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The difference between a sub and a slave - 12/31/2012 5:17:36 AM   
lovethyself


Posts: 1818
Joined: 11/4/2012
Status: offline 		So, I was chatting with a Dom online, and he asked me whether I was a sub or a slave. I realized that I don't actually know what the difference is. I know that there is a difference, but I'm not sure what it is. I asked him, and his description made sense, but I would like to hear from others on this.

Is there a difference? Is it a fundamental difference, or is it just degrees of the same thing?

I guess the flip side would also be the difference between a Dom and a Master.

I would love to get other people's perspectives on this, since I am newish to the scene, and the nuances of the different titles sometimes confuse me.

thanks
lts
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RE: The difference between a sub and a slave - 12/31/2012 6:12:56 AM   
FollowingStars


Posts: 32
Joined: 12/24/2012
Status: offline 		We'll see how close I can get...

First off, definitions vary according to who you ask and their own relationship dynamics. I by no means am offering any definitions that apply across the board. That being said, here is my general understanding thus far:

A slave is someone who has given complete control to their partner and their only priority is to serve or obey their partner's desires. A submissive gives up varying degrees of control, and of course seeks to make their partner happy, but their personal needs/desires are still part of the equation. (No offense meant to anyone if I'm wording this wrong... doing the best I can with no caffeine in my system yet).

A Master can mean two things... it can simply be a title within a relationship (usually, from what I've seen, the title Master is applied to one that owns a slave) or it can be used to describe someone that has acquired a high degree of knowledge/experience within the lifestyle. Now, there are certainly those that assume the title in the latter sense that do not have the experience the name suggests, so take that into consideration when you see someone using it. (again, no offense meant to anyone)

Masters are Dominants, but not all Dominants are Masters. Some Dominants are looking for very little overall control, while some...

*sighs* This could take a full page and I'd still feel like I'm explaining it wrong. I'm handing off to someone else for now, before I confuse you more than you already are, lol.

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(in reply to lovethyself)
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RE: The difference between a sub and a slave - 12/31/2012 6:38:19 AM   
lovethyself


Posts: 1818
Joined: 11/4/2012
Status: offline 		You're not confusing me at all FollowingStars. What you said about the sub/slave difference is similar to what the Dom said as well. But when I brought it up with the Dom that I just started seeing, he was questioning where I got my defenition from, since by the first defenition I had, what I am is more slave than sub.

Personally, I don't really care what title gets applied to me, as long as I am me and happy with that. I was just curious about where the line is (roughly) so that I can more accurately communicate with others about it. I don't care if He calls me His sub or His slave, as long as He calls me His.

As for Master v Dom differences, I wasn't even thinking of the Master title as it relates to outside of a relationship, but you make some really good points. So, thanks.

(in reply to FollowingStars)
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RE: The difference between a sub and a slave - 12/31/2012 6:42:01 AM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline 		Chuckle

Did you ever see the scene in Fiddler on the Roof where half the town insisted that an animal was a horse and the other half insisted it was a mule? Or see a bunch of geeks arguing which version of Star Trek was the best?

Suffice it to say that the distinction between sub and slave is still argued upon.

If that Dom was intelligent, he was at least as concerned about what your own definitions were, as which one you considered yourself to be.

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

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RE: The difference between a sub and a slave - 12/31/2012 6:54:53 AM   
lizi


Posts: 4673
Joined: 2/1/2009
Status: offline 		Don't worry, you'll find your way with this question and figure out your own personal answer to it with time. It does vary from person to person what they think is a sub or a slave is- it's a good question to bring up with the person you are considering partnership with and see if your definitions match up. Since you don't have a definition yet, it's good you are testing the subject out.

Very broadly, a slave tends to be someone who gives over control and decision making power to their Master, and then does whatever is asked of them from that point on. Usually, they don't have a veto power; their only recourse in a relationship is to leave it. A submissive does what their Dominant wishes within an agreed upon framework, while retaining some veto power.

If you want to know more, try the search feature on this page and you'll find a plethora of entries on this topic

(in reply to lovethyself)
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RE: The difference between a sub and a slave - 12/31/2012 6:55:49 AM   
lovethyself


Posts: 1818
Joined: 11/4/2012
Status: offline 		lol. I know what you mean DarkSteven. And I didn't start this thread because I thought I'd get a websters dictionary defenition of the two. But there should be some generally agreed differences shouldn't there? Otherwise, why are there 2 different terms? Why not just call every submissive person a sub, and leave it up to the people in the relationship to define how far that submission goes. Since there are the two different terms, I would theorize that there are difference between them.

Maybe I should change the question to 'What is the difference between a sub and a slave to you?'

(in reply to DarkSteven)
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RE: The difference between a sub and a slave - 12/31/2012 7:02:54 AM   
myotherself


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From: The cold bit of the UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovethyself


Personally, I don't really care what title gets applied to me, as long as I am me and happy with that. <snip> I don't care if He calls me His sub or His slave, as long as He calls me His.




This is pretty much it for myself and Master too.

When we first decided to try a D/s dynamic, we both agreed I was his sub. His preferred title was Master, but that didn't bother me and that's what I've always called him.

A year and a half later we were discussing our definitions of sub and slave, and aside from agreeing on the major points, it became apparent that I was a slave, by our personal definition.

This is how we define ourselves in our local kink community. Only one person has tried to argue that we are, in fact, Dom and sub, but quite frankly we don't care.



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RE: The difference between a sub and a slave - 12/31/2012 7:04:07 AM   
Pyramus


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Joined: 5/14/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovethyself
Maybe I should change the question to 'What is the difference between a sub and a slave to you?'


To 'me', a sub is to a Top as a slave is to a Dom, where a Top is in scene only in the boudoir while the Dom in always in character.

But that's just me.

(in reply to lovethyself)
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RE: The difference between a sub and a slave - 12/31/2012 7:51:51 AM   
Epytropos


Posts: 699
Joined: 7/23/2011
Status: offline 		There're as many definitions for this as there are people to define them. You're best off asking him to distinguish for you, then picking from his descriptions.

Personally, I use sub to refer to anyone who enjoys or is prone to submission, but is unowned, whether because they don't wish to be a slave or because they're still looking for the right person. A slave is someone who is owned by and submits to a master or mistress. Of course, the definition of ownership and mastery gets complicated beyond description, as Jack London addressed on multiple occasions, but we make do with what we have.

< Message edited by Epytropos -- 12/31/2012 7:52:32 AM >

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I speak only of My Way. Think it not an indictment of Your Way.

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RE: The difference between a sub and a slave - 12/31/2012 9:02:01 AM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lovethyself

But there should be some generally agreed differences shouldn't there? Otherwise, why are there 2 different terms? Why not just call every submissive person a sub, and leave it up to the people in the relationship to define how far that submission goes. Since there are the two different terms, I would theorize that there are difference between them.

Maybe I should change the question to 'What is the difference between a sub and a slave to you?'


I fit what most would describe as a slave, but I don't believe in consensual slavery...so in my world everyone is a submissive.


_____________________________

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The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to lovethyself)
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RE: The difference between a sub and a slave - 12/31/2012 9:09:04 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lovethyself
But there should be some generally agreed differences shouldn't there?

ROFL... We all think there should be. But when you start to think of it, there can't be. Carol is my "wife". There, how much did that tell you about our relationship? Is she nice to me or not? Does she love me? Are we monogamous? Get the point? You can't collapse an entire relationship down into one word.

Otherwise, why are there 2 different terms?
My best guess is that some jackass BDSM leader thought it up as a funny joke to play on the rest of us... "Oh man, if we come up with two words that both mean 'she does what she's told' they'll be arguing over them for decades!"

Maybe I should change the question to 'What is the difference between a sub and a slave to you?
There are two requirements for Carol to retain her collar:

A) She must obey every single command, the first time, without fail. One strike and she's out.
B) She must internalize the idea that she is not a free person. She must see herself as legally enslaved.

Failure at either of those results in the collar coming off and she reverts back to being my submissive wife which is just sort of her default. Although in her case, that'd make virtually no difference at all other than the extremeness of (a) appeals to me. I wouldn't deal in things like "limits" and "consent" under any circumstances at all.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to lovethyself)
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RE: The difference between a sub and a slave - 12/31/2012 9:11:09 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline 		~fast reply~
Now that I think on it, that IS a really good question? Why DO we have 2 words? Does anyone know any actual history? You know... who/where/when?

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to JeffBC)
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RE: The difference between a sub and a slave - 12/31/2012 9:15:31 AM   
AllisonWilder


Posts: 296
Joined: 10/8/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

Maybe I should change the question to 'What is the difference between a sub and a slave to you?
There are two requirements for Carol to retain her collar:

A) She must obey every single command, the first time, without fail. One strike and she's out.
B) She must internalize the idea that she is not a free person. She must see herself as legally enslaved.

Failure at either of those results in the collar coming off and she reverts back to being my submissive wife which is just sort of her default. Although in her case, that'd make virtually no difference at all other than the extremeness of (a) appeals to me. I wouldn't deal in things like "limits" and "consent" under any circumstances at all.


The way you describe your relationship is so incredibly interesting to me.

(in reply to JeffBC)
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RE: The difference between a sub and a slave - 12/31/2012 9:36:44 AM   
AthenaSurrenders


Posts: 3582
Joined: 3/15/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

~fast reply~
Now that I think on it, that IS a really good question? Why DO we have 2 words? Does anyone know any actual history? You know... who/where/when?


We have more than two words. Sub, slave, baby girl, pet, property, bedroom-only submissive, brat, kajira, servant, beta, probably a dozen more and any you could make up too. They are have shades of meaning, and some people might put themselves under multiple categories but they're all attempting to describe the same broad type of orientation.

Why? I'd say it's because labels are convenient ways of expressing ourselves and defining ourselves for others to understand, but at the same time words are woefully inadequate to capture the essence of something as complex as human interaction. So we keep debating the meanings, selecting this word over that one, trying to find a place that feels comfortable. I wonder if BDSM communities in non-English speaking countries have the same debates? English is notoriously heavy in synonyms and vocabulary in comparison to a lot of other languages, so I'd be very curious to know.

Edit for typos

< Message edited by AthenaSurrenders -- 12/31/2012 9:37:31 AM >

_____________________________

Being your slave, what should I do but tend
Upon the hours and times of your desire?

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RE: The difference between a sub and a slave - 12/31/2012 9:44:27 AM   
subpnw


Posts: 11
Joined: 8/7/2011
Status: offline 		IMHO virtually everyone in this community who is submissive, is just that, a submissive, and not a slave.

A submissive volunteers to serve a Dominant and usually has limits which are mutually agreed to. But. even if there are "no limits", which is in reality quite rare, even the fact that there are no limits is in mutual agreement.

A slave on the other hand is forced to submit and has no choice in the matter, and therefore there are no limits as to what can be done to the slave.

Submission is legal in most places as long as it is between mutually consenting adults. Slavery is illegal in most places around the world and should be.

For those reasons the term slave is not applicable to most of us on CM, and being a submissive, i am grateful for that.

(in reply to JeffBC)
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RE: The difference between a sub and a slave - 12/31/2012 10:34:26 AM   
UnholyBear


Posts: 661
Joined: 10/19/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lovethyself


Is there a difference? Is it a fundamental difference, or is it just degrees of the same thing?

I guess the flip side would also be the difference between a Dom and a Master.





Much has to do on how each person perceives and defines what the differences which separates a sub from a slave. Way I see it, it is all in the subtleties and how each dynamic has created their own relationship with that other person.

(in reply to lovethyself)
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RE: The difference between a sub and a slave - 12/31/2012 10:56:21 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline 		OK Athena... but still there is this question I have. My general understanding is "back in the day there were tops and bottoms". I'm kind of curious about the evolution from there to here.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to AthenaSurrenders)
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RE: The difference between a sub and a slave - 12/31/2012 11:01:51 AM   
Longerthanyou


Posts: 48
Joined: 5/2/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
Why DO we have 2 words?


What I would petition for is to ask CM to allow me to search on BOTH sub and submissive at the same time.

(in reply to JeffBC)
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RE: The difference between a sub and a slave - 12/31/2012 11:48:00 AM   
AthenaSurrenders


Posts: 3582
Joined: 3/15/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

OK Athena... but still there is this question I have. My general understanding is "back in the day there were tops and bottoms". I'm kind of curious about the evolution from there to here.


Fair enough then. I'm still sitting at the kids' table, so I can't comment on that.

_____________________________

Being your slave, what should I do but tend
Upon the hours and times of your desire?

(in reply to JeffBC)
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RE: The difference between a sub and a slave - 12/31/2012 11:58:35 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Yeah... Me too in this case. Where is Rover when we need him? I think that was his name anyway.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to AthenaSurrenders)
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