RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues

RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues (Full Version)

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Hillwilliam -> RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues (12/27/2012 1:05:53 PM)
tj, they're already doing it. http://www.livescience.com/13083-criminals-brain-neuroscience-ethics.html Do you think the criminals in this study gave informed consent?

tj444 -> RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues (12/27/2012 2:00:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam tj, they're already doing it. http://www.livescience.com/13083-criminals-brain-neuroscience-ethics.html Do you think the criminals in this study gave informed consent? Yes, I would think they would have had to have consented.. just as any person can donate their body to a University for study.. The psycopaths would have had to voluntarily consented to being questioned to even determine if they were indeed psycopaths.. and yes, some might have decided to volunteer that their brains be studied after death.. not to mention I expected the parents consented to the 1,795 kids that were studied.. The number of psycopaths studied is only 32.. if consent was not needed, then the number would be much higher, i would think.. considering the number of killers in US jails.. "The scans were used to strike a plea bargain in which Weinstein's sentence was reduced to only 11 years in prison."

vincentML -> RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues (12/27/2012 2:31:58 PM)
quote: I understand what you are saying, I just dont agree with the decision.. Lanza's death was the result of being shot (at his own hand), that is quite evident and imo the end of the ME's job description (to determine the cause of death).. not to go any further unless he did get the family's permission to study his genes or brain, etc.. if the ME's rights extend that far, to send genes or the brains of any deceased, then any serial killers genes and brains (that are executed or die in prison), etc are subject to seizure for study.. and then anyone that dies of whatever diseases cant be treated in the same way after death.. I feel that is wrong and immoral.. and the start of a slippery slope.. tj, I found this in answer to your concern about the family's permission. The 1954 Model Post-Mortem Examination Act, which has been adopted by most U.S. jurisdictions, recommends that autopsies be conducted in all cases of deaths that (1) are violent, (2) are sudden and unexpected, (3) occur under suspicious circumstances, (4) are employment related, (5) occur in prison or to psychiatric inmates, (6) constitute a threat to public health, or (7) are persons who bodies will be cremated, dissected, buried at sea, or otherwise unavailable for later examination. In some cases, patients who die within twenty-four hours of anesthesia being administered are also autopsied. In cases where doctors want to perform autopsies not involving the aforementioned situations, survivors or next of kin must usually give consent. [SNIP] Some states honor religious objections to autopsies, but officials retain the right to do so over such objections if it is determined that it is in the public interest to do so. Consent of next of kin appears to be required only in cases other than violent crime. Even religious objections can be over ridden. And public interest is an issue as well. Perhaps others here have better knowledge of the consent issue. Source

Rule -> RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues (12/27/2012 2:42:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML University of Connecticut Genetics Department has been asked to study Lanza's genes for markers of mental disease or violent behavior. Some geneticists have ethical objections. Some wonder at the efficacy of such a study. Is this a proper scientific and medical function? Or is it a toe into the doorway of some Orwellian future that will pose a challenge to individual liberty? Opinions? I favor this research.

meatcleaver -> RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues (12/27/2012 2:43:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML University of Connecticut Genetics Department has been asked to study Lanza's genes for markers of mental disease or violent behavior. Some geneticists have ethical objections. Some wonder at the efficacy of such a study. Is this a proper scientific and medical function? Or is it a toe into the doorway of some Orwellian future that will pose a challenge to individual liberty? Opinions? Source I'm glad I'm not going to Connecticut University if they see genetics in this simplistic way. There are too many variables to apply any behaviour directly to genetics.

Moonhead -> RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues (12/27/2012 2:51:43 PM)
To be fair, they have to come out with all sorts of bullshit and promise the moon on a stick to get their research funding, don't they?

meatcleaver -> RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues (12/27/2012 3:26:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead To be fair, they have to come out with all sorts of bullshit and promise the moon on a stick to get their research funding, don't they? Yep. You have to bullshit the bullshitters to get funding for anything decent.

tj444 -> RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues (12/27/2012 3:43:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML tj, I found this in answer to your concern about the family's permission. The 1954 Model Post-Mortem Examination Act, which has been adopted by most U.S. jurisdictions, recommends that autopsies be conducted in all cases of deaths that (1) are violent, (2) are sudden and unexpected, (3) occur under suspicious circumstances, (4) are employment related, (5) occur in prison or to psychiatric inmates, (6) constitute a threat to public health, or (7) are persons who bodies will be cremated, dissected, buried at sea, or otherwise unavailable for later examination. In some cases, patients who die within twenty-four hours of anesthesia being administered are also autopsied. In cases where doctors want to perform autopsies not involving the aforementioned situations, survivors or next of kin must usually give consent. [SNIP] Some states honor religious objections to autopsies, but officials retain the right to do so over such objections if it is determined that it is in the public interest to do so. Consent of next of kin appears to be required only in cases other than violent crime. Even religious objections can be over ridden. And public interest is an issue as well. Perhaps others here have better knowledge of the consent issue. Source hmmm... ok, that gives the ME the right to perform an autopsy in those cases, but does it say the persons genetic material, brain or other body parts can be taken/seized and used by Universities for study? An autopsy to determine the exact cause of death (for the death certificate) is different than using bits of the person to study, imo.. there just seems to me to be a world of difference.. not trying to be picky or anything but I would not want my body used in ways (regular autopsy aside if necessary) that i had not agreed to...

cordeliasub -> RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues (12/27/2012 4:02:42 PM)
Not sure how I feel about this. It reminds me a bit of the genetic predisposition to addiction. According to my biological family history, I ought to be a raging alcoholic. I'm not. I think that it is rather simplistic to say "Oh! There it is! THAT little thingy there guarantees he/she will be whacko and dangerous.

vincentML -> RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues (12/27/2012 5:23:31 PM)
quote: hmmm... ok, that gives the ME the right to perform an autopsy in those cases, but does it say the persons genetic material, brain or other body parts can be taken/seized and used by Universities for study? An autopsy to determine the exact cause of death (for the death certificate) is different than using bits of the person to study, imo.. there just seems to me to be a world of difference.. not trying to be picky or anything but I would not want my body used in ways (regular autopsy aside if necessary) that i had not agreed to... You raise some interesting issues, tj, that have probably been addressed by others more knowledgeable than me. An autopsy is not soley for determining the exact cause of death. In addition to that primary purpose, which should be self-evident in the event of suicide by gunshot as in this case, there is also the issue of the "public interest." I would suggest that in Adam Lanza's actions the public interest is quite high and trumps all else. Then you wrote: "I would not want my body used in ways (regular autopsy aside if necessary) that i had not agreed to..." And to my mind that raises the issue of ownership of the body. If you are dead you do not have ownership rights, I think. I am not sure if even the family has "ownership" of a carcass. There may only be a right of "possession" for the duty of disposal.

vincentML -> RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues (12/27/2012 5:39:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cordeliasub Not sure how I feel about this. It reminds me a bit of the genetic predisposition to addiction. According to my biological family history, I ought to be a raging alcoholic. I'm not. I think that it is rather simplistic to say "Oh! There it is! THAT little thingy there guarantees he/she will be whacko and dangerous. Your concern is a valid one, Cordelia, and it is addressed in the article I sourced. The issue of stigma is raised. It is simplistic to point to that "little thingy." You are right. But genes act in clusters with activators (on/off switches) and are subject to environmental impact as well (epigenesis) At this point there is a great deal of unknowledge in the field. The best that can be hoped for are marker segments of DNA that may be indicators of possibilities. No one is claiming straight line determinants to the best of my knowledge. But we are at a frontier just as Pasteur was when he came up with the germ theory of disease. Looking for genes instead of germs. Everyone who has the germ does not get the disease. We most probably all carry the pneumococcus bacteria in our lungs, but some get pneumonia only when their defenses are impeded, and some maybe not even then. In the same fashion many may carry the gene but not suffer the illness. Other determiners may change the course of biological events.

tj444 -> RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues (12/27/2012 7:14:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Then you wrote: "I would not want my body used in ways (regular autopsy aside if necessary) that i had not agreed to..." And to my mind that raises the issue of ownership of the body. If you are dead you do not have ownership rights, I think. I am not sure if even the family has "ownership" of a carcass. There may only be a right of "possession" for the duty of disposal. Don't people say (in their wills, etc) how they want their dead body to be treated? while some dont care, me I would want mine cremated (can't stand the thought of worms eating me!) .. others might want to be planted in the ground next to a spouse or family members.. and others might want to donate their bodies to science.. and some are donors for body parts also, if they die with that being possible.. I guess if the executor or family members decide to do something else there is not much a dead person can do about that tho.. well,.. maybe haunt them..

Powergamz1 -> RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues (12/27/2012 8:40:56 PM)
Yes. quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam tj, they're already doing it. http://www.livescience.com/13083-criminals-brain-neuroscience-ethics.html Do you think the criminals in this study gave informed consent?

Aswad -> RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues (12/27/2012 9:45:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam A tool isn't evil in and of itself. It's the user of the tool that is good, evil or neutral. Kind of like a gun, except with the caliber and range to slam all of humanity. Well, that, and no requirements, accountability, legislation or regulation. At least we don't allow elective abortions based on gene testing. IWYW, — Aswad.

Aswad -> RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues (12/27/2012 9:49:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 I personally feel the medical examiner has overstepped his bounds. Personally, I feel he's overstepped on par with humping Lanza's corpse. Such a lack of respect for his profession is quite unbecoming, to put it mildly. IWYW, — Aswad.

TizzyTara -> RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues (12/27/2012 11:38:34 PM)
I'm sceptical about this effort. Eugenics and all that.

meatcleaver -> RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues (12/28/2012 12:45:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TizzyTara I'm sceptical about this effort. Eugenics and all that. It is a meaningless effort and no chance of success because there is no indication that any one gene or any group of genes controls behaviour. Genes have chemical switches which mean they can be turned on and off or made to function differently through diet and/or environment, then on top of that we have to consider upbringing. The cherry on that particular cake is that we are still know very little about genetics and are largely ignorant and still floundering round in the dark.

vincentML -> RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues (12/28/2012 4:14:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Then you wrote: "I would not want my body used in ways (regular autopsy aside if necessary) that i had not agreed to..." And to my mind that raises the issue of ownership of the body. If you are dead you do not have ownership rights, I think. I am not sure if even the family has "ownership" of a carcass. There may only be a right of "possession" for the duty of disposal. Don't people say (in their wills, etc) how they want their dead body to be treated? while some dont care, me I would want mine cremated (can't stand the thought of worms eating me!) .. others might want to be planted in the ground next to a spouse or family members.. and others might want to donate their bodies to science.. and some are donors for body parts also, if they die with that being possible.. I guess if the executor or family members decide to do something else there is not much a dead person can do about that tho.. well,.. maybe haunt them.. [:D][:D]

vincentML -> RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues (12/28/2012 4:36:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam A tool isn't evil in and of itself. It's the user of the tool that is good, evil or neutral. Kind of like a gun, except with the caliber and range to slam all of humanity. Well, that, and no requirements, accountability, legislation or regulation. At least we don't allow elective abortions based on gene testing. IWYW, — Aswad. Not yet. But some are allowed based on fluid tests for trisomy and ultra sound for Down's Syndrome, bifurcated neural tubes, and other fetal pathologies, aren't they? Perhaps, elective abortions based on gene testing is a step too far. However, nowhere is that suggested. The mutations at best would be recognised as markers for potential personality disorders that might "slam" all unfortunately nearby humanity. There may then be the potential to develop effective prophylactic interventions. Wouldn't that be a benefit to the individual and to society?

vincentML -> RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues (12/28/2012 4:46:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: TizzyTara I'm sceptical about this effort. Eugenics and all that. It is a meaningless effort and no chance of success because there is no indication that any one gene or any group of genes controls behaviour. Genes have chemical switches which mean they can be turned on and off or made to function differently through diet and/or environment, then on top of that we have to consider upbringing. The cherry on that particular cake is that we are still know very little about genetics and are largely ignorant and still floundering round in the dark. You are quite correct. But "no chance of success?" There are always limits on current knowledge. We know what we don't know, and we don't know yet some of what we don't know. But, are you so confident to forcast that we will never know? It has been only sixty years since Watson and Crick described the function of DNA, after all. It is unlikely that geneticists will stop probing, tinkering, and making new findings. Humans have a pretty good record of tinkering, wouldn't you say?

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