RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues

RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues (Full Version)

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Aswad -> RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues (12/29/2012 6:47:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver It is a meaningless effort and no chance of success because there is no indication that any one gene or any group of genes controls behaviour. Certain genes are known from statistics to be strongly correlated with certain behaviors, which is why a prominent ethicist has already said it would be immoral not to use genetic engineering to cull violence as a trait from humanity altogether. If you accept his premise, which you've done in other threads, he makes a strong case for it. Me, I don't accept the premise, so his case just looks like calling for true crimes against humanity to me. For instance, the genes for monoamine oxidase enzyme type A are known to differentiate outcomes in children subject to neglect or abuse or somesuch (I can't recall, but if you're curious, search for posts by me with the word Maori in them, and it'll be the most recent one). Artificially selecting for the "right" subtype to cull the "wrong" one from the population makes every kind of sense if you're the sort to favor safety over liberty (or life over freedom). I agree we know next to nothing, and don't think we should start contemplating eugenics. IWYW, — Aswad.

Aswad -> RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues (12/29/2012 6:59:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Not yet. But some are allowed based on fluid tests for trisomy and ultra sound for Down's Syndrome, bifurcated neural tubes, and other fetal pathologies, aren't they? Yeah, it was a rhetorical question... quote: Perhaps, elective abortions based on gene testing is a step too far. Maybe. Giving others than the parents the right to decide this, though, certainly is. quote: However, nowhere is that suggested. Oxford's Julian Savulescu has suggested it. "Responsible parenting", he calls it, along with "a moral obligation"; he's not the only one. quote: The mutations at best would be recognised as markers for potential personality disorders that might "slam" all unfortunately nearby humanity. You could be guilty, so let's convict you? Doesn't strike me as the way to go. quote: There may then be the potential to develop effective prophylactic interventions. Wouldn't that be a benefit to the individual and to society? In my view, no, emphatically no. IWYW, — Aswad.

vincentML -> RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues (12/29/2012 10:03:31 AM)
quote: Perhaps, elective abortions based on gene testing is a step too far. Maybe. Giving others than the parents the right to decide this, though, certainly is. Then, they would not be elective, would they? quote: Oxford's Julian Savulescu has suggested it. "Responsible parenting", he calls it, along with "a moral obligation"; he's not the only one. Sorry. More specifically, it was not suggested anywhere in the article cited in the OP. quote: You could be guilty, so let's convict you? Doesn't strike me as the way to go. Guilty? Conviction? That is your inferrence and projection, perhaps. Again, not from the OP article. You are emphatically opposed to developing prophylactic interventions? I did not mean in utero or by gene manipulation. My error if that is what came across. No, I meant in the individual having such markers and exhibiting behaviours. In the same manner doctors take a family history for potential cancer or cardiac failure, or screen for sickle cell anemia. Be well.

LafayetteLady -> RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues (12/29/2012 10:14:47 AM)
~Fast Reply~ Years ago (I believe it was in the 50s, not entirely sure), "studies" were done showing that the brains of blacks made them more predispositioned to crime (later proven as bullshit of course). The study of criminal's brain scans has been going on probably as long as those scans have been possible. Every few years, reports come out saying scientists have found differences in the brains of criminals as opposed to law abiding citizens. Addiction has two components: genetics and pyschological. Addiction will only occur when both are present (regardless of whether people admit to the pyschological aspect, it exists). As for the ME overstepping his role, that is simply not the case. An ME, in determining the cause of death must look at ALL the factors involved. Yes, Lanza died of a gunshot wound, but looking for what caused him to shoot himself and all those children is not beyond the scope of the ME's position. Tox screens would have naturally been done to find out if this tragedy was due to some type of ingested chemical, just like his brain was analyzed to see if there was something like a tumor which caused his behavior. Since none of these tests resulted in being able to determine what caused the behavior, the ME is fully within his rights to send his DNA for analysis to see if that somehow gives them a clue to Lanza's behavior. Given the outcry for a reason, it is fully understandable why the ME is going to such an extreme.

meatcleaver -> RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues (12/29/2012 2:53:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver It is a meaningless effort and no chance of success because there is no indication that any one gene or any group of genes controls behaviour. Certain genes are known from statistics to be strongly correlated with certain behaviors, which is why a prominent ethicist has already said it would be immoral not to use genetic engineering to cull violence as a trait from humanity altogether. If you accept his premise, which you've done in other threads, he makes a strong case for it. Me, I don't accept the premise, so his case just looks like calling for true crimes against humanity to me. For instance, the genes for monoamine oxidase enzyme type A are known to differentiate outcomes in children subject to neglect or abuse or somesuch (I can't recall, but if you're curious, search for posts by me with the word Maori in them, and it'll be the most recent one). Artificially selecting for the "right" subtype to cull the "wrong" one from the population makes every kind of sense if you're the sort to favor safety over liberty (or life over freedom). I agree we know next to nothing, and don't think we should start contemplating eugenics. IWYW, — Aswad. Actually no one knows certain behaviours are attributable to genes, that is an assumption based on lack of knowledge. I doubt you could find a creditable geneticist who would stake their career on saying behaviour is genetic based. Your second paragraph finds you contradicting yourself. You seem to say behaviour is hard wiired then you seem to say it isn't. If it isn't hard wired, it means genetics isn't a hard wiring, which is the one thing we do know about genetics, it isn't about hard wiring because environment and experience can not only change behaviour but flick chemical switches which can turn genes on or off. Turning a gene off can create substantial change simply because it isn't active. If a gene isn't active, a physical trait or behaviour cannot be hard wired, which is what your post is dependent on. The fact is, when it comes to genetics, we are still in the stone age and are cleless as to what over 95% of genes are for.

PeonForHer -> RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues (12/29/2012 3:40:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead To be fair, they have to come out with all sorts of bullshit and promise the moon on a stick to get their research funding, don't they? No, all they have to do is promise to find a genetic characteristic that looks plausible enough to move the debate about violence away from the political arena, where everyone has an opinion and is baying for action, and into an area - genetics - that only a few tame cheeseheads in white coats know anything about.

vincentML -> RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues (12/29/2012 4:41:03 PM)
quote: The fact is, when it comes to genetics, we are still in the stone age and are cleless as to what over 95% of genes are for. That's true. And come to find out some of the "junk" genes may actually play a role. We'll just keep on tinkering, Orville. Until we get the dang thing to fly, Wilbur.

Aswad -> RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues (12/30/2012 5:35:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Actually no one knows certain behaviours are attributable to genes, that is an assumption based on lack of knowledge. I never said we know certain behaviors to be causally attributable to specific genes. What I said was, we know something about a few correlations. Nice strawman, though. IWYW, — Aswad.

meatcleaver -> RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues (12/30/2012 7:10:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Actually no one knows certain behaviours are attributable to genes, that is an assumption based on lack of knowledge. I never said we know certain behaviors to be causally attributable to specific genes. What I said was, we know something about a few correlations. Nice strawman, though. IWYW, — Aswad. We know next to nothing, we have deduced which is a lot different than being able to predict, which is a lot short of know. I still stand by my original post that there is no chance about finding out anything from Lanza's behaviour from his DNA.

vincentML -> RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues (12/30/2012 8:33:58 AM)
quote: We know next to nothing, we have deduced which is a lot different than being able to predict, which is a lot short of know. I still stand by my original post that there is no chance about finding out anything from Lanza's behaviour from his DNA. Finding out anything from Lanza's behaviour is not quite the point in my estimation. The larger goal is to search for mutations that can be matched with other individuals that exhibit similar behaviour. We know that a Down's Syndrome child has trisomy of chromosome 21. A link between chromosome abnormality and mental characteristics is established. However the chromosome is a collection of genes and so a macro marker. What objection is there to serching the next layer down? There were Down's Syndrome children before the microscope was invented. There have been injurious behaviour syndromes before the human genome was mapped. What is the objection to pursuing genetic research in connection with mental syndrome? Genetics likely plays a role in the development of paranoid schizophrenia. Why not examine a possible contributing factor?I do not understand your objection to research.

meatcleaver -> RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues (12/30/2012 8:51:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Finding out anything from Lanza's behaviour is not quite the point in my estimation. The larger goal is to search for mutations that can be matched with other individuals that exhibit similar behaviour. We know that a Down's Syndrome child has trisomy of chromosome 21. A link between chromosome abnormality and mental characteristics is established. However the chromosome is a collection of genes and so a macro marker. What objection is there to serching the next layer down? There were Down's Syndrome children before the microscope was invented. There have been injurious behaviour syndromes before the human genome was mapped. What is the objection to pursuing genetic research in connection with mental syndrome? Genetics likely plays a role in the development of paranoid schizophrenia. Why not examine a possible contributing factor?I do not understand your objection to research. Sorry Vincent but the whole idea of searching for mutant genes that control behaviour appears to be nonesene. Biologists are beginning to realise the idea of finding mutant genes to cure illnesses is no going to be that simple because genes appear to work in concert, not as individual triggers. There just doesn't seem to be an individual gene or group of genes which control behaviour and experience and environment can act as switches without leaving any marker.

PeonForHer -> RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues (12/30/2012 9:54:28 AM)
Yes, but, whew. It's about genetics - it's not about guns. That's the main thing, eh? [:)]

tj444 -> RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues (12/30/2012 10:26:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer Yes, but, whew. It's about genetics - it's not about guns. That's the main thing, eh? [:)] yes, exactly.. it was his genes.. not that his mother was trying to put him in an institution that made him very angry and he went over the edge.. guess all those (frequently men) that murder their spouse for wanting a divorce have bad genes too... [8\|] but no,.. its definately not about guns..

PeonForHer -> RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues (12/30/2012 10:44:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer Yes, but, whew. It's about genetics - it's not about guns. That's the main thing, eh? [:)] yes, exactly.. it was his genes.. not that his mother was trying to put him in an institution that made him very angry and he went over the edge.. guess all those (frequently men) that murder their spouse for wanting a divorce have bad genes too... [8\|] but no,.. its definately not about guns.. TBH, I find this latest "genetic study" almost laughable. Here they are, trying to find some shocking aberration deep inside the biological make-up of a particular human. Yet, this happens in a society that's ram-packed full of guns, built on a gun-culture that stretches way back into its history and that, month by month, produces its mythical gun-toting "heroes" in Hollywood. Really, the most fascinating psychological/biological/name-your-science question here is not why such killings occur occasionally, it's why more screwed-up. testosterone- and fantasy- fuelled young men do not more regularly go around blasting the shit out of people around them.

meatcleaver -> RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues (12/30/2012 11:27:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 yes, exactly.. it was his genes.. not that his mother was trying to put him in an institution that made him very angry and he went over the edge.. guess all those (frequently men) that murder their spouse for wanting a divorce have bad genes too... [8\|] but no,.. its definately not about guns.. No it wasn't his genes or it is very doubtful it was. Blaming genes for behaviour is the modern version of saying someone is inherently evil. The fact is there are too many variables in a person's life, whether biological, experiential or environmental, to say it is one thing or the other that made, prompted or caused Lanza to do what he did and no one has a chance of finding anything now he is dead. The one thing for sure is, he was brought up in a macho gun totting culture which glorifies violence and apparently sees violence as the best way of solving problems.

vincentML -> RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues (12/30/2012 12:14:49 PM)
quote: Sorry Vincent but the whole idea of searching for mutant genes that control behaviour appears to be nonesene. Biologists are beginning to realise the idea of finding mutant genes to cure illnesses is no going to be that simple because genes appear to work in concert, not as individual triggers. There just doesn't seem to be an individual gene or group of genes which control behaviour and experience and environment can act as switches without leaving any marker. I never suggested looking for genes to cure illnesses. I suggested looking for genes as markers for behaviours. BIG freakin difference. Nor did I ever say it was going to be simple. I understand a wee bit about polygenes and epigenisus. But to imply that geneticists are giving up on this train of research is wrong. They have only just begun. The study of the nervous system can be done at multiple levels, ranging from the molecular and cellular levels to the systems and cognitive levels. At the molecular level, the basic questions addressed in molecular neuroscience include the mechanisms by which neurons express and respond to molecular signals and how axons form complex connectivity patterns. At this level, tools from molecular biology and genetics are used to understand how neurons develop and how genetic changes affect biological functions. The morphology, molecular identity, and physiological characteristics of neurons and how they relate to different types of behavior are also of considerable interest.

dcnovice -> RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues (12/30/2012 12:25:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead It was so bad I've blotted out most of my memory of it, to be honest. It was a time probe macguffin rather than DNA, then? I cant remember either, but I know it was not DNA. If memory serves (and it's been a while), the authorities had essentially imprisoned a group of psychics who could foretell crimes. The cops would then grab the perps before they had a chance to act. My main reaction to this grim flick was dismay at its portrayal of DC's future. Hideous skyscrapers loomed, casting whole streets into shadow and nearly spurring me to yell, "The height restriction! What the fuck happened to the height restriction?!"

meatcleaver -> RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues (12/30/2012 1:27:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: Sorry Vincent but the whole idea of searching for mutant genes that control behaviour appears to be nonesene. Biologists are beginning to realise the idea of finding mutant genes to cure illnesses is no going to be that simple because genes appear to work in concert, not as individual triggers. There just doesn't seem to be an individual gene or group of genes which control behaviour and experience and environment can act as switches without leaving any marker. I never suggested looking for genes to cure illnesses. I suggested looking for genes as markers for behaviours. BIG freakin difference. Nor did I ever say it was going to be simple. I understand a wee bit about polygenes and epigenisus. But to imply that geneticists are giving up on this train of research is wrong. They have only just begun. The study of the nervous system can be done at multiple levels, ranging from the molecular and cellular levels to the systems and cognitive levels. At the molecular level, the basic questions addressed in molecular neuroscience include the mechanisms by which neurons express and respond to molecular signals and how axons form complex connectivity patterns. At this level, tools from molecular biology and genetics are used to understand how neurons develop and how genetic changes affect biological functions. The morphology, molecular identity, and physiological characteristics of neurons and how they relate to different types of behavior are also of considerable interest. Translate all that into plain English and it really says, we know nothing but are fumbling around in the dark at the moment and sort of makes looking at Lanza's genes pretty pointless considering. Until there is an understanding of how genetics governs or influences or prompts behaviour and without a series of controls for comparison, studying Lanza's genes is pretty pointless Human Genome Project Information No single gene determines a particular behavior. Behaviors are complex traits involving multiple genes that are affected by a variety of other factors. This fact often gets overlooked in media reports hyping scientific breakthroughs on gene function, and, unfortunately, this can be very misleading to the public.

vincentML -> RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues (12/30/2012 2:47:18 PM)
quote: Translate all that into plain English and it really says, we know nothing but are fumbling around in the dark at the moment and sort of makes looking at Lanza's genes pretty pointless considering. Until there is an understanding of how genetics governs or influences or prompts behaviour and without a series of controls for comparison, studying Lanza's genes is pretty pointless Well, how can there be an understanding without research? Control groups and double blinds will follow in time . . when enough data is gathered to formulate questions and hypothoses. quote: No single gene determines a particular behavior. Behaviors are complex traits involving multiple genes that are affected by a variety of other factors. This fact often gets overlooked in media reports hyping scientific breakthroughs on gene function, and, unfortunately, this can be very misleading to the public. How many times are you going to tell me something I have already acknowledged? We are going around in circles here. Calling it a waste of time. ciao

meatcleaver -> RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues (12/30/2012 3:56:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Well, how can there be an understanding without research? Control groups and double blinds will follow in time . . when enough data is gathered to formulate questions and hypothoses. The discussion in this thread is about finding a genetic cause for Lanza's behaviour, which is the reason Connecticut University want to study Lanza's genes for mental illness, which is as good as impossible. If they think they are going to find genetic markers for mental illnesses, they don't need Lanza's genetic tissue because it will tell them nothing they can't find out from other sources and one subject will tell them absolutely nothing. All I can think of is that Connecticut University are involved in a publicity stunt which does their institution no favours when it comes to their peers.

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