Does a slave have this right in your opinion? (Full Version)

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alildifferent -> Does a slave have this right in your opinion? (1/4/2013 8:14:51 PM)

I personally believe that a slave has one right. That right being to choose whom they want to serve for a specified period of time. Other rights are forfeited once slavery begins. A slave can state what they want prior to ownership. It's up to the owner to decide if it's followed though. Would you agree or disagree?



Missokyst -> RE: Does a slave have this right in your opinion? (1/4/2013 8:17:14 PM)

Isnt that pretty much determined by the people involved?



JeffBC -> RE: Does a slave have this right in your opinion? (1/4/2013 8:19:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: alildifferent
I personally believe that a slave has one right. That right being to choose whom they want to serve for a specified period of time. Other rights are forfeited once slavery begins. A slave can state what they want prior to ownership. It's up to the owner to decide if it's followed though. Would you agree or disagree?

"Rights".... where do these "rights" come from that you're talking about? Presumably, at some point the slave had a whole bunch of other rights. How did they slave lose most of them but apparently not those two? Wny not those two?

All in all this is the whole "by agreement" model of D/s that I don't have much interest in. But since it IS by agreement then the obvious answer is, "Whatever the master and slave agree to."

Carol has a ton of rights that are vested in her by virtue of being a US Citizen. She has more rights that she gets by virtue of being a permanent resident of Canada. I don't have the authority to abridge any of those rights. She didn't get any additional rights from me. Had she, I suppose I might choose to take them back.



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Does a slave have this right in your opinion? (1/4/2013 8:26:27 PM)

~FR~

If they so choose, in a power exchange relationship, the one denoted as a slave can allow themselves to be treated as if they do not have any rights, or suppression of their will can happen so that they do not invoke their rights. There are legal rights and natural rights, that are not removed from someone unless they forfeit them or the authorities that granted the rights revoke them.

I believe too many confuse having rights with using the self determination to invoke them. The latter can be suspended or suppressed in various forms.



LadyPact -> RE: Does a slave have this right in your opinion? (1/4/2013 8:27:41 PM)

I would disagree based on My current dynamic. Go ahead and ask Mine if he has "the right being to choose whom they want to serve for a specified period of time". If I tell him that he WILL serve somebody, that means he will. Whether he wants to or not is not the deciding factor.




TemptingNviceSub -> RE: Does a slave have this right in your opinion? (1/4/2013 8:28:33 PM)

Disagree--It will always come down to the agreement within the relationship.Definition of what slavery entails.What slavery is within the dynamic.I often have difficulty wrapping my head around slavery because it can be all encompassing, or not..:0)--Tempting



DesFIP -> RE: Does a slave have this right in your opinion? (1/4/2013 8:28:48 PM)

I have whatever rights the two of us agreed I should have.

I don't get the feeling from the way you worded this that you have much experience in real life d/s. If I'm correct, then I suggest you don't set things in stone until you try them. Because reality is very different from fantasy.



NuevaVida -> RE: Does a slave have this right in your opinion? (1/4/2013 8:42:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: alildifferent

I personally believe that a slave has one right. That right being to choose whom they want to serve for a specified period of time. Other rights are forfeited once slavery begins. A slave can state what they want prior to ownership. It's up to the owner to decide if it's followed though. Would you agree or disagree?

I disagree. I have my legal rights as a US citizen, that, as has already been stated here, can not be removed by another US Resident.

Also as others have said, none of us can determine what someone else's slave gets to do or say or not. It's up to that relationship.

That said, he and I have never had a conversation about rights; there hasn't been a need. I do what he tells me to, that's basically it.



OsideGirl -> RE: Does a slave have this right in your opinion? (1/4/2013 8:46:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
There are legal rights and natural rights, that are not removed from someone unless they forfeit them or the authorities that granted the rights revoke them.


^^^ This. Everything else is a mutual agreement.



SeekingTrinity -> RE: Does a slave have this right in your opinion? (1/4/2013 9:01:06 PM)

~FRing it~

Disagree too. Each dynamic is unique unto itself. What works for one wont always work for another. But I do more of a D/s dynamic than a M/s dynamic, so what I say works for me is totally going to be different for someone else.



ARIES83 -> RE: Does a slave have this right in your opinion? (1/4/2013 9:04:43 PM)

You have whatever rights the country you live in
recognises you as having, beyond that theres
only your will and your ability to make it real.

The first has been handed to you by default as a
result of other peoples struggles and is enforced
by other people on your behalf, depending on
where you live and who you are congratulations
or condolences... Which ever feels more
appropriate.

The second is all you, you write the rules, you bust
the heads, born from your own struggles for your
own benifit. from beginning to end.

Know your Rights.
-Aries



BambiBoi -> RE: Does a slave have this right in your opinion? (1/5/2013 12:50:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I would disagree based on My current dynamic. Go ahead and ask Mine if he has "the right being to choose whom they want to serve for a specified period of time". If I tell him that he WILL serve somebody, that means he will. Whether he wants to or not is not the deciding factor.




This explanation is the perfect segue for my thoughts. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Lady Pact is using "rights" within the confines of the relationship. She is not discussing legal "rights" that her slave can exercise, though it may mean breaking the relationship. In that regard, every slave has every right that every master has. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

So hypothetically Lady Pact has a slave. She decides that she wants him to quarter a solider during peacetime. (Here quarter means give him or her a place to stay, not cut the soldier into bits). Lady Pact's slave does not have a right to say "Mistress, no thank you" within the design of their relationship. However, the slave could say "I'm sorry, but I'm exercising my Third Amendment Right as an American and refuse to quarter a soldier in times of peace." Lady Pact cannot legally infringe upon that right, but she in turn may decide to end the relationship.

Obviously the couple can negotiate the roles within the relationship.

The question was:

quote:

ORIGINAL: alildifferent

I personally believe that a slave has one right. That right being to choose whom they want to serve for a specified period of time. Other rights are forfeited once slavery begins. A slave can state what they want prior to ownership. It's up to the owner to decide if it's followed though. Would you agree or disagree?


My answer is simple. The slave has the right, but it comes at a cost.



HarryVanWinkle -> RE: Does a slave have this right in your opinion? (1/5/2013 8:51:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: alildifferent

I personally believe that a slave has one right. That right being to choose whom they want to serve for a specified period of time. Other rights are forfeited once slavery begins. A slave can state what they want prior to ownership. It's up to the owner to decide if it's followed though. Would you agree or disagree?


I disagree. In countries with a tradition of English Common Law, you cannot forfeit your legal rights. You can waive them, choose not to exercise them, but you cannot totally give them up.

This means that while you may have consented to act as if you are somebody's slave, you can, in fact, revoke that consent at any time. And, if your master chooses to ignore your revocation of consent, he commits a felony.



searching4mysir -> RE: Does a slave have this right in your opinion? (1/5/2013 8:54:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I would disagree based on My current dynamic. Go ahead and ask Mine if he has "the right being to choose whom they want to serve for a specified period of time". If I tell him that he WILL serve somebody, that means he will. Whether he wants to or not is not the deciding factor.





I think he meant that his only choice was whether or not to serve you (and in choosing to do so, serve whoever you tell him to).



SacredDepravity -> RE: Does a slave have this right in your opinion? (1/5/2013 10:42:57 AM)

~FR~

There is external reality and internal reality. The external reality is that I have basic rights as a citizen of my country and as a human as determined under the Geneva Convention as my country claims to follow its tenants. The external reality is that whether a written, verbal, or unspoken social contract results in me forfeiting portions of those rights (to whatever degree) there is absolutely not allow forfeiture demands above and beyond that level and the contract only applies to the parties who make the contract unless that contract extends its application to other parties. Intentional misuse of the social contract would represent breach and elicit sanctions such as terminating said contract or involving law enforcement and/or the courts.

Internal reality is a much stickier beast. I can come to view myself as a person with few to no rights. I can view my situation as one in which, though I may have those rights, I choose to or am not able to exercise them. I can also come to view my social contracts to be broader in scope that the specifics laid out. I can come to view a social contract to be in place that has not formally been established. Because there is no official, legal slavery permitted anymore, when we say M/s, while we can have it function according to external reality, we actually dealing with internal reality. Creating this reality between the submissive's ears is what occurs within the relationship. Deepening this reality means that the boundaries and line items of the contract as such are constantly changing and moving in an outward manner (provided it is in a state of growth). Because the reality is internal, the usual external sanctions are harder (though not impossible) to apply. Typically there leaves one and only one sanction for overreaching the boundaries. That would be to leave. Anything else does not terminate the situation because it leave the internal reality untouched. The internal reality will morph and change over time, but it is only as real as the parties have chosen to make it.

I want an internal reality where the external reality rights fall over time and I am left with a sense that I must... Choosing who I do this with may be a right I have, though some people can simply be irresistible perhaps, and choosing to leave are really the only rights I want. That I want. In summary, I would think a slave, if any right exists at all within that internal reality, would certainly be able to determine that time is up for whatever reason there may be.

SD



littlewonder -> RE: Does a slave have this right in your opinion? (1/5/2013 10:46:54 AM)

Master allows me to have my own opinion. He doesn't always agree with it but he allows me to have it. However, he has the right to not allow that if that is his choice. Thankfully he likes to debate and discuss things with me and it would kinda cut those short if all I ever said was "I agree" lol.

If you're talking about choice to serve....I am a slave, not his sub so I had the choice to serve or not serve. Once I entered a relationship with him, that was my last choice unless he allows me to have a choice in something.

Now every relationship is different. If someone wants to have their own choices then that's their right if that's what they so choose. It's just important to find a person who wants the same thing as yourself
.



JeffBC -> RE: Does a slave have this right in your opinion? (1/5/2013 12:52:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BambiBoi
This explanation is the perfect segue for my thoughts. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Lady Pact is using "rights" within the confines of the relationship.

I believe you're correct... but I'd never use the word "rights" to describe such things. My concern with that word is nobody ever stops to examine it. Everyone just assumes they have whatever "rights" they want (in all contexts of life, not simply this one). In reality, rights come from somewhere. Alildifferent's post is an excellent example of why I shun the word "rights".

I could think of the terms & conditions of Carol's slavery as an adjustment of her "rights" but I'd rather not. I think of it as the terms & conditions of her slavery... one of which is to no longer see herself as having any of the rights provided by larger society. This is where things get wonky on the inside. That condition is only true as long as she holds the proper self-image. It's dependent on the health of the dynamic (and relationship) between us.



theRose4U -> RE: Does a slave have this right in your opinion? (1/5/2013 1:44:17 PM)

FR
I'm going with the only across the board everybody SLAVE choice they retain is stay or go! After that its all a matter of degree & negotiation...timelines be damned



needlesandpins -> RE: Does a slave have this right in your opinion? (1/5/2013 1:52:34 PM)

you list yourself as a submissive. i'm not sure why it matters to you what other people think about slave rights. it's up to you to state what you are willing to give to a person. after that they can agree to it or not. if they think differently to you what are you going to do? show them a thread of stranger's opinions in the hope it will change their mind?

every relationship is different. and i use the term relationship loosely to include every type. you make your own mind up what it is that you want, then find someone that can give it to you. have your own opinions on how you think things should be, and know that virtually everyone else's will differ in some way.

i see people in D/s relationships in here disagreeing all the time on how it's done. there is no one true way.

needles



seekingreality -> RE: Does a slave have this right in your opinion? (1/5/2013 2:20:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: alildifferent

I personally believe that a slave has one right. That right being to choose whom they want to serve for a specified period of time. Other rights are forfeited once slavery begins. A slave can state what they want prior to ownership. It's up to the owner to decide if it's followed though. Would you agree or disagree?


As others have said, the people involved have to establish the rules between themselves. Also, I don't know why you say "a specified period of time." There is no reason the relationship can't be ongoing. Any the rules can always change. It's not actual "slavery," and if the slave decides it's not working he or she is free to leave at any time.



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