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RE: What constitutes racial discrimination? - 12/28/2012 10:23:16 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
The problem here is blaming teachers for school performance when the real factor is poverty.


It's not poverty. I do think poverty may be correlated, but not as a cause. Stable and education-friendly home environments would reverse any decline we have been seeing.

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RE: What constitutes racial discrimination? - 12/29/2012 7:17:59 AM   
mnottertail


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RE: What constitutes racial discrimination? - 12/29/2012 10:27:58 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
waffleiron is to gridiron?


yes, but not belgian waffle iron, and only the square ones.

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RE: What constitutes racial discrimination? - 12/29/2012 11:48:48 AM   
dcnovice


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quote:

My mother brought me to the library frequently (at least weekly). I was reading classics like Dante's Inferno in the 6th grade. Not because I was a wealthy white child but because I had a parent who showed me at a young age that a book could take me anywhere I wanted to go.


That's great! Blessings on your mom.

And on mine, too, for I was also brought up among books and encouraged to read (even if I took a bit longer to get to Dante). I have no doubt that that early and important encouragement played a key role in my academic and professional success.

Knowing all that makes me skeptical of the idea that there's some sort of "level playing field" that kids encounter when they hit first grade.

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RE: What constitutes racial discrimination? - 12/29/2012 12:14:13 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

My wider point, though, is: So what? Is there a problem with being different? Why is any test area where we score differently declared to be "biassed"? I mean, it just really seems all very peculiar.


You're forgetting a key, poisonous strand of U.S. history: the use of "difference" to undergird oppression. The claim that blacks were inferior--mentally, morally, physically, socially--was a crucial justification for first slavery and then segregation. We like to think this all happened in some dark and distant past from which we've gloriously emerged, but there are still folks alive today who can remember sitting on the back of the bus or watching their parents being denied the right to vote.

Against that backdrop, it think it's far from peculiar to question an "aptitude" test--particularly one that plays a key role in determining what educational opportunities are open to whom--that seems to say that some demographic groups have less ability than others.

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RE: What constitutes racial discrimination? - 12/29/2012 12:17:26 PM   
Powergamz1


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Status: offline 		You're forgetting a key, poisonous strand of U.S. history: the use of "difference" to undergird oppression

Sadly, that's a poisonous *mainstay* of human history.




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RE: What constitutes racial discrimination? - 12/29/2012 12:52:41 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

It was tongue-in-cheek.  Since that group keeps out-performing the white group they pretty much kill the argument that the SAT favors the white group.  I should have used some sort of smiley, I suppose. 


lol.. true.. especially in math and sciences.

quote:

I have read up on a few theories and it may not be natural. It may be cultural or for a language reason.


I tend to agree. Its more a cultural thing. Disappointment in the Asian culture, as a norm, is felt more acutely than in US cultures.


I will try to find a cite for you.  May take me a few days and you may have to remind me (I think that it is Malcolm Gladwell, though) but he talked about rice paddies.  Also the screwed up English numbering system. 

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RE: What constitutes racial discrimination? - 12/29/2012 12:58:07 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

You're forgetting a key, poisonous strand of U.S. history: the use of "difference" to undergird oppression

Sadly, that's a poisonous *mainstay* of human history.


Very true, alas.

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RE: What constitutes racial discrimination? - 12/29/2012 1:05:58 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Knowing all that makes me skeptical of the idea that there's some sort of "level playing field" that kids encounter when they hit first grade.


Oh, there is not. 

Play make believe with me for a moment.  Pretend that all kids progressed at the exact same rate.  Now, let's look at school ages.  Enrollment cut off for first grade is to be 6 years old by September 1st.  Little Bobby's birthday is August 31st.  Little Billy's birthday is September 2nd. 

You have two children a year apart in skills and experience. 

Is this a level playing field for first grade?

(Check out the birthdates of your HS varsity sports teams.  They cluster.)

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RE: What constitutes racial discrimination? - 12/29/2012 1:15:55 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		The very basis of affirmative action was to allow minorities that had been discriminated against in the past to fast track to positions they may not qualify for...at least at first until they get more training... At least that is the way I look at it. Because of said discrimination they did not receive the same education and were denied jobs and housing because of their race.

So even today those that their families were discriminated years ago will have a hard time achieving equality in scholastic achievement and will still fair lower on standard testing. Simply because as we know it takes a family to educate and if the parents could not provide the same support as a non discriminated family they are still at a disadvantage.

I believe this will reflect in the competence of teachers. It is the school boards fault that they did not provide continuing education so these black teachers could catch up to their peers…Or at least this is a possibility for the claim of racial discrimination. Not knowing the facts it is just a guess.

Butch

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RE: What constitutes racial discrimination? - 12/29/2012 3:07:27 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

The very basis of affirmative action was to allow minorities that had been discriminated against in the past to fast track to positions they may not qualify for...at least at first until they get more training... At least that is the way I look at it. Because of said discrimination they did not receive the same education and were denied jobs and housing because of their race.

So even today those that their families were discriminated years ago will have a hard time achieving equality in scholastic achievement and will still fair lower on standard testing. Simply because as we know it takes a family to educate and if the parents could not provide the same support as a non discriminated family they are still at a disadvantage.

I believe this will reflect in the competence of teachers. It is the school boards fault that they did not provide continuing education so these black teachers could catch up to their peers…Or at least this is a possibility for the claim of racial discrimination. Not knowing the facts it is just a guess.

Butch


I am getting tired of asking this, but what about the Asians? 

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RE: What constitutes racial discrimination? - 12/29/2012 3:21:03 PM   
ChatteParfaitt


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Status: offline 		Yeah, what about the Asians.

Here's some anecdotal experience:

At the university I worked at, all faculty and high level admins (including myself) HAD to attend a 3 day diversity seminar. There were two of them, one for sexual discrimination, one for racial discrimination.

The one for racial discrimination came first in my schedule. In my mind it was almost worthless, since most of the issues involved African Americans, and my grad school held the record for African American admissions (my school really worked at that). However, in talking with FACULTY, many Asian faculty were very disturbed that there was NO INTEREST in how Asian faculty were discriminated against.

It was life, prejudice against African Americans is a current buzzword, against Asians, not so much. It concerned me.

I find a great deal of discrimination in this lovely US of ours, and try to mitigate it as I can. It was an eye opener to see it and discuss it at a university faculty level.

There is much discrimination out there, but it is getting better, every day. My own experience tells me this.









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RE: What constitutes racial discrimination? - 12/29/2012 3:25:59 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

Yeah, what about the Asians.

Here's some anecdotal experience:

At the university I worked at, all faculty and high level admins (including myself) HAD to attend a 3 day diversity seminar. There were two of them, one for sexual discrimination, one for racial discrimination.

The one for racial discrimination came first in my schedule. In my mind it was almost worthless, since most of the issues involved African Americans, and my grad school held the record for African American admissions (my school really worked at that). However, in talking with FACULTY, many Asian faculty were very disturbed that there was NO INTEREST in how Asian faculty were discriminated against.

It was life, prejudice against African Americans is a current buzzword, against Asians, not so much. It concerned me.

I find a great deal of discrimination in this lovely US of ours, and try to mitigate it as I can. It was an eye opener to see it and discuss it at a university faculty level.

There is much discrimination out there, but it is getting better, every day. My own experience tells me this.



Ya know studies have shown that the diversity sensitivity crap actually makes things worse. 

Maybe we should stop talking about our differences and start talking about what we have in common. 

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RE: What constitutes racial discrimination? - 12/29/2012 3:36:57 PM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		I see it getting better, not worse, Aylee. I think many instances of discrimination now are not intentional... its just people not thinking. The willingness to admit it, then change it, is becoming more palpable to most, it seems.

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RE: What constitutes racial discrimination? - 12/29/2012 4:35:23 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
Knowing all that makes me skeptical of the idea that there's some sort of "level playing field" that kids encounter when they hit first grade.

Oh, there is not. 
Play make believe with me for a moment.  Pretend that all kids progressed at the exact same rate.  Now, let's look at school ages.  Enrollment cut off for first grade is to be 6 years old by September 1st.  Little Bobby's birthday is August 31st.  Little Billy's birthday is September 2nd. 
You have two children a year apart in skills and experience. 
Is this a level playing field for first grade?
(Check out the birthdates of your HS varsity sports teams.  They cluster.)


There is a level (nearly) playing field, but it isn't at first grade. It's at birth. You can't guarantee a level playing field when so much of the playing field has nothing to do with school. An inner city resident is going to tend to have fewer "perks" in life than a resident in a suburb, in general. Is that up to the school or government to make up for? Fuck no, it isn't!

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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RE: What constitutes racial discrimination? - 12/29/2012 4:42:06 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I see it getting better, not worse, Aylee. I think many instances of discrimination now are not intentional... its just people not thinking. The willingness to admit it, then change it, is becoming more palpable to most, it seems.

bingo

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RE: What constitutes racial discrimination? - 12/29/2012 4:44:16 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I see it getting better, not worse, Aylee. I think many instances of discrimination now are not intentional... its just people not thinking. The willingness to admit it, then change it, is becoming more palpable to most, it seems.
{quote}
bingo
bigotry has to be changed one person at a time. Only individuals can change the way they feel.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 12/29/2012 4:45:59 PM >

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RE: What constitutes racial discrimination? - 12/29/2012 5:55:20 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

There is a level (nearly) playing field, but it isn't at first grade. It's at birth.

I'm not so sure about that. My eldest goddaughter's umbilical cord wrapped around her neck in utero, impeding the flow of oxygen to her brain. As a result, she was born with a host of both physical and mental disabilities. Then there are those afflicted with fetal alcohol syndrome or issues relating to premature birth.


quote:

You can't guarantee a level playing field when so much of the playing field has nothing to do with school.

True. Yet the idea that we're all launched into the world with equal opportunities and that the failure to "succeed" reflects only individual failings and not any sort of systemic issues seems to persist in some parts of our society.


quote:

An inner city resident is going to tend to have fewer "perks" in life than a resident in a suburb, in general.

Probably true. It seems a little dismissive, though, to write off key elements of success--decent parenting, the support of a loving and stable family, early and persistent exposure to reading and other educational pursuits, the instilling of a work ethic, adequate medical care, etc.--as "perks."


quote:

Is that up to the school or government to make up for? Fuck no, it isn't!

To whom then does the duty fall?

I suppose we could simply smile amid the success our "perks" helped bring us and say, "Sorry, kids. You lost the socioeconomic lottery, and now you're fucked. Good luck with those bootstraps!"

Personally, I tend toward FDR's perspective: "The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little."

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RE: What constitutes racial discrimination? - 12/29/2012 6:13:41 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

bigotry has to be changed one person at a time. Only individuals can change the way they feel.


At one level, of course, you are quite right.

I think, though, that it's important to distinguish between individual bigotry (what folks think in the recesses of their hearts and minds) and systemic bigotry (the complex web of political and socioeconomic factors that oppress some segments of our society).

Take slavery, for example. When the Thirteenth Amendment went into effect, in late 1865, individual bigotry still ran rampant--even, I suspect, among many of the legislators who voted to enact or ratify the amendment. But ending the systemic bigotry of slavery made a huge difference to the lives of four million Americans--and put a stop to one of the greatest evils in our history. Had Lincoln and co. waited to change one heart at a time, slavery would have persisted for decades more.

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RE: What constitutes racial discrimination? - 12/29/2012 6:43:06 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
But clearly culture is irrelevant in mathmatics itself, so I would think that the culture of the test creator is probably irrelevant too.



What makes you assume that?

Lots of stuff provided by Mr Google on the matter - e.g.

http://chineseculture.about.com/b/2008/12/16/why-are-chinese-better-at-math.htm



" "Take a look at the following list of numbers: 4, 8, 5, 3, 9, 7, 6. Read them out loud. Now look away and spend twenty seconds memorizing that sequence before saying them out loud again. If you speak English, you have about a 50 percent chance of remembering that sequence perfectly. If you're Chinese, though, you're almost certain to get it right every time."

The reason behind this, Gladwell writes, is because humans can store digits in a memory loop that last only about two seconds. In Chinese languages, numbers are shorter, allowing Chinese to both speak and remember those numbers in two seconds -- a fraction of the time it takes to remember those numbers in English.

Moreover, Asian languages such as Chinese, Japanese and Korean have a more logical counting system compared to the irregular ways that numerals are spoken in English. As Gladwell writes: Eleven is ten-one (十一 in Chinese), twelve is ten-two (十二) and thirteen is ten-three (十三) and so on.

Children in Asia thus learn to count faster than English-speaking children. Even fractions are easier for Asian children because they are more easily understood and conceptual. For example one-half (fifty percent) is understood as 百分之五十 (bǎi fēn zhī wǔ shí) or literally, fifty parts out of 100 parts. And because math is more easily understood, Asian children "get" math faster than their Western counterparts. This, Gladwell writes, has nothing to do with some sort of innate Asian proclivity for math. "




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