanking new teachers are paid around $30k, unless they have a Master's Degree, which gets them a bump of $5k/yr. more. $30k for 9 months isn't really all that bad, and it spares you the expense of summer child care, if you so choose.

So, assuming the teacher works 60 hours a week for 40 weeks, which seems pretty much in line with what I've seen, that's.... $12.50/hour, the same as what I used to make in retail as an hourly supervisor, a job which required a high school diploma and a drug test.

I suppose at least there's more room for growth?

why would you assume they work 60 hours a week? In this area they work around 40 hours a week. If I did the math right that is about 18.75 an hour for a starting teacher.

I wonder if you also calculate the number of hours a unionized football player works during his four months of earning $3 million. Or is he being paid for the skills he brings to his employment? Teachers employ personal skills and art to achieve their tasks of nurturing and encouraging the growth of young people. And, in part we are performers on stage each and everyday. Surely worthy of more than an hourly wage on an assembly line in a factory repeating the same standardized task day in and day out.

ETA: Let me emphasize, teaching is a Performing Art. It is Showtime seven or eight hours everyday, five days a week. Nevermind the take home work. It is insulting to measure the teachers' art by an hourly wage.

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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ORIGINAL: Aylee

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

ETA: Let me emphasize, teaching is a Performing Art. It is Showtime seven or eight hours everyday, five days a week. Nevermind the take home work. It is insulting to measure the teachers' art by an hourly wage.

And I damn Seasame Street for this. 

Perhaps you are right. Perhaps we are competing with television, movies, video games, and online communities. But, I don't mean we are there to entertain. Even without the competition, the successful teacher learns to use drama, narrative, humor, and visual effects to keep the attention of hormonally raging teens and lead them to thinking, understanding, and knowledge. Otherwise, the teacher is no teacher, but a witless, boring, authoritarian lecturerer who is unable to explain the restless rebellion of her charges. The successful teacher is the one who breaks down the fourth wall and touches each student personally and supports their dignity. It has nothing to do with Sesame Street but everything to do with the nature of teenagers who are mandated to attend a classroom. Attention Deficit Disorder may really be attention teacher disorder in some cases.

It is the nature of any human audience, in fact. Think of any successful presenter whether in university, the church, or the world of business. Then think of the dull professors who drove you mad with their grey presentations.

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ORIGINAL: Aylee

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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ORIGINAL: Aylee

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

ETA: Let me emphasize, teaching is a Performing Art. It is Showtime seven or eight hours everyday, five days a week. Nevermind the take home work. It is insulting to measure the teachers' art by an hourly wage.

And I damn Seasame Street for this. 

Perhaps you are right. Perhaps we are competing with television, movies, video games, and online communities. But, I don't mean we are there to entertain. Even without the competition, the successful teacher learns to use drama, narrative, humor, and visual effects to keep the attention of hormonally raging teens and lead them to thinking, understanding, and knowledge. Otherwise, the teacher is no teacher, but a witless, boring, authoritarian lecturerer who is unable to explain the restless rebellion of her charges. The successful teacher is the one who breaks down the fourth wall and touches each student personally and supports their dignity. It has nothing to do with Sesame Street but everything to do with the nature of teenagers who are mandated to attend a classroom. Attention Deficit Disorder may really be attention teacher disorder in some cases.

It is the nature of any human audience, in fact. Think of any successful presenter whether in university, the church, or the world of business. Then think of the dull professors who drove you mad with their grey presentations.

Well, that is part of it.  Also the idea that learning must always be fun and never hard work.

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ORIGINAL: thishereboi

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ORIGINAL: graceadieu

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
spanxalot15, you are barking up the wrong tree with me. In the Toledo area, brand-spanking new teachers are paid around $30k, unless they have a Master's Degree, which gets them a bump of $5k/yr. more. $30k for 9 months isn't really all that bad, and it spares you the expense of summer child care, if you so choose.

So, assuming the teacher works 60 hours a week for 40 weeks, which seems pretty much in line with what I've seen, that's.... $12.50/hour, the same as what I used to make in retail as an hourly supervisor, a job which required a high school diploma and a drug test.

I suppose at least there's more room for growth?

why would you assume they work 60 hours a week? In this area they work around 40 hours a week. If I did the math right that is about 18.75 an hour for a starting teacher.