RE: A Christian and an atheist walk into a bar... (Full Version)

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Powergamz1 -> RE: A Christian and an atheist walk into a bar... (1/13/2013 11:55:32 AM)

There is also that old saying "The sun revolves around the Earth"... from the same source.



quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Actually does it really matter what someone does or does not believe.

There is the old saying, "there are no atheists in fox holes."

Sooner or later you have to believe in something.




ThatDaveGuy69 -> RE: A Christian and an atheist walk into a bar... (1/13/2013 1:03:08 PM)

Some places where we Atheists feel a bit oppressed:

Laws based on religion or religious views:
Abortion rights restrictions - MY god says it's wrong - so that applies to EVERYONE!
Marriage equality restrictions - see above
Tax-payer funding of "faith-based initiatives" - do I really need to explain this?
Creationism in public schools - we have enough problems with education in this country without teaching our kids this sort of BS
Tax-payer funding of religious displays - if the anti-abortion types can whine "I don't want MY tax dollars paying for abortions" then I certainly don't want MY tax dollars paying for a nativity scene (or a useless war, but that's a different discussion)

As for one of the lists posted:
A few examples from over the years:

-- Religious people are stupid/weak/delusional (This is sometimes phrased more gently as "Some people [read: the poor dears] need religion.")
Stupid: Examine, for a moment, your thoughts/beliefs about your god. All powerful? Merciful? Everywhere at all times? Then please explain Newtown, CT. Why didn't your god prevent that from happening?
Weak: Phrases like "god showed me the way" and "I was lost without god". Really? So your god literally said to you: Do this, don't do that, make a left at the next light, etc... Are you not capable of making such decisions for yourself?
Delusional: See "Stupid" As an adult, do you really believe in an invisible man who knows all, sees all, can do anything anywhere and at any time? I'd like to introduce you to my friends: Santa Clause and Superman.

-- Religion has been a largely, even totally, negative force in human history and culture.
Let's see... The Crusades is a personal favorite; Jihad is another; The Inquisition; The Salem Witch Trials; The Conquistadors genocide in South America, Slavery in America, The genocide of the Native American population; The pedophile Priest scandal that goes all the way to the Pope; the Vatican's association with the Nazis during WW II and their looking the other way over the Halocaust; the denial of science and the imprisonment of scientists

-- Religion and science are completely incompatible.
Does the sun still orbit around the Earth and does the moon still give off its own light? Evolution is scientific fact, Creationism is a fairy tale.

-- Religious people are moral only because they fear hell.
Accept Jesus as your personal or you'll burn in hell. Pretty much says it all right there.

-- Religious people burn to tell others how to live.
Billy Graham, Tim Wildmon, Orel Roberts, Fred Phelps, Mike Huckabee, etc, etc, etc... I get a knock on my door every few weeks from the Jehovah's Witnesses. At least they are polite.

-- Religions prey on children.
Indoctrination into any culture, mindset, belief is most effective on the young. And then there's the whole pedophile priest thing... And the ritualistic genital mutilation of both boys and girls. And that whole thing in Ireland with the nuns.

-- Religious texts must be taken literally.
Only when it suits the person: Homosexuality is a sin but working on Sunday is OK. It's always nice to pick and choose what parts of the rule book you wish to play by.

-- Any member of a religion must agree entirely with every page of its scriptures and every syllable in its creeds.
Well, the leaders would like it that way but no 2 people will ever agree on everything.

-- And my personal favorite: Marxism is "really" a religion (a view that might have startled Marx), so the crimes of Stalin, Mao et al. don't really reflect atheism.
Funny, I've never heard this one in all my years on non-belief. More correctly, these mass murderers did not kill because they did not believe in a god. They killed to obtain and maintain their power. No one has ever said "I don't believe no god, therefore I will kill a bunch of people".

And finally: "There are no Atheists in foxholes". Aside from some very public photos of US troops stating otherwise, I put it to you that EVERYONE in a foxhole is an Atheist. Because if you truly believed that your god would protect you, you would not need the protection of a foxhole.

~Dave



dcnovice -> RE: A Christian and an atheist walk into a bar... (1/13/2013 3:31:27 PM)

quote:

Many kudos for some thoughtful scenarios, DC.

Why, thank you. [:)]

It was a fun, creative challenge. I'm too busy/lazy to flesh them out, so help yourself to anything you find useful.


quote:

I favor free thinker myself

I quite like that too. A variant that occurred to me is "Freeist."


quote:

A major criticism of the term 'Brights' is that it suggests an air of mental superiority.

Agreed. Telling everyone else you view them as "Dims" is unlikely to build much goodwill.


quote:

The Wiki article on Atheism quotes Sam Harris [one of the New Atheists] in part:

"In fact, "atheism" is a term that should not even exist. No one ever needs to identify himself as a "non-astrologer" or a "non-alchemist." We do not have words for people who doubt that Elvis is still alive or that aliens have traversed the galaxy only to molest ranchers and their cattle. Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make in the presence of unjustified religious beliefs."

Oh my, that's quite a quote. I was so intrigued, I went to the Wiki page and learned that it's from Harris's Letter to a Christian Nation. That kind of leaves me shaking my head. Why take the trouble to write to people if you're gonna tell them you view what they may see as a central fact of their lives as the equivalent of spotting Elvis or UFOs?. I haven't read Letter, so I don't know Harris's goals for it. If he was was just venting, so be it. If he thinks this is the way to build understanding for an "oppressed minority," he may be more Bright than bright.


quote:

There are a number of choices: "atheist, antitheist, humanist (specifically secular humanist), freethinker, Objectivist, irreligionist, naturalist, materialist or physicalist, agnostic, ignostic, skeptic, apatheist, or even naturalistic pantheist, panendeist" They all seem to be subject to some negative connotation because they reject Belief in the Supernatural, which is the majority view.

Richard Dawkins [dean of the New Atheists] thinks we need a catchy term similar to 'gay' which is "succinct, positive, uplifting," and liberating.

As I said above, I like "freethinker." I also thought of "First," which may take some getting used to as a noun but has nice echos of the First Amendment. I would definitely avoid the Randian overtones of "Objectivist."


quote:

I doubt the 'community' of nonbelievers will ever agree because they value their liberated thought too dearly to give a damn about labels.

Quite possibly. I think every minority wrestles with the dilemma of (a) damning the torpedoes and going full steam ahead on your own terms and (b) building bridges to the large population in order to achieve a more just place in society. Booker T. Washington and W.E.B. Du Bois come to mind. In my own little cultural corner, a Lesbian feminist friend is enraged by the Marriage Equality movement because she feels it plays into majority values she doesn't share.


quote:

Many regards . . . . [:)]

And also with you! [:)]



dcnovice -> RE: A Christian and an atheist walk into a bar... (1/13/2013 4:06:07 PM)

quote:

As for one of the lists posted:

<various points from DC and elaborations from Dave>

The fervor and fury with which you've rallied round and amplified each bullet point (save the last, which I'll get to in a minute) only underscores my sense that they serve as a sort of atheistic dogma.


quote:

- And my personal favorite: Marxism is "really" a religion (a view that might have startled Marx), so the crimes of Stalin, Mao et al. don't really reflect atheism.
Funny, I've never heard this one in all my years on non-belief.

CM posters have made that point to me more than once over the years. Ymmv, of course.



Kirata -> RE: A Christian and an atheist walk into a bar... (1/13/2013 5:00:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDaveGuy69

-- And my personal favorite: Marxism is "really" a religion... Funny, I've never heard this one

Karl Marx: Communist as Religious Eschatologist

K.



vincentML -> RE: A Christian and an atheist walk into a bar... (1/13/2013 6:10:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDaveGuy69

-- And my personal favorite: Marxism is "really" a religion... Funny, I've never heard this one

Karl Marx: Communist as Religious Eschatologist

K.

Is this the same Murray N Rothbard who gave birth to Ron Paul? [:D]



GotSteel -> RE: A Christian and an atheist walk into a bar... (1/14/2013 7:17:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Actually does it really matter what someone does or does not believe.

There is the old saying, "there are no atheists in fox holes."

Sooner or later you have to believe in something.


This is not true, it's one of those demonstrably false sayings that the faithful pass around that I was complaining about earlier. The atheist who deconverted me is member of the Special Forces.

Please refer to the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers: http://militaryatheists.org/atheists-in-foxholes/ to see that you're demonstrably wrong.



GotSteel -> RE: A Christian and an atheist walk into a bar... (1/14/2013 7:43:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
The fervor and fury with which you've rallied round and amplified each bullet point (save the last, which I'll get to in a minute) only underscores my sense that they serve as a sort of atheistic dogma.

Or that he's pretty pissed off. I've got to tell you, catching up on the thread this morning I'm seeing some red myself.

quote:

- And my personal favorite: Marxism is "really" a religion (a view that might have startled Marx), so the crimes of Stalin, Mao et al. don't really reflect atheism.
Funny, I've never heard this one in all my years on non-belief.


I agree that the famous Communist regimes were not pushing religions (at least not in the usual sense of the word) however they were strongly pushing particular ideologies which the atheists that this propaganda is getting used on commonly don't share.

It would be like me associating you with Hitler because you both don't believe in unicorns.



cordeliasub -> RE: A Christian and an atheist walk into a bar... (1/14/2013 10:56:33 AM)

Unicorns don't exist????

You have singlehandedly unraveled my entire reality........[:o]

For me, I admit that at times I cannot imagine "not believing in anything," so to speak....but I think the key from any direction is to distinguish between "I cannot imagine someone else thinking X" and "anyone who thinks X is a complete idiot who is so obviously inferior to me."

I can handle someone saying, "I don;t understand how you can believe in something you have never seen/I don't understand how you can believe things written in an old book that is full of contradictions." What pisses me off is when someone who has never even spoken with me decides I am barely capable of breathing with my mouth closed because they do not understand what I believe. One of those is honest and straightforward disagreement, the other is egotistic arrogance run amok....which is highly unattractive.



jlf1961 -> RE: A Christian and an atheist walk into a bar... (1/14/2013 12:13:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
The fervor and fury with which you've rallied round and amplified each bullet point (save the last, which I'll get to in a minute) only underscores my sense that they serve as a sort of atheistic dogma.

Or that he's pretty pissed off. I've got to tell you, catching up on the thread this morning I'm seeing some red myself.

quote:

- And my personal favorite: Marxism is "really" a religion (a view that might have startled Marx), so the crimes of Stalin, Mao et al. don't really reflect atheism.
Funny, I've never heard this one in all my years on non-belief.


I agree that the famous Communist regimes were not pushing religions (at least not in the usual sense of the word) however they were strongly pushing particular ideologies which the atheists that this propaganda is getting used on commonly don't share.

It would be like me associating you with Hitler because you both don't believe in unicorns.



Okay then tell me why God is invoked by 99% of the people while having sex?

And I was being sarcastic.



thishereboi -> RE: A Christian and an atheist walk into a bar... (1/14/2013 12:28:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDaveGuy69

Some places where we Atheists feel a bit oppressed:

Laws based on religion or religious views:
Abortion rights restrictions - MY god says it's wrong - so that applies to EVERYONE!
Marriage equality restrictions - see above
Tax-payer funding of "faith-based initiatives" - do I really need to explain this?
Creationism in public schools - we have enough problems with education in this country without teaching our kids this sort of BS
Tax-payer funding of religious displays - if the anti-abortion types can whine "I don't want MY tax dollars paying for abortions" then I certainly don't want MY tax dollars paying for a nativity scene (or a useless war, but that's a different discussion)

As for one of the lists posted:
A few examples from over the years:

-- Religious people are stupid/weak/delusional (This is sometimes phrased more gently as "Some people [read: the poor dears] need religion.")
Stupid: Examine, for a moment, your thoughts/beliefs about your god. All powerful? Merciful? Everywhere at all times? Then please explain Newtown, CT. Why didn't your god prevent that from happening?
Weak: Phrases like "god showed me the way" and "I was lost without god". Really? So your god literally said to you: Do this, don't do that, make a left at the next light, etc... Are you not capable of making such decisions for yourself?
Delusional: See "Stupid" As an adult, do you really believe in an invisible man who knows all, sees all, can do anything anywhere and at any time? I'd like to introduce you to my friends: Santa Clause and Superman.

-- Religion has been a largely, even totally, negative force in human history and culture.
Let's see... The Crusades is a personal favorite; Jihad is another; The Inquisition; The Salem Witch Trials; The Conquistadors genocide in South America, Slavery in America, The genocide of the Native American population; The pedophile Priest scandal that goes all the way to the Pope; the Vatican's association with the Nazis during WW II and their looking the other way over the Halocaust; the denial of science and the imprisonment of scientists

-- Religion and science are completely incompatible.
Does the sun still orbit around the Earth and does the moon still give off its own light? Evolution is scientific fact, Creationism is a fairy tale.

-- Religious people are moral only because they fear hell.
Accept Jesus as your personal or you'll burn in hell. Pretty much says it all right there.

-- Religious people burn to tell others how to live.
Billy Graham, Tim Wildmon, Orel Roberts, Fred Phelps, Mike Huckabee, etc, etc, etc... I get a knock on my door every few weeks from the Jehovah's Witnesses. At least they are polite.

-- Religions prey on children.
Indoctrination into any culture, mindset, belief is most effective on the young. And then there's the whole pedophile priest thing... And the ritualistic genital mutilation of both boys and girls. And that whole thing in Ireland with the nuns.

-- Religious texts must be taken literally.
Only when it suits the person: Homosexuality is a sin but working on Sunday is OK. It's always nice to pick and choose what parts of the rule book you wish to play by.

-- Any member of a religion must agree entirely with every page of its scriptures and every syllable in its creeds.
Well, the leaders would like it that way but no 2 people will ever agree on everything.

-- And my personal favorite: Marxism is "really" a religion (a view that might have startled Marx), so the crimes of Stalin, Mao et al. don't really reflect atheism.
Funny, I've never heard this one in all my years on non-belief. More correctly, these mass murderers did not kill because they did not believe in a god. They killed to obtain and maintain their power. No one has ever said "I don't believe no god, therefore I will kill a bunch of people".

And finally: "There are no Atheists in foxholes". Aside from some very public photos of US troops stating otherwise, I put it to you that EVERYONE in a foxhole is an Atheist. Because if you truly believed that your god would protect you, you would not need the protection of a foxhole.

~Dave



Bless your heart.

Do you feel better now?




GotSteel -> RE: A Christian and an atheist walk into a bar... (1/14/2013 3:12:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cordeliasub
What pisses me off is when someone who has never even spoken with me decides I am barely capable of breathing with my mouth closed because they do not understand what I believe.


That's very understandably infuriating.



dcnovice -> RE: A Christian and an atheist walk into a bar... (1/14/2013 5:01:14 PM)

quote:

I've got to tell you, catching up on the thread this morning I'm seeing some red myself.

If something I said is making you mad, you know how to post a reply. You're also welcome to PM me.

Then again, angry victimhood has a certain satisfaction (he says from experience).


quote:

I agree that the famous Communist regimes were not pushing religions (at least not in the usual sense of the word) however they were strongly pushing particular ideologies which the atheists that this propaganda is getting used on commonly don't share.

You don't believe that religion is the opiate of the masses?! [:)]

A bit of backstory is in order here. Over the years, more than a few posters have asserted that religion is not merely false and delusional but a downright force for evil. (As, in fact, it can alas be.) Some have gone even further, fingering religion as the leading source of the world's woes. That perspective is front and center on the American Atheists page to which Kirata linked: "In the history of the world, nothing has been the catalyst of more grief, hatred, war, and crime than religion."

In the face of that mindset, it seems not unreasonable to note that regimes which were not merely unburdened by theism but made vigorous efforts to root it out have made no small contribution to the world's sorrows.


quote:

It would be like me associating you with Hitler because you both don't believe in unicorns.

Hitler? Unicorns? Can you say "specious," boys and girls? And would one of you go knock on Mr. Godwin's door?

A more apt parallel would be someone's comparing me to Benedict XV or Fred Phelps because some aspects of our beliefs overlap. And I recently did indeed have a friend--a highly educated freethinker--argue that each individual Catholic is morally "accountable" for every syllable that comes out of the Vatican.





jlf1961 -> RE: A Christian and an atheist walk into a bar... (1/14/2013 5:44:12 PM)

I hate to tell you guys this, but the sun and universe revolve around me.

-Posted by JLF1961' dog Princess, Queen of the Universe



Kirata -> RE: A Christian and an atheist walk into a bar... (1/14/2013 5:49:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

I hate to tell you guys this, but the sun and universe revolve around me.

-Posted by JLF1961' dog Princess, Queen of the Universe

So you say, but my disbelief in the existence of typing canines remains unshaken.

K.



dcnovice -> RE: A Christian and an atheist walk into a bar... (1/14/2013 5:51:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

I hate to tell you guys this, but the sun and universe revolve around me.

-Posted by JLF1961' dog Princess, Queen of the Universe

So you say, but my disbelief in the existence of typing canines remains unshaken.

K.

Besides, everyone knows that the center of the universe is feline. [:)]



GotSteel -> RE: A Christian and an atheist walk into a bar... (1/15/2013 8:43:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
quote:

I've got to tell you, catching up on the thread this morning I'm seeing some red myself.

If something I said is making you mad, you know how to post a reply. You're also welcome to PM me.

Actually I wrote that right after replying to JLF.

But do you get that you've said a few things that could potentially rub an atheist the wrong way? Especially if they're already riled up from outright bigotry like this:
quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00
The lawyer pompously said "We are aware of no such holiday for atheists, just when might that be, your honor?"

The judge said "Well it comes every year on exactly the same date-- April 1st!"

"The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.'"
Psalm 14:1, Psalm 53:1


So fucktoy misunderstands a post, maybe somewhat in a state of mind where she's inclined to take things the wrong way and gets sarcastic and you respond with name calling. Now I suppose I could conclude from the name calling that some Christians are "pugnacious" or (heck I can't be bothered to look them up. Fill in some of the smears you were using for atheists) but I think the actual reality is that it's very normal for people to respond in kind when someone is being a bit of a dick to them.

So Christians if you keep stumbling across angry atheists you should perhaps stop and ask yourselves: "Am I being a bit of a dick?"



dcnovice -> RE: A Christian and an atheist walk into a bar... (1/23/2013 5:58:46 PM)

quote:

Now I suppose I could conclude from the name calling that some Christians are "pugnacious" or (heck I can't be bothered to look them up. Fill in some of the smears you were using for atheists)

And I wouldn't be at all surprised if you did. [:)]

But, seriously: I said, truthfully, that my experience has been that some CM atheists strike me as "dogmatic" and "pugnacious." Do those really pass for "smears" in your oppressed minority? You'd need a considerably thicker skin in mine.


quote:

So Christians if you keep stumbling across angry atheists you should perhaps stop and ask yourselves: "Am I being a bit of a dick?"

Nothing's ever an atheist's fault, is it? [:)]



cordeliasub -> RE: A Christian and an atheist walk into a bar... (1/23/2013 6:43:37 PM)

I think that I can probably find evidence to support my assertion that everything is now Justin Beiber's fault. Or maybe the Jonas Brothers.......

I don't think being a jerk or being a nice person has anything to do with religion or lack thereof.



Kirata -> RE: A Christian and an atheist walk into a bar... (1/23/2013 6:58:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Nothing's ever an atheist's fault, is it? [:)]

Or if so, what precisely? Can we have examples? [:D]

K.



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