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Sadly, A Central Tenet Of Our Public Morality Is The Ethic Of Revenge


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Sadly, A Central Tenet Of Our Public Morality Is The Et... - 1/3/2013 11:32:02 AM   
Fightdirecto


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Mark Ostler, Professor of Law, University of St. Thomas, "Newtown: An Indictment Of The Ethic Of Revenge"
quote:

How can this happen? Some will blame the evil that hid within the shooter, and they are, of course, right. Others will blame guns, and they are right, too. It appears, contrary to the arguments of Second Amendment enthusiasts, that arming ourselves to the teeth with guns does not prevent this kind of tragedy. Still, even with that, there is something broader and deeper at work in this and other recent shootings; a crucial spiritual flaw woven into our social fabric.

OUR SOCIETY IS IN THRALL TO THE IDEA OF REVENGE. It is the central plot device in so much of what we consider to be entertainment. HOW MANY MOVIES FEATURE A HERO STRIKING BACK AT THOSE WHO WRONGED HIM? OVER AND OVER, OUR CHILDREN AND TEENAGERS SIT BESIDE US AND THRILL TO THE STORY OF A MAN WITH A GUN WHO FINDS A WAY TO EXACT RETRIBUTION. It is Luke Skywalker destroying the Death Star, it is James Bond watching his tormentor die, it is the unnamed assailant finally killing Tony Soprano. THE OBTAINING OF REVENGE HAS VALUE TO US, AND GIVES US MEANING. THE GLORIFICATION OF KILLING IN THE SERVICE OF PERSONAL RETRIBUTION IS A DEEPLY HELD PUBLIC VALUE.

The reach of this ethic goes far beyond movies and television, though. Our president ran for re-election largely on the grandest revenge fantasy of all: the killing of Osama bin Laden. And, to close the circle, the most-awaited movie of the season is a re-creation of that event.

What is the cost of celebrating this value over and over and over? WHAT MIGHT BE THE EFFECT OF DECLARING THAT RETRIBUTION IS A HIGH VIRTUE - OF TEACHING EXACTLY THAT TO THE WEAK AND THE STRONG, THE YOUNG AND THE OLD, THE MENTALLY ABLE AND THOSE WHO ARE INFIRM IN THOUGHT AND EMOTION? WHAT DO WE THINK MIGHT HAPPEN WHEN A MENTALLY ILL PERSON IS TAUGHT THAT A MAN'S HIGHEST AND BEST USE CAN BE SHOOTING DOWN THOSE WHO HAVE WRONGED US?

We are seeing the fruit of this celebration with each bullet that kills an innocent in a school or in a mall or at an office. SOMETIMES THOSE BULLETS ARE AIMED AT A SPECIFIC PERSON FROM WHOM REVENGE IS BEING EXACTED: A FORMER EMPLOYER, AN EX-LOVER, OR PARENTS WHO FAILED TO BE GOOD ENOUGH. OTHER TIMES, THE REVENGE IS ON SOCIETY, ON THE CROWDS AT A MALL OR A SCHOOL.

The ethic of revenge is contrary to the teachings of every major religion, and the fact that it has become a central tenet of our public morality represents a failure of our faith leaders. In our rush to indict the gays or the immigrants or the conservatives or the literalists, we have utterly failed to lead a nation of faith to the values of that faith. By defining ourselves by what we are not, we have abrogated the responsibility to define what we are, and where our principles lead. We have left a vacuum filled by movie-makers, television, and a toxic get-tough political culture.


An Indictment of the Ethic of Revenge

Some movie examples:

Death Wish 1, 2, 3 & 4
Kill Bill
Payback
Cape Fear
Gladiator
Rolling Thunder
The Unforgiven
Braveheart
Inglourious Basterds
Taken
Carrie
Star Trek II, Wrath of Khan
The Princess Bride

Literature:
The Count Of Monte Cristo
Hamlet
Othello

Lastly:
quote:

"Revenge is the foundation of justice. Justice began with revenge, and revenge is still the only justice some beings can ever hope for."

Emperor Palpataine to Anakin Skywalker in Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith



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RE: Sadly, A Central Tenet Of Our Public Morality Is Th... - 1/3/2013 11:51:21 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

The ethic of revenge is contrary to the teachings of every major religion


Is it? I vaguely recall a bit of the old revenge stuff going on in the Bible. Doing God's work for him, and all that. No?

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RE: Sadly, A Central Tenet Of Our Public Morality Is Th... - 1/3/2013 11:54:06 AM   
Powergamz1


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That was the movies too... Cecil B Demille, if I recall correctly.


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

The ethic of revenge is contrary to the teachings of every major religion


Is it? I vaguely recall a bit of the old revenge stuff going on in the Bible. Doing God's work for him, and all that. No?



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RE: Sadly, A Central Tenet Of Our Public Morality Is Th... - 1/3/2013 12:05:12 PM   
kdsub


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I don't believe using movies as examples of the average humans response to personal wrongs is a weak argument.

But I do get the idea but I… choose a different word than Revenge...Justice.

Butch


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RE: Sadly, A Central Tenet Of Our Public Morality Is Th... - 1/3/2013 1:32:55 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto
Mark Ostler, Professor of Law, University of St. Thomas, "Newtown: An Indictment Of The Ethic Of Revenge"
quote:

How can this happen? Some will blame the evil that hid within the shooter, and they are, of course, right. Others will blame guns, and they are right, too. It appears, contrary to the arguments of Second Amendment enthusiasts, that arming ourselves to the teeth with guns does not prevent this kind of tragedy.


The Mother's death is the only one that applies here, and even that part isn't necessarily germane. The real tragedy was the school kids, and, in schools, it's illegal to be "armed to the teeth with guns."

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RE: Sadly, A Central Tenet Of Our Public Morality Is Th... - 1/3/2013 2:43:30 PM   
jlf1961


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Revenge assumes that all you want to do is get even.... I like to collect lots of interest.

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Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

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RE: Sadly, A Central Tenet Of Our Public Morality Is Th... - 1/3/2013 3:37:01 PM   
meatcleaver


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Revenge is a base instinct, it's primitive and doesn't require thought. Which just about sums up contemporary society, people who think are looked down on by the majority. At least the professor is thinking but sadly, probably to no avail.

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RE: Sadly, A Central Tenet Of Our Public Morality Is Th... - 1/3/2013 4:48:21 PM   
kalikshama


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quote:

Some movie examples:


My personal favorite - "I Spit on Your Grave" (1978 version; have not seen the new one.)

Interestingly, while I really like revenge movies, I'm not an Eye for an Eye person outside of the theater. Nor am I a Turn the Other Cheek chick (except in bed, lol.) I Move On in my personal life and would like to see Rehabilitation or Incarceration when it comes to criminals.

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RE: Sadly, A Central Tenet Of Our Public Morality Is Th... - 1/3/2013 5:08:55 PM   
Nosathro


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

Some movie examples:


My personal favorite - "I Spit on Your Grave" (1978 version; have not seen the new one.)

Interestingly, while I really like revenge movies, I'm not an Eye for an Eye person outside of the theater. Nor am I a Turn the Other Cheek chick (except in bed, lol.) I Move On in my personal life and would like to see Rehabilitation or Incarceration when it comes to criminals.


Wonderful movie I own a copy of the unrated version. But for me the most classical revenge show is Shakespear's "Hamlet", Kenneth Branagh version was the best movie.

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RE: Sadly, A Central Tenet Of Our Public Morality Is Th... - 1/3/2013 5:11:44 PM   
Aylee


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I wonder how the Carthaginians feels about revenge being a new idea. 

ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

< Message edited by Aylee -- 1/3/2013 5:12:30 PM >


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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

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RE: Sadly, A Central Tenet Of Our Public Morality Is Th... - 1/3/2013 5:16:16 PM   
Aylee


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I would bet that Tamerlane would have also loved to hear about this new-fangled "revenge" thingie. 

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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

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RE: Sadly, A Central Tenet Of Our Public Morality Is Th... - 1/3/2013 8:14:27 PM   
Marini


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quote:

THE OBTAINING OF REVENGE HAS VALUE TO US, AND GIVES US MEANING. THE GLORIFICATION OF KILLING IN THE SERVICE OF PERSONAL RETRIBUTION IS A DEEPLY HELD PUBLIC VALUE.


"The Ethic of Revenge"

What an interesting thread, I agree that a large percentage of murders/violent crimes are based on some sort of revenge.

sigh, I should feel guilty about loving the Kill Bill movies, but I don't.
There are a few of us, that can watch movies, and not internalize the violence.

< Message edited by Marini -- 1/3/2013 8:18:28 PM >


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"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
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RE: Sadly, A Central Tenet Of Our Public Morality Is Th... - 1/3/2013 8:30:25 PM   
jlf1961


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Well my ancestry is welsh, irish, apache, cherokee, scot-irish, and dutch. My father's family hails from the hills of Western North Carolina from a county fondly referred to as Bloody Madison.

Revenge with interest is in my blood, it is genetic.

For example, you shoot at me with a BB gun, I retaliate with heavy artillery.

I have submitted the proper paper work that would allow me to purchase a WW2 76mm anti tank gun, working of course.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

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RE: Sadly, A Central Tenet Of Our Public Morality Is Th... - 1/3/2013 8:37:55 PM   
Marini


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Alrighty now!

What happens if I step on your foot?

Just kidding.

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to jlf1961)
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RE: Sadly, A Central Tenet Of Our Public Morality Is Th... - 1/3/2013 9:31:49 PM   
jlf1961


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

Alrighty now!

What happens if I step on your foot?

Just kidding.


I park a tractor trailer on your foot.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to Marini)
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RE: Sadly, A Central Tenet Of Our Public Morality Is Th... - 1/3/2013 9:36:22 PM   
Marini


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

Alrighty now!

What happens if I step on your foot?

Just kidding.


I park a tractor trailer on your foot.


My poor foot!
I guess "turn the other cheek" is lost on you?
If someone throws a pebble at you, you throw a boulder at them.
I get it.

Thanks for the chuckles, it's nice to laugh, though the subject matter here is serious.

< Message edited by Marini -- 1/3/2013 9:43:42 PM >


_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to jlf1961)
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RE: Sadly, A Central Tenet Of Our Public Morality Is Th... - 1/3/2013 9:43:22 PM   
jlf1961


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it is my opinion that vengeance is the driving force in many decisions made by a society.

Hitler started his war because of the way that Germany was treated after WW1.

The War on Drugs under Reagan was not an attempt to bring Colombian drug lords to justice, there were quite a few covert military operations with the sole purpose of eliminating drug lords.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to Marini)
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RE: Sadly, A Central Tenet Of Our Public Morality Is Th... - 1/3/2013 9:48:40 PM   
Marini


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quote:

it is my opinion that vengeance is the driving force in many decisions made by a society.

Hitler started his war because of the way that Germany was treated after WW1.

The War on Drugs under Reagan was not an attempt to bring Colombian drug lords to justice, there were quite a few covert military operations with the sole purpose of eliminating drug lords.


Many people would consider this tenet of "revenge/vengeance philosophy" one of the forces that is destroying civilization.

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to jlf1961)
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RE: Sadly, A Central Tenet Of Our Public Morality Is Th... - 1/3/2013 10:02:03 PM   
jlf1961


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

quote:

it is my opinion that vengeance is the driving force in many decisions made by a society.

Hitler started his war because of the way that Germany was treated after WW1.

The War on Drugs under Reagan was not an attempt to bring Colombian drug lords to justice, there were quite a few covert military operations with the sole purpose of eliminating drug lords.


Many people would consider this tenet of "revenge/vengeance philosophy" one of the forces that is destroying civilization.



The reasons for the destruction of civilization is not so much the revenge/vengeance cycle but the fact that humans, while social animals, never seem to be able to build a workable form of government that lasts any length of time, except for one, the Roman Empire that lasted for over 1400 years.

Democracies seem to be short lived, judging from the few that are known from ancient Greece. The Republic of Rome was one of the shortest lived in history.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to Marini)
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RE: Sadly, A Central Tenet Of Our Public Morality Is Th... - 1/3/2013 10:20:09 PM   
mons


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op

Here is another movie that had revenge as it major "theme" Birth of a Nation" this movie held it
own thought "kill or be taken over by the people whom were just given freedom" !


Mons

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