RE: A Christian and an atheist walk into a bar... (Full Version)

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dcnovice -> RE: A Christian and an atheist walk into a bar... (1/11/2013 5:16:22 PM)

quote:

Torcaso is the well known case, there have been some local officials who have tried to require swearing an oath to or before a god as recently as the late 90s (Silverman).
Note the failed tactic of claiming 'it isn't about religion'...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silverman_v._Campbell

Thanks for the info; much appreciated! I'm glad to see justice was done in the end, though sorry that plaintiffs had to go through hell to get it.




fucktoyprincess -> RE: A Christian and an atheist walk into a bar... (1/11/2013 5:31:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

I don't understand your post.


On that, we can agree. [:)]


So, you don't understand your own post. How comforting. [&:]




fucktoyprincess -> RE: A Christian and an atheist walk into a bar... (1/11/2013 5:38:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
At least in my corner of Christendom, y'all didn't loom that large.


Which is why you spend so much time writing out your posts on this thread. Nice try. [&:]




jlf1961 -> RE: A Christian and an atheist walk into a bar... (1/11/2013 5:53:23 PM)

Are we talking about a died in the wool, bible thumping, fanatic christian, or a sunday and holiday christian?

And is the atheist orthodox, reformed or new age?

I mean it does make a difference.




breagha -> RE: A Christian and an atheist walk into a bar... (1/11/2013 5:56:32 PM)

just finished reading all four pages... the part about taking oaths to the christian god to enter office kind of makes me think of the Pledge of Allegiance ( one nation under god indivisible with liberty and justice for all )

i've taken a lot of flack since my daughter entered the school system because i don't believe she should have to say "the Pledge". not only because of that one line... but i don't believe a child should have to pledge allegiance to anyone until they are able to fully understand the words they are monotonously repeating daily.




Aylee -> RE: A Christian and an atheist walk into a bar... (1/11/2013 6:03:12 PM)

Article VI, paragraph 3, and states that:

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.




dcnovice -> RE: A Christian and an atheist walk into a bar... (1/11/2013 6:10:54 PM)

quote:

Aside from the steady stream of death threats, copious separation of church and state violations and occasional acts of violence,

Sadly, I doubt there's any minority group that hasn't experienced, particularly after starting to assert itself, death threats, violence, and sometimes death itself.

It's hard to comment on the church-state violations without knowing anything about them.


quote:

...a new study out this month finds that Americans are not fond of atheists and trust them less than they do other groups.


I'm sure that sucks, but seems a stretch to equate dislike and distrust with "trampling."


Two things from the ABC piece particularly struck me:

"Our findings seem to rest on a view of atheists as self-interested individuals who are not concerned with the common good."

One factor that might be at work here is the diffuse nature of atheism. One seldom encounters atheists working in concert for a cause, though many surely do great things singly and silently. In Anytown, U.S.A., you might know that the kids across the street attend the great nursery school at the Congregational Church, that the old lady down the block gets hot meals from Catholic Charities, and that the Episcopalians who run the best rummage sale in four counties quietly mark down prices for customers on fixed incomes.* But you won't see atheists at work. The one time they'll come into focus, sadly, is in December when the inevitable fights arise over whether postal clerks can display the manger mosaic that their 1940s predecessors carefully pieced together out of cancelled stamps** or whether the creche that stood at the train station all your childhood has to find a new home.*** There may be good, church-state reasons for banning the manger and moving the creche, but neither is likely to come across as a contribution to the public good.

* We do this at my parish in D.C.
** This was an annual debate at my brother's town in Connecticut.
*** This happened in my home town on Long Island.



The results of this study suggest a couple of partial remedies. One is a movie analogy of "Brokeback Mountain," which dealt with manly cowboys coming to grips with their homosexuality.

At the risk of repeating myself, stories have power--especially when they help folks see alien "others" as people like themselves.




dcnovice -> RE: A Christian and an atheist walk into a bar... (1/11/2013 6:13:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

I don't understand your post.


On that, we can agree. [:)]


So, you don't understand your own post. How comforting. [&:]


LOL! No, I was agreeing with what you'd said--i.e., that you didn't understand it.




GotSteel -> RE: A Christian and an atheist walk into a bar... (1/11/2013 6:18:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
And is the atheist orthodox, reformed or new age?


Which positions would those be?




dcnovice -> RE: A Christian and an atheist walk into a bar... (1/11/2013 6:37:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
At least in my corner of Christendom, y'all didn't loom that large.


Which is why you spend so much time writing out your posts on this thread. Nice try. [&:]


I generally try not to get personal, but I can't help noticing the "just plain sad" (to use your words) decline you've manifested in this thread. Back in Post 48, you were CM's own Earth Mother, "inclusionary and accepting of a very wide range of people" and even, with no apparent irony, offering your own life as a model for others.

Just a page later, alas, you've sunk to the level of yet another cyber shrew--lashing out at me for my unacceptable opinions; imagining that you know and can thus malign the motives of someone you've never met; and hoping that sarcasm, for two posts running now, will distract readers from your lack of anything substantive (such as an answer to the thoughtul nuances I raised in Post 12) to add to the discussion.

How did you put it? Ah yes: "Very, very sad."

And then the poor atheists wonder why nobody likes them. [8|]




dcnovice -> RE: A Christian and an atheist walk into a bar... (1/11/2013 6:39:04 PM)

quote:

i've taken a lot of flack since my daughter entered the school system because i don't believe she should have to say "the Pledge". not only because of that one line... but i don't believe a child should have to pledge allegiance to anyone until they are able to fully understand the words they are monotonously repeating daily.

A poster after my own heart! The Pledge is one of my pet peeves too, but that's another thread.




breagha -> RE: A Christian and an atheist walk into a bar... (1/11/2013 6:41:10 PM)

glad to know i'm not the only one!




GotSteel -> RE: A Christian and an atheist walk into a bar... (1/11/2013 6:48:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
Will and Grace (and various other portrayals, of course) helped turn gay folks from shadowy, hated others into familiar, familial faces. Something along those lines may prove fruitful for atheists, though (I realize) less immediately satisfying that online combat.


Atheists of course have done quite a bit of looking through the data on past civil rights movements, as I understand it both tactics play an important role. That it took quite a bit of vocal activism before being openly gay was considered moderate enough to make it on TV. That when it comes to civil right we don't get to Will and Grace without "We're here we're queer get used to it!"




dcnovice -> RE: A Christian and an atheist walk into a bar... (1/11/2013 6:59:11 PM)

quote:

That it took quite a bit of vocal activism before being openly gay was considered moderate enough to make it on TV. That when it comes to civil right we don't get to Will and Grace without "We're here we're queer get used to it!"

Good point, Steel. I may not have been thinking far enough back.




jlf1961 -> RE: A Christian and an atheist walk into a bar... (1/12/2013 4:30:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

i've taken a lot of flack since my daughter entered the school system because i don't believe she should have to say "the Pledge". not only because of that one line... but i don't believe a child should have to pledge allegiance to anyone until they are able to fully understand the words they are monotonously repeating daily.

A poster after my own heart! The Pledge is one of my pet peeves too, but that's another thread.



According to some denominations, the age of accountability is 8, others it is ten. Basically by that age, they are accountable for the sins they commit and the actions they take in life.

From a history perspective, no male could take an oath of allegiance prior to age 14, the age when they usually began training as a soldier, if that is the social class they belonged to.

IN the modern world, you cant take the oath of a soldier in a regular army of any country that I know of prior to 16 in some, 18 in most.

So it boils down to my problem with the pledge of allegiance as it means that a person taking it is committing themselves to a life long thing. And outside of a feudal society, it is meaningless.

I know a lot of american adults who dont remember the pledge, and really dont care one way or the other about it.

I mean it is not like a kid is taking the pledge to be a citizen, right?




vincentML -> RE: A Christian and an atheist walk into a bar... (1/12/2013 8:34:19 AM)

quote:

The results of this study suggest a couple of partial remedies. One is a movie analogy of "Brokeback Mountain," which dealt with manly cowboys coming to grips with their homosexuality.

At the risk of repeating myself, stories have power--especially when they help folks see alien "others" as people like themselves.

The only one I can think of off-hand is Inherit The Wind. Unfortunately, that came across as an anti-Fundamentalist story, which it is, and I don't suppose Brokeback Mountain was anti-heterosexual. The problem is there is nothing two atheists can do in a tent or on a horse in the mountains to distinguish themselves, that two christians can't do. So, I would be at a loss to develop a story line showing "friendly" atheists. Oh, there is a sequence in Woody Allen's Radio Days where a marxist atheist couple is playing their radio loudly outside the window of a Jewish family observing Yom Kippur. The ever hungry but fasting brother-in-law goes out to complain and returns converted to marxist atheism. A delightfully funny scene in a delightful movie. . . . lol! But in all seriousness, DC, what story line could you imagine that could identify atheists without making fundamentalists cringe? I can't imagine that atheism will ever be seen as friendly by bible fundamentalists because on the face of it, it is the antithesis, and invites conflict. Your thoughts?

ETA . . . got to thinking on this. I suppose there could be an Archie Bunker scenario where the Jeffersons moved next door. The fundamentalist and the atheists are bigoted toward each other but come to help and tolerate each other through a series of encounters . . . . but, awwww jeez, Edith, who would believe that? [:D]




dcnovice -> RE: A Christian and an atheist walk into a bar... (1/12/2013 5:46:08 PM)

quote:

But in all seriousness, DC, what story line could you imagine that could identify atheists without making fundamentalists cringe? I can't imagine that atheism will ever be seen as friendly by bible fundamentalists because on the face of it, it is the antithesis, and invites conflict. Your thoughts?

Though storytelling plays a key role in my work lives--magazine editor, museum guide--I'm more of a nonfiction guy. So conjuring stories from scratch isn't my forte. But give me some time for my slow-simmering brain to ponder this, and I'll post any half-baked ideas that emerge.

Fundamentalists may not be the best target audience; their minds on the subject may already be made up. But there are also a lot of nonfundamentalists who'd benefit from stories that help them see atheists in a more human light. And of course there are always kids wrestling with their own questions about life, the universe, and everything who could use role models, even fictional ones, for choosing paths other than theism.

I'm far from a PR expert, but one heretical suggestion I might make if I were would be to consider some "rebranding." Atheism is essentially a negative term, defining folks by what they aren't rather than what they are. That makes it harder, I think, to find points of connection. That said, I'm not brimming with alternatives. I like Humanist but realize it has other uses as well. Earthist might sound too environmental.




dcnovice -> RE: A Christian and an atheist walk into a bar... (1/12/2013 6:33:52 PM)

quote:

But in all seriousness, DC, what story line could you imagine that could identify atheists without making fundamentalists cringe? I can't imagine that atheism will ever be seen as friendly by bible fundamentalists because on the face of it, it is the antithesis, and invites conflict. Your thoughts?


As promised, these are half-baked. They may skew a bit young and reflect my weakness for sentimental stories. But perhaps they'll offer some ideas that an actual artist could run with.

The Atheist in the Foxhole
GI argues with fellow soldiers about his lack of belief versus their creeds. Rifts begin to heal when he saves his leading antagonist from death.

Title TBD
A creative teacher finds a way to redefine/refocus the traditional tree to reflect more than Christian traditions. I confess I’m not sure exactly how!

Humanist Healer
A patient bummed about being in the hospital on Christmas Day finds comfort from an unexpected source—the humanist nurse who volunteered to work so that so that Christian colleagues could be off to celebrate.

One Nation Indivisible
Students harass a peer who refuses to say “under God” in the Pledge until a classroom project reveals that the phrase was only added long after the pledge was written. Other students begin joining their classmate in saying "one nation indivisible"--the phrasing that brought the nation through two world wars and the Great Depression.

Mr. Jefferson’s Bible
The story of the third President’s handmade Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth, his compilation of parables and teachings—minus references to the supernatural.

Free Thoughts, Free Lives
Profiles of people who fought for religious freedom—including the right not to believe in anything.

Underground Atheist
Conductors on the Underground Railroad wonder whether to trust a nonbeliever with their vital, dangerous work. They do, a bit reluctantly, and the new recruit proves as brave and dedicated and resourceful as they are.

* * *


ETA: I forgot one possibility that doesn't quite fit into the "nugget" formula above. West Wing viewers may recall the "Two Cathedrals" episode in which President Bartlet, at the end of his secretary's funeral, asks to be alone in the National Cathedral and curses God, first in English, then in Latin.

At some point after that, I was at the cathedral (I forget why) and got to chatting with a member of the staff. He mentioned that, after the show had aired, the cathedral received a call from someone wanting to come and "renounce his faith." Whoever took the call suggested that the guy call his parish church. I can understand brushing off a potential crank, but I do wonder what would have happened if the receptionist had instead replied, "Well, why don't you come in, and we'll talk about it?" That could, I think, have the makings of an interesting story or play.




vincentML -> RE: A Christian and an atheist walk into a bar... (1/13/2013 5:20:31 AM)

quote:

As promised, these are half-baked. They may skew a bit young and reflect my weakness for sentimental stories. But perhaps they'll offer some ideas that an actual artist could run with.

Many kudos for some thoughtful scenarios, DC. I would particularly favor the Humanist Healer story.

quote:

I'm far from a PR expert, but one heretical suggestion I might make if I were would be to consider some "rebranding." Atheism is essentially a negative term, defining folks by what they aren't rather than what they are. That makes it harder, I think, to find points of connection. That said, I'm not brimming with alternatives. I like Humanist but realize it has other uses as well. Earthist might sound too environmental.

The New Atheists or the Militant Atheists of the 21st C are an outspoken group of about five authors who have debated and antagonized the Christian fundamentalists. Their work has been a backlash against the effort lead by the Discovery Institute to install Intelligent Design along side Darwinism in high school biology curricula, suggesting that there are doubts among Evolutionists about Darwin's theory. The doubting Evolutionists are hard to come by.

Doubters of belief in the supernatural are found throughout history.

The term 'atheist' was first used in the 18th C.

During the latter part of the 19th C a 'Free Thought' movement gained some notoriety in America. Thought free of religious dogma and belief in the supernatural. I favor free thinker myself and I think there are some such organizations to be found today.

In 2003 there arose the Brights Movement which is similar to the Freethought concept and whose goal is the following according to Wiki:

1.Promote public understanding and acknowledgment of the naturalistic worldview, which is free of supernatural and mystical elements.
2.Gain public recognition that persons who hold such a worldview can bring principled actions to bear on matters of civic importance.
3.Educate society toward accepting the full and equitable civic participation of all such people.

A major criticism of the term 'Brights' is that it suggests an air of mental superiority. Their tag line is "Illuminating and Elevating the Naturalistic Worldview". I agree with the tag line but I find their name 'godawful.' [:D]

The Wiki article on Atheism quotes Sam Harris [one of the New Atheists] in part:

"In fact, "atheism" is a term that should not even exist. No one ever needs to identify himself as a "non-astrologer" or a "non-alchemist." We do not have words for people who doubt that Elvis is still alive or that aliens have traversed the galaxy only to molest ranchers and their cattle. Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make in the presence of unjustified religious beliefs."

I don't much agree with Harris, although, admittedly, I haven't read his book Letter to a Christian Nation from which the quote arises. He may offer solid justification but I support self-identification. As you suggested, however, it leaves us in a bit of a quandry.

There are a number of choices: "atheist, antitheist, humanist (specifically secular humanist), freethinker, Objectivist, irreligionist, naturalist, materialist or physicalist, agnostic, ignostic, skeptic, apatheist, or even naturalistic pantheist, panendeist" They all seem to be subject to some negative connotation because they reject Belief in the Supernatural, which is the majority view.

Richard Dawkins [dean of the New Atheists] thinks we need a catchy term similar to 'gay' which is "succinct, positive, uplifting," and liberating.

Let me know if you think of one, DC, tho I doubt the 'community' of nonbelievers will ever agree because they value their liberated thought too dearly to give a damn about labels.

Many regards . . . . [:)]















jlf1961 -> RE: A Christian and an atheist walk into a bar... (1/13/2013 10:58:15 AM)

Actually does it really matter what someone does or does not believe.

There is the old saying, "there are no atheists in fox holes."

Sooner or later you have to believe in something.




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