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Seriously, though, I said I'd give it another shot in 2013, which we're now in, so I'm fine with giving you a bit more attention now.

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I'm not even sure it's still around. You were on about how American media are saturated with guns and violence and glorify both, and how that would be a negative influence, something you also touched on in a thread where you (and I'm still grateful) reminded me that there's a purpose behind killings most of the time, that guns and bombs are chosen for reasons other than efficiency, etc. So, yes, it's something you've mentioned in the past, more than once, and no, I don't see it as necessary to go hunting for it.

Violence has dropped off with the increase in consumption of violent media, which is one of those persistent problems in the argument that violent media are to blame for the nonexistent increase in violence itself. The only correlation we've found around these parts is, a number of people with difficulties seek refuge in games and other media, effectively self neutralizing for a while, strongly suggesting a causal order where we can't really pin anything on violence in media, but might potentially ascribe to violent media a curbing effect.

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ORIGINAL: Aswad
Actually, if you have a look at the parts about an eye for an eye, for instance, that's not in favor of vengeance, but rather against disporportionate retribution.

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
Me, I frequently take to the skies in my Spitfire Mk 9 to take out attacking Luftwaffe squadrons in Combat Flight Simulator 3. For me, this is about as channeled a kind of violence as playing tennis. I don't, afterwards, go out wanting to hit people, even if they're German. On the other hand, I gave up karate after a couple of years in my early twenties partly because it made me feel edgy and aggressive and I didn't like that feeling.
I'm not sure if there was a point to the foregoing. Or maybe the fact that there wasn't a point, is the point.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

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ORIGINAL: jlf1961
May I point out that revenge is the Jewish, Christian and Muslim approved way of handling problems? I mean the bible does say an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

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an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.

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ORIGINAL: kdsub

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an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.

I think in context the above quote was all about household slaves and oxen falling in holes and the proper division of the carcass.

Butch

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ORIGINAL: jlf1961

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ORIGINAL: kdsub

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an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.

I think in context the above quote was all about household slaves and oxen falling in holes and the proper division of the carcass.

Butch

Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
Exodus 21:24-25

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ORIGINAL: Aswad
One of the problems with vengeance being that it's not very well targetted. When you get angry enough to go killing people out of a personal idea of vengeance, you usually aren't in a frame of mind to be very discriminate about who deserves what and why. If you have a look at vincentML's thread about the rehab vs punishment side of things after Sandy Hook, or even now in the football rapists' thread, the sentiment isn't exactly governed by logic; when emotion carries the day, outcomes tend to go the wrong way (kind of like the whole "road to hell is paved with good intentions" thing, which is a positive emote leading- predictably- to a negative outcome).

Columbine was clearly vengeance. It occured to me, too, at that age. I just happened to be more levelheaded. Enough so to realize going amok would just harm a lot of people that had never hurt me. At minimum, the parents of those that actually had, and the bystanders. In general, though, people don't have that degree of specificity of direction to their emotions. Just look at all the people that wanted to have Lanza tortured to death, without a care for what needless suffering that would inflict on his remaining relatives, for instance. And that was supposedly adult, mature people, whose emotions should be more under control and more well directed than that of children. Blows my mind that we're even considering the notion that these are people capable of consent in a meaningful sense, with such reasoning as that (if we can even call it reasoning when it's probably emotionally driven), but that's a sidebar and straying far OT.

No, forgiveness seems like a more productive route, though more challenging.

It's a route I'm glad I chose, myself, and one I try to stick with.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

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ORIGINAL: GotSteel

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ORIGINAL: Aswad
Actually, if you have a look at the parts about an eye for an eye, for instance, that's not in favor of vengeance, but rather against disporportionate retribution.

That's a creative way to spin a clearly pro proportional vengeance passage.

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ORIGINAL: jlf1961

May I point out that revenge is the Jewish, Christian and Muslim approved way of handling problems? I mean the bible does say an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.

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Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
Exodus 21:24-25

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ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

I think "revenge" is a very primal emotion. I also think the more civilized a society is, the more constraints are placed on a person's ability to extract personal revenge that causes serious physical or other harm. I feel a properly functioning society should have a system of policing and justice in place that puts the responsibility and right of revenge on "society" as opposed to the individual who was wronged.

Vigilantism might be necessary if a society's policing and judicial structures are not functioning properly, but in a well functioning society, vigilantism should not be necessary at all - and therefore not tolerated at all either.

While it is easier for us to think of "revenge" as the parent who shoots his child's killer, let us remember that "revenge"/vigilantism was also at the root of things like lynchings of blacks in the south. Civilization demands a separation of revenge from the individual who was wronged - otherwise you have lawlessness.

Man has been fighting against their "vengeful" tendencies since the beginning. Advocating against vigilantism does not mean the primal urges will go away. It just means we all have to agree that vigilantism is not the way to police and judge.

I completely disagree with Ostler's notion that vigilantism comes to us from the media and entertainment world. NO. It comes from inside each of us.

The reason we find it so entertaining is it speaks to our primal natures. But I don't believe entertainment causes us to seek revenge against our wrongdoers any more than we normally would. Revenge and vigilantism have been with us since the beginning. But like so many things in the human world, we have to allow our better selves to override our baser instincts.

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ORIGINAL: kdsub

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Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
Exodus 21:24-25

HERE YA GO...HAVE FUN READING TO GET THE CONTEXT OF THE WORDING:


20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.

21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.

22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

26 And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake.

27 And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake.

28 If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned, and his flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall be quit.

29 But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death.

30 If there be laid on him a sum of money, then he shall give for the ransom of his life whatsoever is laid upon him.

31 Whether he have gored a son, or have gored a daughter, according to this judgment shall it be done unto him.

32 If the ox shall push a manservant or a maidservant; he shall give unto their master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned.

33 And if a man shall open a pit, or if a man shall dig a pit, and not cover it, and an ox or an ass fall therein;

34 The owner of the pit shall make it good, and give money unto the owner of them; and the dead beast shall be his.

35 And if one man's ox hurt another's, that he die; then they shall sell the live ox, and divide the money of it; and the dead ox also they shall divide.

36 Or if it be known that the ox hath used to push in time past, and his owner hath not kept him in; he shall surely pay ox for ox; and the dead shall be his own.

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22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

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ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

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22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

Am I reading this correctly. That "an eye for eye" etc. is used in ONE context only. That of men hurting a woman with child where mischief follows (meaning what....rape of a pregnant woman?)

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ORIGINAL: GotSteel

That's a creative way to spin a clearly pro proportional vengeance passage.

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ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

I feel a properly functioning society should have a system of policing and justice in place that puts the responsibility and right of revenge on "society" as opposed to the individual who was wronged.

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Vigilantism might be necessary if a society's policing and judicial structures are not functioning properly, but in a well functioning society, vigilantism should not be necessary at all - and therefore not tolerated at all either.

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I completely disagree with Ostler's notion that vigilantism comes to us from the media and entertainment world. NO. It comes from inside each of us.