Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: What constitutes racial discrimination?


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: What constitutes racial discrimination? Page: <<   < prev  1 2 3 [4]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: What constitutes racial discrimination? - 12/29/2012 6:45:11 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline
Whoops, didn't see your post, Aylee. But, correct: Malcolm Gladwell is your man.

_____________________________

http://www.domme-chronicles.com


(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: What constitutes racial discrimination? - 12/29/2012 6:57:42 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

However, in talking with FACULTY, many Asian faculty were very disturbed that there was NO INTEREST in how Asian faculty were discriminated against.

Dear God, that's dispiriting.

In my better moments, I like to hope that folks' own experiences of bigotry and discrimination can serve as conduits for imaginative compassion. Knowing that my immigrant ancestors faced "No Irish Need Apply" signs deepens my awareness of the (sometimes invisible) barriers that others face. (When Sandra Day O'Connor graduated third in her Stanford Law class, she got one job offer--as a legal secretary.)

And the experience of coming out (first to myself and then to others) as a gay man taught me a lot about the self-doubt and even self-loathing that can accompany being part of a minority. (Desmond Tutu once observed that the first time he flew on a plane with a black pilot, he inwardly wondered if a man of his own race was up to the job.)

Unfortunately, though, I think people all too often get caught up in what I call "competitive misery," staking out claims to the biggest share of sympathy and any remediation efforts. This seems particularly pronounced in zero-sum situations (e.g., if the black man gets the sole tenure-track job, the white woman doesn't).

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to ChatteParfaitt)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: What constitutes racial discrimination? - 12/29/2012 7:12:38 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

But clearly culture is irrelevant in mathmatics itself, so I would think that the culture of the test creator is probably irrelevant too.

What makes you assume that?

That was fascinating, Peon. I didn't know. I would still maintain that culture is irrelevant in mathematics; mathematical principles are culture free. But learning mathematics is obviously another matter, and, as your post makes clear, it looks like the language factor may be all that is required to explain the performance difference. So I learned something interesting there. Thanks.

K.

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: What constitutes racial discrimination? - 12/29/2012 8:49:28 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
quote:

There is a level (nearly) playing field, but it isn't at first grade. It's at birth.

I'm not so sure about that. My eldest goddaughter's umbilical cord wrapped around her neck in utero, impeding the flow of oxygen to her brain. As a result, she was born with a host of both physical and mental disabilities. Then there are those afflicted with fetal alcohol syndrome or issues relating to premature birth.


Thus the "nearly" part. But, birth is likely the only place where the playing field is actually level, barring abnormal events involved in the birth.

quote:

quote:

You can't guarantee a level playing field when so much of the playing field has nothing to do with school.

True. Yet the idea that we're all launched into the world with equal opportunities and that the failure to "succeed" reflects only individual failings and not any sort of systemic issues seems to persist in some parts of our society.
quote:

An inner city resident is going to tend to have fewer "perks" in life than a resident in a suburb, in general.

Probably true. It seems a little dismissive, though, to write off key elements of success--decent parenting, the support of a loving and stable family, early and persistent exposure to reading and other educational pursuits, the instilling of a work ethic, adequate medical care, etc.--as "perks."


Very true, but I did put it into quotes as it was not necessarily what I wanted to say, but the best word I could find at the time.

quote:

quote:

Is that up to the school or government to make up for? Fuck no, it isn't!

To whom then does the duty fall?
I suppose we could simply smile amid the success our "perks" helped bring us and say, "Sorry, kids. You lost the socioeconomic lottery, and now you're fucked. Good luck with those bootstraps!"
Personally, I tend toward FDR's perspective: "The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little."


A big part of success or failure has to do with your upbringing, your home life, and your home environment.

Heard a story Thursday at a family gathering. It seems my grandfather, a first generation Italian American was working in a steel mill when he was drafted to go to WWII. The Government went to the foreman (an Irishman) and asked him for a list of all the employees who weren't absolutely essential. Oddly enough, it turned out that all the Italians weren't essential, but all the Irish were. My Grandfather was in the 4th wave that landed on Normandy, and he fought his way up to the Battle of the Bulge where he was captured. He spent 9 months in WWII and was medically discharged. Now, he worked his ass off and my Dad, Uncle, and Aunt were provided a very comfortable life because of his work ethic. My Dad had that same work ethic, and he was working three jobs while going to grad school full-time and being a husband and father of a baby, and a newborn (for the last 6 months of school). This ethic stuck with him and provided my 3 siblings and me with a very comfortable upbringing. We never were truly in need, but we didn't get everything we wanted.

My Grandfather was discriminated against (and was extremely racist himself), yet he did what he had to do. That helped my Dad and his brother and sister get a leg up. Should they have been able to take advantage of that, or did my Grandfather toil for, essentially, nothing? Should my Dad's work ethic not have resulted in a lifestyle that gave us kids a stable life in a suburb? Should his work to better our lives not have resulted in a better life for us?

No, a child born into a slum isn't at fault for his setting. That would be on the parents. It's not easy to pull oneself up out of poverty and could easily take several generations. While that sucks, imagine how much better off that family will be. It takes a lot of work. It takes a completely different mindset and behavior pattern. Those are not things that are likely to be gained by Government largesse, but by some internal motivation.

The President and First Lady had tough path to where they are. They both have stated that the difficulties they faced and overcame made them who they are today. The First Children are reaping the benefits of Michelle and Barack's toiling. Isn't that the way it should be? Denying that struggle and achievement will also reduce the sense of accomplishment, and all the internal benefits it brings.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: What constitutes racial discrimination? - 12/29/2012 8:52:13 PM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Whoops, didn't see your post, Aylee. But, correct: Malcolm Gladwell is your man.


No problem.  Does this mean I don't have to go find the book?  I think that it is the second to last chapter of Outliers. 

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: What constitutes racial discrimination? - 12/29/2012 11:43:42 PM   
graceadieu


Posts: 1518
Joined: 3/20/2008
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

Can someone PLEASE explain to these people that there is a difference between "equality of opportunity" and "equality of outcome"? 

http://definitions.uslegal.com/r/racial-discrimination/

Racial discrimination is the practice of letting a person's race or skin color unfairly become a factor when deciding who receives a job, promotion, or other employment benefit.
 


Sure. I think the issue, though, is that it's often not glaringly obvious when opportunity isn't equal. For example, in this case - why do black employees disproportionally work at poorly performing schools? That needs to be looked into. Was entirely a free choice (a desire to support the inner-city communities they grew up in?), or is there something funny going on in HR with how employees are assigned to positions?

Unfortunately, in our society opportunity often isn't equal. We're getting better about it, but - for example - studies have shown that often employers (male and female) perceive black and/or female candidates as less qualified than white male candidates with identical qualifications, and are less likely to hire them or pay them as well. It may or may not even be a conscious bias, but it's there and a problem.

So when we see a deeply unequal outcome, I think we need to look closely at whether the playing field is really as level as we'd like to think, and if that's the problem, to see if there's something we can do to make sure everybody has opportunity.

(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: What constitutes racial discrimination? - 12/30/2012 12:55:12 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

bigotry has to be changed one person at a time. Only individuals can change the way they feel.


At one level, of course, you are quite right.

I think, though, that it's important to distinguish between individual bigotry (what folks think in the recesses of their hearts and minds) and systemic bigotry (the complex web of political and socioeconomic factors that oppress some segments of our society).

Take slavery, for example. When the Thirteenth Amendment went into effect, in late 1865, individual bigotry still ran rampant--even, I suspect, among many of the legislators who voted to enact or ratify the amendment. But ending the systemic bigotry of slavery made a huge difference to the lives of four million Americans--and put a stop to one of the greatest evils in our history. Had Lincoln and co. waited to change one heart at a time, slavery would have persisted for decades more.

you seem to think we are in disagreement... not

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: What constitutes racial discrimination? - 12/30/2012 1:06:13 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline
Actually, I found both the seminars to be excellent. The one on sexual discrimination was very eye opening to some of the faculty, and I think it helped. Of course, the ones who really needed the seminar didn't bother to show up, though it was supposed to be mandatory (tenured faculty can get away with a lot).

The problem with the one about racial discrimination is that the content was not tailored to the school. If it has been, they would have been dealing with discrimination against Asians. I found it interesting that the presenters did not grab onto this when it was pointed out to them by a few of the Asian faculty.






_____________________________



(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 68
Page:   <<   < prev  1 2 3 [4]
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: What constitutes racial discrimination? Page: <<   < prev  1 2 3 [4]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.078