RE: Britain Ranks Most violent in Europe and "4"x worse than U.S. (Full Version)

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jlf1961 -> RE: Britain Ranks Most violent in Europe and "4"x worse than U.S. (1/16/2013 8:18:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Lets face reality.

The overly civilized British have pretty much reached the point of not being violent, except when it comes to dealing with Irish Catholics in Northern Ireland.



Grow up. Your post is utter nonsense and an attempt to derail the thread.

The thread itself is an attempt to take the heat off of gun crime threads.



Actually I was being sarcastic.

HOwever, to be honest, I cant see how the UK could come in as more violent than the US.


Apologies then, I thought your post was serious.

You make a valid point here, I am unsure how anyone can possibly think we have much more violence but less murders. Even when guns were more common the UK only had a murder rate similar to now.

So the "benefit" of gun control is, by your words minimal



Actually, it is not minimal, but you have to look at the criminal element in the UK. Most of them find it distasteful to use a gun in the commission of a crime. Personally I never understood that, but hey, I aint British.

However, gun control, as practiced in the US, meaning the first assault weapon ban and other attempts to control firearms have not had a significant impact on gun related crimes. So short of banning all guns, there is not going to be much of an impact from anything new.



Real0ne -> RE: Britain Ranks Most violent in Europe and "4"x worse than U.S. (1/16/2013 8:33:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

I dont trust YOUR sources, ever
PS agin with the bullshit correlation between comparable.Until they ALL use the same comparisons, the figures are skewed
DUH



I dont trust yours, the whole point behind that doj report was to do what you did not, which was to correlate between legal differences

I gave you the link here > DOJ

sorry it does not meet your approval



Lucylastic -> RE: Britain Ranks Most violent in Europe and "4"x worse than U.S. (1/16/2013 9:33:34 PM)

have it your way Im glad to see your suppport of the DOJ, LMAO



BamaD -> RE: Britain Ranks Most violent in Europe and "4"x worse than U.S. (1/16/2013 10:04:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Lets face reality.

The overly civilized British have pretty much reached the point of not being violent, except when it comes to dealing with Irish Catholics in Northern Ireland.



Grow up. Your post is utter nonsense and an attempt to derail the thread.

The thread itself is an attempt to take the heat off of gun crime threads.



Actually I was being sarcastic.

HOwever, to be honest, I cant see how the UK could come in as more violent than the US.


Apologies then, I thought your post was serious.

You make a valid point here, I am unsure how anyone can possibly think we have much more violence but less murders. Even when guns were more common the UK only had a murder rate similar to now.

So the "benefit" of gun control is, by your words minimal



Actually, it is not minimal, but you have to look at the criminal element in the UK. Most of them find it distasteful to use a gun in the commission of a crime. Personally I never understood that, but hey, I aint British.

However, gun control, as practiced in the US, meaning the first assault weapon ban and other attempts to control firearms have not had a significant impact on gun related crimes. So short of banning all guns, there is not going to be much of an impact from anything new.

I was just pointing out what he said, the real point is that if we have the same laws the US will have more murders than the UK by a substantial difference.

The main cause of our crime spike in the 70s and our consistent crime drops since then is demographics.
The baby boomers hit the most violence prone ages in the late 60s, early 70s causing the spike.
As we age and get out of that age range crime has been going down caused by neither restrictve laws like DC and Chigaco or by the proliferation of right to carry states.



meatcleaver -> RE: Britain Ranks Most violent in Europe and "4"x worse than U.S. (1/16/2013 10:04:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

well I guess you cant believe english news sources.



Having lived in the Netherlands and worked in probation there, I can't believe those Dutch figures.

Hmm Maybe I can. I had a neighbour who was burgled and the police didn't even bother to turn up when she phoned, she had to go down to the police station to fill a form in for insurance purposes but because the insurance said they wouldn't pay out, she didn't bother. The Dutch police don't do much unless its public order and that means more someone getting a thumping.

I do understand why Dutch police are lazy. It's very difficult to get a conviction in Holland an the punishments are so insubstantial, its hardly worth bothering.



Politesub53 -> RE: Britain Ranks Most violent in Europe and "4"x worse than U.S. (1/17/2013 3:15:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

So the "benefit" of gun control is, by your words minimal



This comment seems a bit stupid to me. How can less dead people ever be considered " A minimal benefit " ?

I wont hold my breath waiting for a plausible reply.



Politesub53 -> RE: Britain Ranks Most violent in Europe and "4"x worse than U.S. (1/17/2013 3:23:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

I dont trust YOUR sources, ever
PS agin with the bullshit correlation between comparable.Until they ALL use the same comparisons, the figures are skewed
DUH


Snow White, read his actual link. Dopey probably hasnt even realised it doesnt even address violent cride but is just on about out of date burglary stats.

Yours, Happy. [8D]



Politesub53 -> RE: Britain Ranks Most violent in Europe and "4"x worse than U.S. (1/17/2013 3:31:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53



Apologies then, I thought your post was serious.

You make a valid point here, I am unsure how anyone can possibly think we have much more violence but less murders. Even when guns were more common the UK only had a murder rate similar to now.


Sarcasm does not translate as well in the printed medium.

However, having long time friends, even a few very distant relatives on both sides of the issues in Northern Ireland, the violence in that region has gone on for so long that I honestly doubt that anyone knows what the hell they are fighting for.

My personal feeling is that when the rest of Ireland was given independence, Northern Ireland should have been part of the package, but that comes from having catholic relatives in Northern Ireland that identify themselves as Irish first.

In truth the problems of the Emerald Isle is a few hundred years old, and will not be solved in any fashion that even remotely resembles logic, but again that is my opinion.

I am also in favor of Wales and Scotland being independent or in the very least, the Stuarts being put back on the throne of the United Kingdom, or better yet, the family of the man that was the basis for the legendary King Arthur, in the fight against the Saxons.

Realistically, the violence in the UK is far less than the United States, and to even try to compare the two is a practice that is futile at best, impossible in fact.

And yes, there are some sarcastic statements in the above.


We could get into this but it needs its own thread. Quickly though, just before WW1 the Protestant paramilitaries were arming for civil war. Churchill ended up sending the Royal Navy into Belfast Loch as a deterent. While I get the Catholic argument about the six counties, it overlooks two facts. I wont even touch upon the civil war between Catholics after the Easter Uprising.

1) The Proestant community is also Irish and identifies as such.
2) giving the six counties to the south wouldnt have prevernted a civil war.

Civil war, then as now, would break out from the protestant divide if we had just handed it all over to the south.



Lucylastic -> RE: Britain Ranks Most violent in Europe and "4"x worse than U.S. (1/17/2013 4:33:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

I dont trust YOUR sources, ever
PS agin with the bullshit correlation between comparable.Until they ALL use the same comparisons, the figures are skewed
DUH


Snow White, read his actual link. Dopey probably hasnt even realised it doesnt even address violent cride but is just on about out of date burglary stats.

Yours, Happy. [8D]

snow white thought 7 up was a soft drink till she discovered Smirnoff!
and I wouldnt disrespect the character dopey.
Elmer fudd on the other hand.....



jlf1961 -> RE: Britain Ranks Most violent in Europe and "4"x worse than U.S. (1/17/2013 6:05:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


We could get into this but it needs its own thread. Quickly though, just before WW1 the Protestant paramilitaries were arming for civil war. Churchill ended up sending the Royal Navy into Belfast Loch as a deterent. While I get the Catholic argument about the six counties, it overlooks two facts. I wont even touch upon the civil war between Catholics after the Easter Uprising.

1) The Proestant community is also Irish and identifies as such.
2) giving the six counties to the south wouldnt have prevernted a civil war.

Civil war, then as now, would break out from the protestant divide if we had just handed it all over to the south.



As I said, the problem will not be solved with a logical solution. If bugs bunny and daffy duck were real, they and their UK counterparts might be able to come up with a workable solution.

Again sarcasm.

I have acquaintances who live in Northern Ireland, and even they cannot see a solution that would work for any length of time.

But you are right, both sides identify themselves as Irish, and that in and of itself should give a basis for a solution, yet it hasnt. And targeting British troops sent there to keep the peace is beyond insane in my opinion.

However to bring this situation back to the topic of this thread, are the violent crimes in Northern Ireland counted in the total violent crimes of the UK or are they treated differently?

It would seem to me, and I am not a statistician, that the higher rate of violent crimes in such a small area could in effect skew the results for the country as a whole.

I also know that the older criminal element in the UK seem to have a distaste for using guns in the commission of crimes, an opinion that I developed after watching the news on BBC America, and listening to the BBC world service on shortwave. It appears to me, and I may be wrong, and if so, please show me how I am wrong, but the use of guns is the common method of younger criminals.

If this is a misconception, please tell me.



Politesub53 -> RE: Britain Ranks Most violent in Europe and "4"x worse than U.S. (1/17/2013 1:14:47 PM)

Scotland and Northern Ireland have their own figures.

Oddly enough murder rates havent gone up much since hanging was abolished. I think gun crime has increased slightly since the fall of the USSR, making cheaper weapons easily obtainable on the black market. Not that getting a gun has ever been particularly difficult from my upbringing in inner london. Ill try and find some up to date figures for you regards N.I and Scotland.

edits to add scottish crime figures.

quote:


Crime Group 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 % change 10-11 to 11-12
Total Crimes1 418,281 414,214 438,123 417,785 419,257 385,509 377,433 338,124 323,247 314,186 -3

Non-sexual crimes of violence2 16,074 15,187 14,728 13,726 14,099 12,874 12,612 11,228 11,438 9,533 -17
Homicide3 179 149 165 121 159 142 134 106 122 121 -1
Attempted murder & serious assault2,4 7,414 7,365 7,603 7,030 7,345 6,711 6,472 5,621 5,493 4,693 -15
Robbery 4,636 4,161 3,736 3,553 3,578 3,064 2,963 2,496 2,557 2,244 -12
Other 3,845 3,512 3,224 3,022 3,017 2,957 3,043 3,005 3,266 2,475 -24


if you look at the figure for 2011-2012 and use a figure of 5 million population. You get just under 5millon divided by 10,000 (Rounded up from 9,500)

That gives a total figure of 1 in 500 or 20,000 in 10 million.

I am unsure what they class as violent crime. In england a simple push, spit, harrasment, or even getting caught with an offensive weapon is recorded as violent crime.

I cant find much for Northern Ireland but will keep looking.




jlf1961 -> RE: Britain Ranks Most violent in Europe and "4"x worse than U.S. (1/17/2013 2:19:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Scotland and Northern Ireland have their own figures.

Oddly enough murder rates havent gone up much since hanging was abolished. I think gun crime has increased slightly since the fall of the USSR, making cheaper weapons easily obtainable on the black market. Not that getting a gun has ever been particularly difficult from my upbringing in inner london. Ill try and find some up to date figures for you regards N.I and Scotland.

edits to add scottish crime figures.

quote:


Crime Group 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 % change 10-11 to 11-12
Total Crimes1 418,281 414,214 438,123 417,785 419,257 385,509 377,433 338,124 323,247 314,186 -3

Non-sexual crimes of violence2 16,074 15,187 14,728 13,726 14,099 12,874 12,612 11,228 11,438 9,533 -17
Homicide3 179 149 165 121 159 142 134 106 122 121 -1
Attempted murder & serious assault2,4 7,414 7,365 7,603 7,030 7,345 6,711 6,472 5,621 5,493 4,693 -15
Robbery 4,636 4,161 3,736 3,553 3,578 3,064 2,963 2,496 2,557 2,244 -12
Other 3,845 3,512 3,224 3,022 3,017 2,957 3,043 3,005 3,266 2,475 -24


if you look at the figure for 2011-2012 and use a figure of 5 million population. You get just under 5millon divided by 10,000 (Rounded up from 9,500)

That gives a total figure of 1 in 500 or 20,000 in 10 million.

I am unsure what they class as violent crime. In england a simple push, spit, harrasment, or even getting caught with an offensive weapon is recorded as violent crime.

I cant find much for Northern Ireland but will keep looking.





I have two thoughts on capital punishment, one is that capital punishment does not deter crime, and the second is that there are some people commit crimes that are so cruel and heinous that they do not deserve to live.



Politesub53 -> RE: Britain Ranks Most violent in Europe and "4"x worse than U.S. (1/17/2013 4:20:01 PM)

My thoughts as well........ i think in certain cases, where there is absolutely no doubt...... Terrorists, the Fred Wests of this world etc, capital punishment is fully justified.



Real0ne -> RE: Britain Ranks Most violent in Europe and "4"x worse than U.S. (1/22/2013 6:55:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

I have two thoughts on capital punishment, one is that capital punishment does not deter crime, and the second is that there are some people commit crimes that are so cruel and heinous that they do not deserve to live.



and governments commit crimes with impunity.

No one to throw government in jail for their crimes but.............you got it...........government.

your power begins and ends at electing your new "leader"






Politesub53 -> RE: Britain Ranks Most violent in Europe and "4"x worse than U.S. (1/22/2013 3:25:13 PM)

"Yawns"



Real0ne -> RE: Britain Ranks Most violent in Europe and "4"x worse than U.S. (1/22/2013 7:46:35 PM)

oh come on already, its because of brits that we even have the 2nd amendment in the first place!



Politesub53 -> RE: Britain Ranks Most violent in Europe and "4"x worse than U.S. (1/23/2013 3:53:58 AM)

Its also because of us that you are not speaking French, N`est pas ?



StefanandLucinda -> RE: Britain Ranks Most violent in Europe and "4"x worse than U.S. (1/23/2013 5:44:38 AM)

Why the constant aggression and supreme condescending attitudes by some of the Brits in here? Repeatedly!! Just because the OP didn't reply constantly to some of the ravenous writings signifies that he is the more gracious one. He's not hiding away as was suggested. He might work and not be able to spend all here day going back and forth at anothers leisure.

The fact is that since your Labour Party took control, violence has skyrocketed. Britian is violent. Just admit it for christ sakes! Look within instead of fingerpointing and comparing around the world.

Poliesub53: You are incorrect. A Prussian by the name of Fredrich Wilhelm von Stueben is mostly why we are not part of the Commonwealth of Nations. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Wilhelm_von_Steuben

Have you ever fairly considered that America is the reason that the common language of the EU is not German today?

Britian has collected a tidy Monopoly of around 50+ countries so far with the Commomwealth. Should those 2.1 billion subjects be happy they don't speak French? The French people are "citizens" not subjects and bow to no one. That might mean nothing to you, but it means everything to the French and to many of us in the U.S.A.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_Nations

People in every country are violent. We will continue to rape, steal, and kill until there are no more human beings living on the earth. No country is better than another. We all covet and do whatever we want to get what we think we deserve. Bullying has always been one of the most popular tactics utilized to accomplish that.

lucinda



Moonhead -> RE: Britain Ranks Most violent in Europe and "4"x worse than U.S. (1/23/2013 5:53:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: StefanandLucinda
Have you ever fairly considered that America is the reason that the common language of the EU is not German today?

Somebody else who got their grasp of the history of the second world war from reading Sergeant Fury and his Howling Commandos, then.
How cute.



Powergamz1 -> RE: Britain Ranks Most violent in Europe and "4"x worse than U.S. (1/23/2013 5:56:16 AM)

Your last sentence answers your first.
quote:

ORIGINAL: StefanandLucinda

Why the constant aggression and supreme condescending attitudes by some of the Brits in here? Repeatedly!! Just because the OP didn't reply constantly to some of the ravenous writings signifies that he is the more gracious one. He's not hiding away as was suggested. He might work and not be able to spend all here day going back and forth at anothers leisure.

The fact is that since your Labour Party took control, violence has skyrocketed. Britian is violent. Just admit it for christ sakes! Look within instead of fingerpointing and comparing around the world.

Poliesub53: You are incorrect. A Prussian by the name of Fredrich Wilhelm von Stueben is mostly why we are not part of the Commonwealth of Nations. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Wilhelm_von_Steuben

Have you ever fairly considered that America is the reason that the common language of the EU is not German today?

Britian has collected a tidy Monopoly of around 50+ countries so far with the Commomwealth. Should those 2.1 billion subjects be happy they don't speak French? The French people are "citizens" not subjects and bow to no one. That might mean nothing to you, but it means everything to the French and to many of us in the U.S.A.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_Nations

People in every country are violent. We will continue to rape, steal, and kill until there are no more human beings living on the earth. No country is better than another. We all covet and do whatever we want to get what we think we deserve. Bullying has always been one of the most popular tactics utilized to accomplish that.

lucinda





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