RE: Why was the 2nd Amendment written and added to the Constitution. (Full Version)

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jlf1961 -> RE: Why was the 2nd Amendment written and added to the Constitution. (1/4/2013 7:17:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

The military, in Jefferson's time, was to run two years before needing congressional approval again. The military also did not provide arms.

Do you see the problem with pulling up the past to excuse the present?



Actually, no.

Look at Israel and Switzerland.




tazzygirl -> RE: Why was the 2nd Amendment written and added to the Constitution. (1/4/2013 7:26:15 AM)

Also a handgun ban.... lol... interesting....

Summary of 2013 legislation

Following is a summary of the 2013 legislation:

Bans the sale, transfer, importation, or manufacturing of:
120 specifically-named firearms;
Certain other semiautomatic rifles, handguns, shotguns that can accept a detachable magazine and have one or more military characteristics; and
Semiautomatic rifles and handguns with a fixed magazine that can accept more than 10 rounds.

Strengthens the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban and various state bans by:
Moving from a 2-characteristic test to a 1-characteristic test;
Eliminating the easy-to-remove bayonet mounts and flash suppressors from the characteristics test; and
Banning firearms with “thumbhole stocks” and “bullet buttons” to address attempts to “work around” prior bans.

Bans large-capacity ammunition feeding devices capable of accepting more than 10 rounds.

Protects legitimate hunters and the rights of existing gun owners by:
Grandfathering weapons legally possessed on the date of enactment;
Exempting over 900 specifically-named weapons used for hunting or sporting purposes; and
Exempting antique, manually-operated, and permanently disabled weapons.

Requires that grandfathered weapons be registered under the National Firearms Act, to include:
Background check of owner and any transferee;
Type and serial number of the firearm;
Positive identification, including photograph and fingerprint;
Certification from local law enforcement of identity and that possession would not violate State or local law; and
Dedicated funding for ATF to implement registration.

A pdf of the bill summary is available here.




Nosathro -> RE: Why was the 2nd Amendment written and added to the Constitution. (1/4/2013 7:36:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Actually, for his time, he was right. At that time in history, a standing military force had one purpose, to expand an empire. In fact history has shown that empires with large standing armies had to expand to support those armies, otherwise they weren't needed.

The Swiss does not have a standing army, and havent had one for its entire history.


Switzerland does have a standing army, it just does not participate in NATO due to Swiss neutrality.
In fact they have had a standing army for some time. There have been many attempts to abolish the army one of the most recent was in 1989.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Switzerland


There were reason for US to have a militia, one was it was already in place. The US also had alot of debt and a standing army is expensive. Also some like James Madison had concerns about having a standing army that may attempt a putsch.






jlf1961 -> RE: Why was the 2nd Amendment written and added to the Constitution. (1/4/2013 7:38:31 AM)

The problem is very simple, it means simply that buy registering the existing weapons with the ATF under a rewritten NFA, would include a fairly hefty fee.

So that comes down to the fact that those supporting such legislation would like to take money from the pockets of law abiding citizens, over and above what was already paid in registration fees and taxes on purchase.

May I point out that the previous ban was in force at the time of Columbine, did it prevent that incident?

Data published earlier this year showed that while the ban was in place, from 1994 to 2004, the number of mass shootings actually rose slightly during that period.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/12/24/history-gives-mixed-grade-to-impact-assault-weapons-ban/#ixzz2H1Ny0gCR

Sorry the original ban didnt work, the new one wont do a damn thing that the writers want it to do, and it is not going to do a damn thing to prevent gun crimes in the slightest.

Once more the gun control people are penalizing the law abiding gun owners because of the actions of a very small percentage, less than 1% actually to achieve nothing in the long run.

When are these anti gun hypocrites going to focus on the major problem of illegal guns used by career criminals on a day to day basis?

Yup, lets attack the law abiding and forget the criminal element. Makes about as much sense as doing a tonsillectomy by way of the rectum or putting a milk bucket under a bull.




LizDeluxe -> RE: Why was the 2nd Amendment written and added to the Constitution. (1/4/2013 7:39:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
The original version of the 2nd amendment was as follows:

The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well-armed and well-regulated militia being the best security of a free country; but no person religiously scrupulous of baring arms shall be compelled to render military service in person.

Congress moved the individual rights to be secondary to the security of a free country, and of course dropped the religious exemption all together.

What this means is that the security of the state is primary, the rights of the individual are secondary but not eliminated.


By comparison the 1st Amendment reads:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

If we use the primary/secondary logic then freedom of religion is primary to freedom of speech and even within that the individual's right of free speech is primary to freedom of the press while peaceable assembly and petition of the government come in last. I disagree that the order in which rights are denoted in an amendment equates to any primary/secondary weight. I think the more important aspect of the 2nd is the phrase "the right of the people" which also appears in the 1st and 4th amendments. Odd that so many believe that the 1st and 4th clearly denote individual liberties while the 2nd does not.




paulfrmfra -> RE: Why was the 2nd Amendment written and added to the Constitution. (1/4/2013 7:57:51 AM)

Because many people drive like idiots I am forced to endure exceedingly understated speed limits, traffic calming methods and devices, and the ever present revenue raisers. But until drivers' education is raised to a respectable level and the drivers themselves are screened better for mental health, well, it's the system we have. Far from perfect.

One lunatic puts some explosive shit in his shoes and now we're all being veritably strip-searched at airports.

One lunatic tried to blow off his nuts in an airplane over Detroit and now we have full body X-rays for every flying passenger in the US.

Get where I'm going with this...?

And dare we REALLY look at the 2nd Amendment...




Nosathro -> RE: Why was the 2nd Amendment written and added to the Constitution. (1/4/2013 8:00:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

The problem is very simple, it means simply that buy registering the existing weapons with the ATF under a rewritten NFA, would include a fairly hefty fee.

So that comes down to the fact that those supporting such legislation would like to take money from the pockets of law abiding citizens, over and above what was already paid in registration fees and taxes on purchase.

May I point out that the previous ban was in force at the time of Columbine, did it prevent that incident?

Data published earlier this year showed that while the ban was in place, from 1994 to 2004, the number of mass shootings actually rose slightly during that period.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/12/24/history-gives-mixed-grade-to-impact-assault-weapons-ban/#ixzz2H1Ny0gCR

Sorry the original ban didnt work, the new one wont do a damn thing that the writers want it to do, and it is not going to do a damn thing to prevent gun crimes in the slightest.

Once more the gun control people are penalizing the law abiding gun owners because of the actions of a very small percentage, less than 1% actually to achieve nothing in the long run.

When are these anti gun hypocrites going to focus on the major problem of illegal guns used by career criminals on a day to day basis?

Yup, lets attack the law abiding and forget the criminal element. Makes about as much sense as doing a tonsillectomy by way of the rectum or putting a milk bucket under a bull.


And when are all the gun owners going to stop believeing that owning guns will end crime. Currently we have in the public domain a firearm for just about every man woman and child....crime still happens. We have some 2.3 million people behind bars.




tazzygirl -> RE: Why was the 2nd Amendment written and added to the Constitution. (1/4/2013 8:03:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

The military, in Jefferson's time, was to run two years before needing congressional approval again. The military also did not provide arms.

Do you see the problem with pulling up the past to excuse the present?



Actually, no.

Look at Israel and Switzerland.


Yeah, look at Isreal. All peaceful, yes?

quote:

The Swiss does not have a standing army, and havent had one for its entire history.


The Military of Switzerland perform the roles of Switzerland's militia and regular army. Under the country's militia system, professional soldiers constitute about 5 percent of military personnel; the rest are male citizen conscripts 19 to 34 (in some cases up to 50) years old. Because of a long history of neutrality, the army does not take part in armed conflicts in other countries, but takes part in peacekeeping missions around the world.

They have a standing army.

quote:

Israel has a total military manpower of 3,511,190 with a standing army of 187,000. It has never been successfully invaded, even when outnumbered and against countries with better equipment.


Successfully invaded? Curious choice of words. They have been invaded.

The largest army is Chinas, almost double ours. Our reserves double theirs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_active_troops

Something also of note. Israel is 5th highest when looking at the total per 1000 capita in the military and 4th highest when it comes to the active per capita... at 22.2 . The US... 4.7. The Swiss, 2.9.

749,550.... Israel total military.... 7,956,000 their population. Roughly 10% of their country is military.

The US.... 2,927,754 .. total military excluding local state and federal police..... population we already know is around 311,591,917, ... less than 1%.

The Swiss.... 276,130... population.... 7,907,000... 3%.

Both the Swiss and Israel have conscription, the US does not.

quote:

Switzerland has mandatory military service (German: Militärdienst; French: service militaire; Italian: servizio militare) in the Swiss Army for all able-bodied male citizens, who are conscripted when they reach the age of majority,[1] though women may volunteer for any position.[2]
People determined unfit for service, where fitness is defined as "satisfying physically, intellectually and mentally requirements for military service or civil protection service and being capable of accomplishing these services without harming oneself or others",[3] are exempted from service but pay an additional 3% of annual income tax until the age of 30, unless they are affected by a disability.[4]



In all honesty, can we really compare these countries? Pointing to Israel and Swiss as excuses to pull the past as an excuse for the present does not work.




Nosathro -> RE: Why was the 2nd Amendment written and added to the Constitution. (1/4/2013 8:22:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

The problem is very simple, it means simply that buy registering the existing weapons with the ATF under a rewritten NFA, would include a fairly hefty fee.

So that comes down to the fact that those supporting such legislation would like to take money from the pockets of law abiding citizens, over and above what was already paid in registration fees and taxes on purchase.

May I point out that the previous ban was in force at the time of Columbine, did it prevent that incident?

Data published earlier this year showed that while the ban was in place, from 1994 to 2004, the number of mass shootings actually rose slightly during that period.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/12/24/history-gives-mixed-grade-to-impact-assault-weapons-ban/#ixzz2H1Ny0gCR

Sorry the original ban didnt work, the new one wont do a damn thing that the writers want it to do, and it is not going to do a damn thing to prevent gun crimes in the slightest.

Once more the gun control people are penalizing the law abiding gun owners because of the actions of a very small percentage, less than 1% actually to achieve nothing in the long run.

When are these anti gun hypocrites going to focus on the major problem of illegal guns used by career criminals on a day to day basis?

Yup, lets attack the law abiding and forget the criminal element. Makes about as much sense as doing a tonsillectomy by way of the rectum or putting a milk bucket under a bull.


And when are all the gun owners going to stop believeing that owning guns will end crime. Currently we have in the public domain a firearm for just about every man woman and child....crime still happens. We have some 2.3 million people behind bars. Yes the kids Columbine got their guns from a friend, Robyn Anderson, who bought the weapons for the kids, now there is a real responsible law bidding gun owner.

Most of the Mass shooting in the US, the weapon were obtained legally. there is some conflict on the rise of shooting as well.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/mass-shootings-map

http://tucsoncitizen.com/usa-today-news/2012/12/14/crime-stats-mass-shootings-are-not-on-the-rise/

And yes law bidding, good All American gun owners. Let see there is one who shoot a 6 year old in back claiming the kid stole guns from him. He shot the kid on the front yard of the kids home, in back, oh and at the time to the so called robbery the kid was school. Then there is the guy in Texas who claimed self defense when he shot a neighbor, a teacher, wound some others, he claimed self defense. Then in Flordia an owner of a shadie tow truck company shot and killed a guy who taking back his car that this guy had illegally towed, under Flordia law you can take your car back if illegally towed. How many more people have to be killed is my questioned.





tazzygirl -> RE: Why was the 2nd Amendment written and added to the Constitution. (1/4/2013 8:28:56 AM)

quote:

The problem is very simple, it means simply that buy registering the existing weapons with the ATF under a rewritten NFA, would include a fairly hefty fee.


Requires that grandfathered weapons be registered under the National Firearms Act

If you dont own the grandfathered weapons, there is no extra fee. I really dont see the problem with this.

quote:

May I point out that the previous ban was in force at the time of Columbine, did it prevent that incident?


And?

Mass shootings in the United States, 1976 to 2010
At least 2,956 people have been killed in 646 mass shootings over a 35-year-period, including 41 victims in Wisconsin. FBI homicide data shows that there is no upward trend in the number of mass shootings or victims during that time. The FBI defines an incident as mass murder if a shooter kills four or more people in a single incident (not including the shooter), and typically in a single location.


1982 showed 23 incidents and 114 victims

1984 18 incidents, 100 victims

1999, the year of Columbine, 107 victims, 21 incidents.

2003, 135 victims, 30 incidents.

2009, 118 victims, 25 incidents

How many of these were schools since Columbine?

April 1999 - two teenage schoolboys shot and killed 12 schoolmates and a teacher at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colorado, before killing themselves.

October 2006 - a truck driver killed five schoolgirls and seriously wounded six others in a school in Nickel Mines, Pennsylvania before taking his own life.

Dec. 14 - A shooter opens fire at the Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut

The worse? Bath School... and a gun was never used, but it claimed the lives of 38 children and 6 adults ... all because he lost the treasury election and he was about to be foreclosed upon. He killed his wife with a blunt object, then blew up the school.

What does all this mean? What does it matter? Its past time we got a handle on these killings.. with an attempt BEFORE they happen.

Yes, mental health is a massive need. Gotta love those who were against the ACA, which actually covers more for mental health than their own insurance policies allowed.... ironic, isnt it? Rail for years against something they are now demanding in place of some kind of gun control.

How I love the hypocrisy!

But they are all looking at that as being the "magic cure" for this problem. And it isnt. To even begin to be effective, it will take years, if not decades, to see a massive turn around in the treatment and effectiveness in dealing with the mentally ill.

What do we do in the mean time? Sit on our hands and sigh? "Oh well, we cant do anything about it. Its the Crazies doing this, not lawful gun owners" Yet, in few of the mass murder cases... and I say few... the guns were lawfully obtained, either through friends or family or on their own.

I believe every gun should be registered. Fienstein doesnt go far enough to suit me. You can own any weapon you want... register it.. be responsible for it... treat it like the dangerous possession that it is.

With rights come responsibilities.




Yachtie -> RE: Why was the 2nd Amendment written and added to the Constitution. (1/4/2013 8:32:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro
And when are all the gun owners going to stop believeing that owning guns will end crime. Currently we have in the public domain a firearm for just about every man woman and child....crime still happens. We have some 2.3 million people behind bars.



That's laughable as an argument. Most victims don't either own a gun or even carry. Guns are used over 1 million times a year preventing crime. Rarely are they ever discharged. You never hear about any of this in the news.




Yachtie -> RE: Why was the 2nd Amendment written and added to the Constitution. (1/4/2013 8:34:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Yeah, look at Isreal. All peaceful, yes?



Damn right, given their situation which your comment ignores.




tazzygirl -> RE: Why was the 2nd Amendment written and added to the Constitution. (1/4/2013 8:53:01 AM)

LOL.. given their situation?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCy8MpT45gk




MrRodgers -> RE: Why was the 2nd Amendment written and added to the Constitution. (1/4/2013 9:03:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

The military, in Jefferson's time, was to run two years before needing congressional approval again. The military also did not provide arms.

Do you see the problem with pulling up the past to excuse the present?

In fact the congress must reauthorize and they do so without public comment and debate...the standing army, every two years.

At such time that they fail to do so (of course they never have) the standing army of today and anytime since some say, without declaration of war...would be unconstitutional.

Given that the US keeps and maintains a standing army, I want to know folks just how long do you think the 'people' with their right to arm themselves could hold off the US military ?

The 2nd amendment didn't hold off any police or military from going door to door during Katrina and confiscating everybody's weapons. Look it up.

Given the above, this discussion has been rendered purposeless. The militarization of the US is a foregone conclusion...a done deal.




Yachtie -> RE: Why was the 2nd Amendment written and added to the Constitution. (1/4/2013 9:25:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Given that the US keeps and maintains a standing army, I want to know folks just how long do you think the 'people' with their right to arm themselves could hold off the US military ?

The 2nd amendment didn't hold off any police or military from going door to door during Katrina and confiscating everybody's weapons. Look it up.

Given the above, this discussion has been rendered purposeless. The militarization of the US is a foregone conclusion...a done deal.



That's a false equivalence, Katrina as opposed to US Military versus US armed population. Tell me though, if ~tyranny could be enacted despite an armed population, why the need to disarm at all? History should tell you that.





Nosathro -> RE: Why was the 2nd Amendment written and added to the Constitution. (1/4/2013 9:40:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro
And when are all the gun owners going to stop believeing that owning guns will end crime. Currently we have in the public domain a firearm for just about every man woman and child....crime still happens. We have some 2.3 million people behind bars.



That's laughable as an argument. Most victims don't either own a gun or even carry. Guns are used over 1 million times a year preventing crime. Rarely are they ever discharged. You never hear about any of this in the news.



I don't find the death of some 30, 000 people per year by firearms laughable...but I guess some do.




Nosathro -> RE: Why was the 2nd Amendment written and added to the Constitution. (1/4/2013 9:51:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Given that the US keeps and maintains a standing army, I want to know folks just how long do you think the 'people' with their right to arm themselves could hold off the US military ?

The 2nd amendment didn't hold off any police or military from going door to door during Katrina and confiscating everybody's weapons. Look it up.

Given the above, this discussion has been rendered purposeless. The militarization of the US is a foregone conclusion...a done deal.



That's a false equivalence, Katrina as opposed to US Military versus US armed population. Tell me though, if ~tyranny could be enacted despite an armed population, why the need to disarm at all? History should tell you that.




Prior to the government we now have, we lived in a Confiderencey of States. It was ineffective, lack leardership, nothing was being done. George Washington, at that time a civilian, the Contential Army he once commanded was disbanded, was called to a then secret meeting of his former Officers. The Officers were planing a coup d'etat and they wanted Washington in it. Washington managed to talk them out of it. Now consider that at that time just about every home had a Musket hang over the fire place, that group felt they didn't need to disarm every one before the coup attempt.




Yachtie -> RE: Why was the 2nd Amendment written and added to the Constitution. (1/4/2013 9:58:29 AM)

fr for the whole article

This will probably come as a total shock to most of my Western readers, but at one point, Russia was one of the most heavily armed societies on earth. This was, of course, when we were free under the Tsar. Weapons, from swords and spears to pistols, rifles and shotguns were everywhere, common items. People carried them concealed, they carried them holstered. Fighting knives were a prominent part of many traditional attires and those little tubes criss crossing on the costumes of Cossacks and various Caucasian peoples? Well those are bullet holders for rifles.

Various armies, such as the Poles, during the ????? (Times of Troubles), or Napoleon, or the Germans even as the Tsarist state collapsed under the weight of WW1 and Wall Street monies, found that holding Russian lands was much much harder than taking them and taking was no easy walk in the park but a blood bath all its own. In holding, one faced an extremely well armed and aggressive population Hell bent on exterminating or driving out the aggressor.

This well armed population was what allowed the various White factions to rise up, no matter how disorganized politically and militarily they were in 1918 and wage a savage civil war against the Reds. It should be noted that many of these armies were armed peasants, villagers, farmers and merchants, protecting their own. If it had not been for Washington's clandestine support of and for the Reds, history would have gone quite differently.

Moscow fell, for example, not from a lack of weapons to defend it, but from the lieing guile of the Reds. Ten thousand Reds took Moscow and were opposed only by some few hundreds of officer cadets and their instructors. Even then the battle was fierce and losses high. However, in the city alone, at that time, lived over 30,000 military officers (both active and retired), all with their own issued weapons and ammunition, plus tens of thousands of other citizens who were armed. The Soviets promised to leave them all alone if they did not intervene. They did not and for that were asked afterwards to come register themselves and their weapons: where they were promptly shot.

Of course being savages, murderers and liars does not mean being stupid and the Reds learned from their Civil War experience. One of the first things they did was to disarm the population. From that point, mass repression, mass arrests, mass deportations, mass murder, mass starvation were all a safe game for the powers that were. The worst they had to fear was a pitchfork in the guts or a knife in the back or the occasional hunting rifle. Not much for soldiers.




Nosathro -> RE: Why was the 2nd Amendment written and added to the Constitution. (1/4/2013 10:03:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

The military, in Jefferson's time, was to run two years before needing congressional approval again. The military also did not provide arms.

Do you see the problem with pulling up the past to excuse the present?

In fact the congress must reauthorize and they do so without public comment and debate...the standing army, every two years.

At such time that they fail to do so (of course they never have) the standing army of today and anytime since some say, without declaration of war...would be unconstitutional.

Given that the US keeps and maintains a standing army, I want to know folks just how long do you think the 'people' with their right to arm themselves could hold off the US military ?

The 2nd amendment didn't hold off any police or military from going door to door during Katrina and confiscating everybody's weapons. Look it up.

Given the above, this discussion has been rendered purposeless. The militarization of the US is a foregone conclusion...a done deal.


You are referring to Jefference time concerning a stand army. In Jefferson time standing army was allowed by the Powers of Congress, and could only pay the army for two years.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/When_did_United_States_establish_a_standing_army

The current army was established in 1947 under the National Security Act




Yachtie -> RE: Why was the 2nd Amendment written and added to the Constitution. (1/4/2013 10:05:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro
And when are all the gun owners going to stop believeing that owning guns will end crime. Currently we have in the public domain a firearm for just about every man woman and child....crime still happens. We have some 2.3 million people behind bars.



That's laughable as an argument. Most victims don't either own a gun or even carry. Guns are used over 1 million times a year preventing crime. Rarely are they ever discharged. You never hear about any of this in the news.



I don't find the death of some 30, 000 people per year by firearms laughable...but I guess some do.




It's this type of wanton comprehensively dishonest crap spewed out that pisses me off. Typical progressive shit argumentation.




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