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For the physicists in the house. - 1/1/2013 6:09:38 AM   
Aswad


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Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		Is, by mass-energy equivalence, the thermal energy of an object part of its effective gravitational mass?

Or, phrased differently, does the gravitation of an object depend in part on its heat?

The intuitive answer seems to be yes, but IANAP.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


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RE: For the physicists in the house. - 1/1/2013 6:40:41 AM   
ARIES83


Posts: 3648
Status: offline 		Raising the energy of an object increases it's
mass far as I know...

What you making, a bomb?

-Aries

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RE: For the physicists in the house. - 1/1/2013 6:58:45 AM   
needlesandpins


Posts: 3901
Status: offline 		wouldn't it depend on the substance? while in theory it does i don't know that you'd be able to actually know for sure without ultra sensitive scales.

are you also taking pressure into consideration?

needles

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RE: For the physicists in the house. - 1/1/2013 7:00:17 AM   
JstAnotherSub


Posts: 6174
Status: offline 		The answer is purple...

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yep

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RE: For the physicists in the house. - 1/1/2013 7:18:49 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83

Raising the energy of an object increases it's mass far as I know...


That's why I say the intuitive answer is "yes".

It would seem to be correct, based on how an object will lose energy through radiative cooling and thus end up with less equivalent mass, which in turn should result in lower gavitation, but as we know, not all things in physics are intuitive from the armchair (which is where I'm at when it comes to physics, of course).

quote:

What you making, a bomb?


Nah, I haven't made a bomb in years. Fun to explore (I shan't say "play with", which you shouldn't do), but not very challenging if you're sticking to what won't get your local DHS equivalent to pay you a visit, and to me not fun enough to merit the expense of making a large one properly. I guess I might play with a home made mortar at some point, but I doubt I will fashion explosive shells for one. So, no, not a bomb.

Just curious, really. It seems to be an inescapable implication of mass/energy equivalence.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: For the physicists in the house. - 1/1/2013 7:31:40 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

does the gravitation of an object depend in part on its heat?


So getting hot and getting heavy are the same?

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RE: For the physicists in the house. - 1/1/2013 7:34:07 AM   
ARIES83


Posts: 3648
Status: offline 		So no WMDs, then why the physics stuff?

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RE: For the physicists in the house. - 1/1/2013 8:00:20 AM   
InnerExtrovert


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Status: offline 		Only matter has mass. Energy has the potential to be converted to matter. The problem in using mathematical equivalency to express the relationship between mass and energy is that it conveys a sense of simultaneous existence. Time exists in the physical world, but not as a property of equality.

Hey, I know! Let's get out some weighted nipple clamps, burner, and the Cavendish Torsion Balance and do an experiment.

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RE: For the physicists in the house. - 1/1/2013 8:14:34 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: InnerExtrovert
Only matter has mass. Energy has the potential to be converted to matter. The problem in using mathematical equivalency to express the relationship between mass and energy is that it conveys a sense of simultaneous existence. Time exists in the physical world, but not as a property of equality.

I deem this the correct answer.

Random energy will have no significant effect on matter.


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RE: For the physicists in the house. - 1/1/2013 8:26:06 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

So getting hot and getting heavy are the same?


Hot implies temperature, which is porportional to heat, but not the same as heat.

Apart from that, such seems to be the case, to my ignorance.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83

So no WMDs, then why the physics stuff?


Because I'm curious.

I'm like that.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

Edited because I can't post two messages by the time I'm done editing. Sigh.

< Message edited by Aswad -- 1/1/2013 8:27:18 AM >

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RE: For the physicists in the house. - 1/1/2013 8:31:22 AM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: InnerExtrovert

Only matter has mass. Energy has the potential to be converted to matter. The problem in using mathematical equivalency to express the relationship between mass and energy is that it conveys a sense of simultaneous existence. Time exists in the physical world, but not as a property of equality.

Hey, I know! Let's get out some weighted nipple clamps, burner, and the Cavendish Torsion Balance and do an experiment.

I thought Cavendish was scotch whiskey. Must have been the party last night.

I have always thought that one must convert mass into energy and thus the more energy, the less mass and thus...the less gravitational pull.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 1/1/2013 8:36:14 AM >

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RE: For the physicists in the house. - 1/1/2013 8:34:46 AM   
ARIES83


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: InnerExtrovert
Only matter has mass. Energy has the potential to be converted to matter. The problem in using mathematical equivalency to express the relationship between mass and energy is that it conveys a sense of simultaneous existence. Time exists in the physical world, but not as a property of equality.

I deem this the correct answer.

Random energy will have no significant effect on matter.



All energy has mass, look it up.

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RE: For the physicists in the house. - 1/1/2013 8:36:49 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: InnerExtrovert

Hey, I know! Let's get out some weighted nipple clamps, burner, and the Cavendish Torsion Balance and do an experiment.


If you're offering up your own nipples, I'm game. If you want to singe mine, I'm not.

Now, as for the equivalence, I was under the impression that a moving object has an effective mass that is porportional to the speed of its movement. If that is incorrect, I would appreciate a correction. If it's actually correct, I fail to see how this wouldn't also be the case for the thermal motion within the object, and would also appreciate being shown how that isn't so (random movements leading to a net zero contribution?).

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: For the physicists in the house. - 1/1/2013 8:46:13 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83
All energy has mass

I have a better idea: I will tell that to this photon here.

"Hey photon! Stop! Circle me! You have got mass, don't you know? Aries says so."

Damn them hurrying buffalo's! That photon did not stop! It just ignored me and kept on going at lightspeed. Helmsman, accelerate to warp 1. We have got to catch up with that photon so that we can berate it for its obstinate behavior! Engage!"


_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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RE: For the physicists in the house. - 1/1/2013 8:55:30 AM   
ARIES83


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Status: offline 		photons have relativistic mass proportional their momentum rule...

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RE: For the physicists in the house. - 1/1/2013 9:03:25 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		Let me guess: Relativistic mass is not actual mass, is it?

Isn't relativism built on the false premise that the dimension of time ought to be regarded as a dimension of space?

Just to be obstinate, I declare: There is no such thing as relativistic mass. (Henceforth to be known as the Law of Rule.)

Aswad, your heretical line of inquiry may cause you to be defenestrated.

_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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RE: For the physicists in the house. - 1/1/2013 9:10:14 AM   
ARIES83


Posts: 3648
Status: offline 		You'd have to ask Einstein.

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RE: For the physicists in the house. - 1/1/2013 9:23:09 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		Einstein is a photon?

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"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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RE: For the physicists in the house. - 1/1/2013 9:31:04 AM   
ARIES83


Posts: 3648
Status: offline 		If your talking to photons, ask him why he's
effected by gravity.
Then tell Aswad, might help his question.

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RE: For the physicists in the house. - 1/1/2013 9:41:46 AM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
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Status: offline 		Photons do have mass. I can think of 2 good proofs. 1 is "Gravitational lensing" where light is actuallr bent around a massive object. This can be explained by the flight of a photon being bent by gravity. As gravity only affects massive objects, a photon must have mass.
"Photonic pressure" also shows they have mass. Photons impinging on an object will push that object by imparting their inertia to that object.
A photon's mass is tiny but anything travelling at light speed packs a punch out of proportion to its mass.


Back to the OP. Maybe I mistunderstand you but the thermal energy of an object in my definition is the heat contained in that object. heat is an artifact of atomic/molecular vibration.
This doesn't add to the mass. An object at 1 Mil K or more will have the same mass as that object at 0 Absolute.

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