RE: Damn Those Overpaid, Unionized, Public School Teachers!!!

RE: Damn Those Overpaid, Unionized, Public School Teachers!!! (Full Version)

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Fightdirecto -> RE: Damn Those Overpaid, Unionized, Public School Teachers!!! (12/26/2012 8:30:42 AM)
I have taught as an adjunct professor at several colleges & universities over the years, mainly in Fine Arts-Theater. I also teach music & theater, now, at an inner-city school in Providence, RI, but as sort of a "visiting scholar". I have a great deal of respect and admiration for full-time teachers in public schools. I find absurd the concept that public school teachers are over-paid, lazy bums who got into the field of education because they were not good enough to go into business and we could solve the national budget deficit problem by reducing public school teachers salaries and benefits and outlawing teacher's unions. If public school teachers were paid what they were really worth, the average annual national salary would be closer to $80,000 than the present day average annual salary of $50,000.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Damn Those Overpaid, Unionized, Public School Teachers!!! (12/26/2012 8:37:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub quote: Tough. The bottom line is that we pay your salary for a service you provide to our children. So yes, we are going to have an opinion about how our money is spent and our children raised. While I understand the allure of "Why the fuck won't you all just go away and leave me alone to do my job" the real world just doesn't work that way. The thing is, success for one child is different for another. While straight A's may be the most awesome thing Sally can do, Jimmy learning that there are people who care about him at school this year may help him do better in the years following. Yes, success can be very different for each and every child. Are we offering individualized education for each and every child, though? You want to talk about gawd awful expensive! That would be a nightmare! Every child should be guaranteed a basic level of instruction. If the student participates, he/she can get more, or advanced instruction. The kids that don't give a shit about their education can deal with the basic level. Our education system is, IMO, incorrectly attempting to achieve a basic level of success, which is not up to them as much as it is the kids and the parents. Teachers have patience levels that I can't even dream of having. The dedication and drive to help is nothing short of amazing. The best teacher in the world can't transform a kid into a straight A student without the student doing the work, and, a lot of that is dependent on the home environment and positive reinforcement from the parents. Teachers are stuck in an almost no-win situation, and the educational system is continuing to attempt to do things it can not do, or that it is likely to not have the greatest impact on. quote: Helping a child who does not get regular meals and care at home, as well as helping their parents learn parenting skills, can be a success that means much more and lasts longer than straight A's. How are schools helping parents learn parenting skills? You have to have buy-in from the parents for that. If a parent isn't making sure a child is fed regularly, are you likely to have buy-in? quote: There can be no one way to judge teachers, because there is no one kind of student with only one kind of needs. You are correct in that, but only because we, as a community, are almost requiring teachers to do the impossible task of teaching each student to his/her individual need. IMO, that's where the parents need to step up. Teachers need to be able to teach to a basic level for all students and help the ones who participate go further. If a child isn't making the grade (no pun intended), the parents need to step in and take responsibility. If the parents don't care and the student doesn't care, the teacher is going to go friggin' nuts overworking to try to help. Question of teacher pay, however, is less important that the question of teacher responsibility and parental responsibility. I will not even pretend to think that pay is commensurate with the responsibility load, but I think the responsibility load is too far skewed onto teachers.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Damn Those Overpaid, Unionized, Public School Teachers!!! (12/26/2012 8:41:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto I find absurd the concept that public school teachers are over-paid, lazy bums who got into the field of education because they were not good enough to go into business and we could solve the national budget deficit problem by reducing public school teachers salaries and benefits and outlawing teacher's unions. Who pushed that crap? I've never heard anyone say anything about solving the National Debt via pay/benefit cuts on public school teachers, or by banning teachers' unions.

vincentML -> RE: Damn Those Overpaid, Unionized, Public School Teachers!!! (12/26/2012 10:59:11 AM)
~FR~ Allow me to share my experience. I retired after teaching 30 years in public schools. All manner of schools, urban and suburban, except elementary schools. I taught every kind of science class and laboratory experience. There were 250,000 students in our school district, students of all complexions, primary languages, national origins, and reading skill levels. Mostly, I met with 150 students everyday. I did not meet all the students in the District but over thirty years it was a rare student who did not respond to kindness and encouragement. There were thousands of teachers employed in our District. I didn't meet all of them. But it was a rare teacher who came to work without preparation and dedication to doing the job. They had different skill sets and different personal problems. But a teacher cannot meet with 150 students for 180 days and just coast through it lazily. That teacher will not survive. We gained tenure after 5 years of probation during which a teacher could be fired without Union participation. There was available an employee self-referral system for teachers who needed help. The purpose of the Union was to get us the best possible compensation package from our employers and to protect us against arbitrary dismissal. Since we were employed by the government we had the Constitutional rights of free speech, due process, and equal protection of the laws. The Union’s job was to see that those rights were not trampled by some administrator or irate parent. The Union did not fight dismissal. They made sure the process was constitutional. If there are problems with teacher evaluations, if it is a cumbersome process, it is because there are too few supervisors to go into the classrooms and observe what is going on. The administrators and guidance counselors are over burdened also. You get what you pay for. Our compensation package consisted of cash payments, health insurance, and retirement pay. The up front cash payments were poor compensation for people with our level of education and our responsibilities. Nobody stayed in that job because it was easy. Individually, we were able to increase our financial position by getting more education. Eventually, I was able to stop working during summer ‘vacations’ and enjoy some travel. Now, I am comfortably retired. Not lavishly. Comfortably. Without apology. I earned it. I didn’t really wish to get involved in this discussion because there is just so much exhausting hogwash about teachers being overpaid repeated by people who have a political agenda, a personal grievance, or are just plain ignorant of what being a public school teacher entails. Are there problems in America’s public educational system? Sure. There are problems in every large social services endeavor; e.g. healthcare, welfare, police, fire/rescue, military, correctional, etc. It just may be the nature of large institutions. But considering we are 50 different school systems with many districts and a variety of curricula and philosophies we have done a pretty good job providing for the public over the decades. That’s my two cents. Thanks for reading.

MrRodgers -> RE: Damn Those Overpaid, Unionized, Public School Teachers!!! (12/27/2012 4:11:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ElChupa Common union thug mentality... not very civil is it? Or maybe it is to a leftist. http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-12-11/michigan-governor-snyder-signs-ban-on-mandatory-union-dues "There will be blood." This is a political problem with political solutions. I'm not interested in "compromise" with these idiots. They must be defeated. Their organizations starved. It's all about force with the left. Except when it comes to abortion. Then it is "choice." Oh and make sure every woman has thousands of dollars in contraceptives. I forgot about that. More absolute unmitigated bullshit and un-American (as usual) for without opposition (single party rule)...you have no republic.

FatDomDaddy -> RE: Damn Those Overpaid, Unionized, Public School Teachers!!! (12/27/2012 9:27:31 PM)
FR Ya know.... The line of people who would take a job for $50k at 9 months with benefits and job security would circle the equator...

DomKen -> RE: Damn Those Overpaid, Unionized, Public School Teachers!!! (12/27/2012 10:22:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy FR Ya know.... The line of people who would take a job for $50k at 9 months with benefits and job security would circle the equator... Really? Why do most school districts struggle to find qualified teahcers then?

graceadieu -> RE: Damn Those Overpaid, Unionized, Public School Teachers!!! (12/27/2012 11:18:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri spanxalot15, you are barking up the wrong tree with me. In the Toledo area, brand-spanking new teachers are paid around $30k, unless they have a Master's Degree, which gets them a bump of $5k/yr. more. $30k for 9 months isn't really all that bad, and it spares you the expense of summer child care, if you so choose. So, assuming the teacher works 60 hours a week for 40 weeks, which seems pretty much in line with what I've seen, that's.... $12.50/hour, the same as what I used to make in retail as an hourly supervisor, a job which required a high school diploma and a drug test. I suppose at least there's more room for growth?

graceadieu -> RE: Damn Those Overpaid, Unionized, Public School Teachers!!! (12/27/2012 11:38:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri The big city schools are fucked over and over again because of the lack of parental responsibility. I have a fellow assistance baseball coach that teaches in an inner city elementary school that is one of many elementary schools in a large city school district. He teaches kids that get dropped off at 7 am, eat a school-provided breakfast, get a school-provided (or reduced cost) lunch and then don't get picked up from after care until 7 or 8 pm. Some of those kids won't eat until dropped off at school the following morning, either. You think those kids are in a home environment conducive to learning? Some of those kids have only one parent, drunk parent(s), druggee parent(s), or a combo. Or their parent(s) are just working 12 hours a day to make sure their family has a roof over their heads. Or they're immigrants and don't speak English well enough to be able to help with homework or talk to the teacher. It's not always lack of responsibility - sometimes it's just that life is hard and people are doing the best they can with limited resources. But I do agree that a lot of the educational disparity between suburban middle-class kids and urban working-class kids is due to parental involvement and the family situation. A kid who has a secure home life, with parent(s) who are literate and fluent in English and are home every night to help with homework and read a bedtime story, is just going to do better on average than someone who isn't in that situation. And I don't really know what we can do about that, how we can help those kids compensate for their home environment and level the playing field. You're right that just paying teachers more isn't going to solve that problem. It might help keep good teachers there instead of leaving for better-paying jobs in less-stressful districts, but something else needs to be done as well.

GothDaddyDom -> RE: Damn Those Overpaid, Unionized, Public School Teachers!!! (12/28/2012 12:46:43 AM)
Money never solved a social problem. And that is what schools and education are. A social problem. Plain and simple. The Unions are the instigators and the problem. I love teachers and the job they do. In an ideal world they would be paid as well as doctors and the like (not lawyers, lawers shouldn't be paid a tenth what they get. But that's another subject). It's the Unions that cause the budgetary problems. By demanding more and more money for wages the Unions are taking money directly out of the classrooms. Every doller spent on wages for teachers and staff is a dollar NOT spent on books, infastructure and materials. I don't blame the teachers. They are just toeing the party line. They have been sold on the Union propaganda. They go along to get along. It's the way. Follow or don't have a job. So, fix the social system. That's the government, for those that missed it. Change the statutes. Bust the Unions and allow teachers to negotiate their own contracts, individually and in small groups. Or hell, in large groups. WITHOUT UNIONS. It's working great in New Zealand and the world hasn't come to an end. Their country runs in the BLACK. That's surplus for those that forgot cuz it's been so long since we've seen black ink. Teachers RULE. Unions SUCK!

meatcleaver -> RE: Damn Those Overpaid, Unionized, Public School Teachers!!! (12/28/2012 1:04:49 AM)
Lowering the status and remuneration of teachers is not going to improve American education which like many other western countries is going backwards for many reasons that aren't strictly educational but cultural. 1. A teacher, no matter how good, cannot do much with a child who has had its head fucked up for four years by its parents using the TV as a baby sitter. 2. A child who can't read or count when it goes to school, will almost always be behind a child who can read when and count it starts school. Children need to be socialised into education, it can't be done on a 9-5 part time basis. 3. Macho-culture is anti-educational. 4. Superficial video games are known to damage a child's ability to concentrate on activities that require a high degree of intellectual thought. I could go on. Teachers have a thankless task in an anti-intellectual culture which the west is becoming and the idea that teachers don't deserve their renumeration is an indication of that. If teaching is seen as a parasitic job that anyone could do, it is no wonder education is going backwards in the west.

Thaz -> RE: Damn Those Overpaid, Unionized, Public School Teachers!!! (12/28/2012 1:16:30 AM)
There are Unions and then there are Unions. They have the teeth the company and legal system give them. Without ANY form of Union the employer will exploit the staff unless the state steps in to legislate far beyond a place most are comfortable with. With too much union power or corruption then the employer will go to the wall if private or cost to much if public. With colusion between employer and union the employees loose out. Its a balancing act folks, its about getting the balance right between employer, employee and the law. People forget the third.

meatcleaver -> RE: Damn Those Overpaid, Unionized, Public School Teachers!!! (12/28/2012 1:18:25 AM)
I don't know the conditions of teachers in America and what extracurricular activities they have to take part in but I suspect in the months they are in school they are working about 60 hours a week. Class contact is only part of the teacher's job. Lessons throughout the year have to be planned and work has to be marked. Teachers are often working in their holidays to make sure the school year is fully organised and planned for. Then there are the extracuricullar activities such as taking the little bastards on trips to the theatre, art galleries or supervising inter-school sports and other activities for the undeserving little brats. Then there are the parents evenings where you have to be diplomatic to parents about their obnoxious anti-social little brats because today's parents tend to think their offspring are uniquely angelic and not at all a manipulating sociapoathic little shit, just like its parents. I spent two years teaching before I thought fuck it, they can't pay me enough to do that job. The parents are as piss poor as their kids and most aren't interested in educating their own kids and just dump the responsibility on the state as if the state can magic an educational solution on a young mind already ruined.

JeffBC -> RE: Damn Those Overpaid, Unionized, Public School Teachers!!! (12/28/2012 1:54:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers More absolute unmitigated bullshit and un-American (as usual) for without opposition (single party rule)...you have no republic. Fascinating point but I agree. If any party ever actually "won" in a permanent sense that'd be kind of awful. Sure, I want those who agree with me to have a majority voice. But I want that minority voice (voices if we wised up and implemented something other than a winner take all system) to be heard also. The alternative is sort of horrific.

vincentML -> RE: Damn Those Overpaid, Unionized, Public School Teachers!!! (12/28/2012 4:12:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers More absolute unmitigated bullshit and un-American (as usual) for without opposition (single party rule)...you have no republic. Fascinating point but I agree. If any party ever actually "won" in a permanent sense that'd be kind of awful. Sure, I want those who agree with me to have a majority voice. But I want that minority voice (voices if we wised up and implemented something other than a winner take all system) to be heard also. The alternative is sort of horrific. Not sure a parlimentary system or a multi-party system is an advantage inasmuch as they must also form coalitions between parties. Whereas, we form our coalitions within the "big tents" of two major parties. It is upon the GOP to develop an agenda that serves wider interests, don't you think?

Thaz -> RE: Damn Those Overpaid, Unionized, Public School Teachers!!! (12/28/2012 4:34:28 AM)
Intresting. Its a fair point that all Major parties are but coalitions under one banner. The issues start to occur when one banner or faction gets a monopoly of the vote. The US republicans are in danger of becoming unelectable as they have not moved with changing demographics. You would assume 'market forces' will mean they either will or be replaced. As happened to the Liberal party in the UK after WW II. However it can happen. Norway have had effectively single party rule for a great many years now despite being a democracy in name....

vincentML -> RE: Damn Those Overpaid, Unionized, Public School Teachers!!! (12/28/2012 4:52:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Thaz Intresting. Its a fair point that all Major parties are but coalitions under one banner. The issues start to occur when one banner or faction gets a monopoly of the vote. The US republicans are in danger of becoming unelectable as they have not moved with changing demographics. You would assume 'market forces' will mean they either will or be replaced. As happened to the Liberal party in the UK after WW II. However it can happen. Norway have had effectively single party rule for a great many years now despite being a democracy in name.... The irony is that the GOP, the party that idolises market forces, has narrowed its brand and demonized large groups of potential "consumers." Do you think effective single party rule in Norway might be abetted by the small and rather homogenious population? I cannot imagine successful single party rule in a nation of 330 million, can you? ETA the CP in China seems to be somewhat shakey.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Damn Those Overpaid, Unionized, Public School Teachers!!! (12/28/2012 5:48:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy FR Ya know.... The line of people who would take a job for $50k at 9 months with benefits and job security would circle the equator... Really? Why do most school districts struggle to find qualified teahcers then? Got a source for that nugget? With the real reduction in the State/Local Government-Education employment, there shouldn't be any inability to find qualified teachers. There may be local pockets in some of the more difficult areas, but your use of the "most" qualifier points towards an overall situation, not localized issues.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Damn Those Overpaid, Unionized, Public School Teachers!!! (12/28/2012 6:31:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: graceadieu quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri spanxalot15, you are barking up the wrong tree with me. In the Toledo area, brand-spanking new teachers are paid around $30k, unless they have a Master's Degree, which gets them a bump of $5k/yr. more. $30k for 9 months isn't really all that bad, and it spares you the expense of summer child care, if you so choose. So, assuming the teacher works 60 hours a week for 40 weeks, which seems pretty much in line with what I've seen, that's.... $12.50/hour, the same as what I used to make in retail as an hourly supervisor, a job which required a high school diploma and a drug test. I suppose at least there's more room for growth? I have an awful lot of appreciation for the service teachers are supposed to provide. And, if we'd actually allow them to concentrate on provision of that service, I wholeheartedly believe that we would see improvements in the system, the education of the children, and our global ranking (which I think isn't as important as many seem to). And, I do think that the teaching profession does offer gain in areas that can't be financially compensated (how many teachers do not enjoy simply teaching?). Talk to a teacher about what they love about teaching and they'll tell you about the look on a child's face as a lesson sinks in and the child finally "gets it." They'll talk about touching a child's life, making some small gesture towards a student that turns a kid's life around. That shit happens, and it's all due to those who choose to teach (remember, none of them didn't get forced into a classroom, nor did they go in no knowing it wasn't going to be easy, nor did they go in without knowing the ballpark pay scale). Were your benefits similar to that of a teacher? My point, which you are failing to grasp, apparently, is that the demands and responsibilities foisted on teachers is too high. Because schools will take care of kids, some parents are shirking their own responsibilities. Toledo Public Schools decided to offer free breakfast for all students, and participation jumped from 25% to 75%. In May of 2012, the board decided to put a levy on the ballot to prevent $40M annual deficits by 2016. That was before the "free for all" breakfast was offered. The levy didn't pass. Now, you have a program that is feeding breakfast to 75% of the student population for free. I guaran-damn-tee not all those students live in homes where the parents can't provide breakfast. But, if the schools are going to do it without increasing my costs, why wouldn't you let them? But, this is just another example of how the schools are doing a great thing, but that thing isn't something they should bear the responsibility to provide. Teachers should be teachers and instructors to the kids. Teachers should not also be required to be the kids' parents. I would support some sort of "punishment" be required to be "paid" (don't like that word since I'm thinking of non-financial consequences) by the parent(s) of children who misbehave, underperform, etc. The first couple times the parent(s) go through the consequences, there may be more of an incentive to be a responsible parent. For those of you that wish to bring up the increase in child abuse, it's a sad reality, but the parent(s) will face far more consequences from those actions, including removal of the child from the home. If a parent is so base that they would stoop to abuse rather than stepping up to the responsibility to actually be the parent, well, the child is going to be in a much better environment for learning after being removed.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Damn Those Overpaid, Unionized, Public School Teachers!!! (12/28/2012 6:42:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: graceadieu quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri The big city schools are fucked over and over again because of the lack of parental responsibility. I have a fellow assistance baseball coach that teaches in an inner city elementary school that is one of many elementary schools in a large city school district. He teaches kids that get dropped off at 7 am, eat a school-provided breakfast, get a school-provided (or reduced cost) lunch and then don't get picked up from after care until 7 or 8 pm. Some of those kids won't eat until dropped off at school the following morning, either. You think those kids are in a home environment conducive to learning? Some of those kids have only one parent, drunk parent(s), druggee parent(s), or a combo. Or their parent(s) are just working 12 hours a day to make sure their family has a roof over their heads. Or they're immigrants and don't speak English well enough to be able to help with homework or talk to the teacher. It's not always lack of responsibility - sometimes it's just that life is hard and people are doing the best they can with limited resources. I fully agree that it's not always a lack of responsibility. I wouldn't agree that in most cases it isn't, though. I am not naive in thinking that there are no difficulties in life. Because I do know that, I am glad that there are options available for help. I take issue with the hardship assistances becoming the way of life. quote: But I do agree that a lot of the educational disparity between suburban middle-class kids and urban working-class kids is due to parental involvement and the family situation. A kid who has a secure home life, with parent(s) who are literate and fluent in English and are home every night to help with homework and read a bedtime story, is just going to do better on average than someone who isn't in that situation. And I don't really know what we can do about that, how we can help those kids compensate for their home environment and level the playing field. You're right that just paying teachers more isn't going to solve that problem. It might help keep good teachers there instead of leaving for better-paying jobs in less-stressful districts, but something else needs to be done as well. You can't force a school district and/or the individual teachers to compensate for the students' home environment woes. There is only one way to make sure each and every child has a stable home environment that fosters academic success, but taking kids away from their homes to a State-run home isn't an acceptable answer, especially since you'd have to mandate it. Perhaps there should be more "military" schools where the worst offenders are forced by the State to attend. Each community would have one and students would be isolated from their lacking home environments.

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