RE: Actions vs words...

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cordeliasub -> RE: Actions vs words... (1/15/2013 6:51:11 AM)
I think too, and I am not sure if this has come from novels or movies or those stupid "how to pick someone up" books or what....the system that - at least in the vanilla world - people operate in to form relationships is all about tap dancing and cat and mouse. Think about it....the almost overtures, the saying what I mean without actually having to say it. Hint dropping. Everything is some convoluted dance and for whatever reason directness about feelings is seen as "unromantic." Don't get my wrong, I love banter as much as anyone. But when we are supposed to ferret out all these "secret signals" without ever coming out and talking about it.... I have to say, that is one thing about the vanilla dating world that always annoyed me. If you feel, be direct about it. If you don't, don't play someone. How hard is that???

breagha -> RE: Actions vs words... (1/15/2013 11:47:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sexyred1 Well...I guess you have very high expectations of people online. People lie and actions do not match words for many, many people. That is the reality of life. You will never change anyone else on the planet, so you can only manage your own expectations and behavior. i don't have these expectations of people online. the things i spoke of are about people in my reality. and i haven't tried to change anyone. only myself.

breagha -> RE: Actions vs words... (1/15/2013 11:53:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC BTW: If people tell you that you are "abrasive" and you blow them off that pretty much explains the abrasiveness thing... and no, it's not your stellar honesty. i take everything people might say about me to heart. i don't know that i've intentionally blown someone off for calling me abrasive. i try within the best of my ability to use the things said about or to me to look inside and understand why someone might feel the way that they do. i still don't see anything wrong with being honest and saying what i think or feel. i am only able to change things in myself but honesty isn't one thing i would want to change.

DaddySatyr -> RE: Actions vs words... (1/15/2013 12:00:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: heartcream Then again people who say they are 'brutally honest', or 'honest to a fault' may need to look at what they are actually doing. It is not okay to hurt another or ourselves. Pulling out the "I am only being honest" card in an excuse to be cruel is not cool either. I used to be "brutally honest" but, someone gave me a sentence, one day, that changed all that. I am not sure if it was theirs or if they got it from somewhere but ... "Honesty, without compassion, is brutality". Exquisitely simple but so fucking true! Peace and comfort, Michael

breagha -> RE: Actions vs words... (1/15/2013 12:03:55 PM)
on clarification... i was under the impression that brutal honesty is being disagreeably precise or correct. i don't see myself as a mean person. i am sometimes more direct and blunt than people care for. it is just one of my many flaws. one that i am currently investigating. everyone here has given me a lot to think on. and i am grateful for that. if i offended anyone i apologise.

needlesandpins -> RE: Actions vs words... (1/15/2013 12:13:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder because so many people are desperate for a relationship, sex, intimacy, love, kink, whatever it is they want, that they will say or do whatever it takes to get it, even if that means lying out their ass. It's a mememe society, all about "me", a self gratifying, instawhatever civilization now. A person with integrity is extremely hard to find these days. When you find one, hold onto him/her tightly. They are as rare as they come. this ^^^^^^^ what is ever more precious is when said person bangs on about how they always stick to their word, but then doesn't and wonders why you nolonger trust them. indignation in a liar is a wonderful thing to behold. needles

ARIES83 -> RE: Actions vs words... (1/15/2013 1:56:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sexyred1 Well...I guess you have very high expectations of people online. You will never change anyone else on the planet, so you can only manage your own expectations and behavior. quote: JeffBC Well, you're in fine company here. Not a single person on CollarMe has ever told a lie, shirked a responsibility, failed at a goal, or in any way whatsoever failed to measure up to their own standards of honor. I got the impression the op was referring to people in reality not online? sexyred1, I don't agree, You can do a hell of a lot more than manage your own expectations, you can distance yourself from people who prove themselves to be untrustworthy if you value trustworthiness you can endeavour to make friends with the type of people you respect and get along with instead of drama lamas and liars. And about the "you will never change anyone on this planet." I can see ways in which that could make sense but without getting to hypothetical... You can influence how people act around you. By being who you are and being open about what you expect. Op, IMO, as long as you are honest and objective about how closely you stick to your own standards I don't think it's unreasonable to measure the behaviour of others based on those standards, That is human nature, as well as not being perfect as everyone else has pointed out. -Aries

jlf1961 -> RE: Actions vs words... (1/15/2013 1:58:33 PM)
You show me a human that claims to tell the truth 100% and actually does.

breagha -> RE: Actions vs words... (1/15/2013 2:15:11 PM)
i lie to my daughter about mythical creatures being real. there was a time in my life when i lied to myself daily. i make an effort NOT to lie to other people. i don't see the point in deceit. i mean the things i say to the people in my life. and i back up the things i say with my actions. i'm not claiming to be flawless. sometimes i fail. my post wasn't to say " i'm perfect and why isn't everyone else" it was to get a better understanding of things that people do to those they say they care about

TheBanshee -> RE: Actions vs words... (1/15/2013 5:28:16 PM)
Often people make cruel comments and follow it up with "I'm only being honest". It isn't necessary, it wasn't solicited, and there is often an intent to be mean - and when such an honest person makes such a comment they should also be honest about the motive. If you can maintain your honest integrity when the bluntness isn't required - why insist on the cruelty?

breagha -> RE: Actions vs words... (1/15/2013 7:00:17 PM)
i'm not sure why people are equating honesty with cruelty? maybe i've missed something. i don't believe that being blunt or precise with words is cruelty. i mean i get that saying " that dress makes you look like a whore" when talking to your best friend is cruel. there are ways to be honest and blunt or direct and not be cruel. Tactful wording.

Powergamz1 -> RE: Actions vs words... (1/15/2013 7:45:13 PM)
There is a range of honesty, there is a range of tact, the area where the two overlap probably isn't as large as it should be among folks in general. quote: ORIGINAL: breagha i'm not sure why people are equating honesty with cruelty? maybe i've missed something. i don't believe that being blunt or precise with words is cruelty. i mean i get that saying " that dress makes you look like a whore" when talking to your best friend is cruel. there are ways to be honest and blunt or direct and not be cruel. Tactful wording.

TAFKAA -> RE: Actions vs words... (1/15/2013 9:06:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: breagha i have scanned the threads here and if i missed the one relevant to what i'm posting now i apologize. i would be grateful for a link to them if possible. lately i've been noticing a lot of people around me having issues with the people in their lives saying one thing and doing another. Or saying things that they think the other wants to hear instead of how they really feel. it makes me wonder how we are expected to enter and maintain relationships ( not just romantic ones but all types ) if the people we enter them with cannot be upfront and real with us. is it really so hard to say what you mean and mean what you say? Honesty goes a long way with me ( and most other people i believe ) so why do we set ourselves up for conflict or disappointment by not sticking to what we say/do? Okay, there's a couple of principles here which are necessary for you to understand human beings and navigate your way through the world. The first principle is "action reveals character". This is both a dramatic principle and a psychological one. The second is that people who try and revel in how blunt, uncompromising and truthful they are - are in fact, naive, condescending and ignorant. The reasons are many - from the fundamental underpinnings of human psychology, to the reality that everyone filters incoming information through their own model of the world (so consequently, you have to distort what you send in order for them to perceive it correctly). Telling people HOW YOU FEEL is NOT how you navigate your way through the world. You can be open with an intimate partner, sure - but running around with your feelings exposed like an open wound is not how you deal with other people. You deal with other people by appealing to their self-interest, by forming alliances and by engaging in exchanges for your mutual benefit. Or simply by influencing them to achieve the outcomes you desire. Bottom line: People will do things for you if you make them feel good. If yours is the pleasing face, pleasing voice, joyful countenance. People are utterly, utterly repelled by NEED. And it's ironic that the people who need nobody are those towards which, everyone gravitates. And lastly, we're all models of inconsistent imperfection. We excuse behaviour in our friends which we condemn in our enemies. We change our minds constantly, without admitting how or why. The key to dealing with humanity is to understand our shared imperfection, then navigate your way through the world with understanding and a pinch of compassion.

Casteele -> RE: Actions vs words... (1/15/2013 10:21:41 PM)
FR: I'll be.. ermm.. Brutally Honest with my reply here.. and forgive any randomness in my thought patterns, as my mind tends to go down two dozen paths at once.. :P When I read the original first post.. My first thot was.. It's time to skin this one alive! Why? Let's rephrase it a little.. "Why do people have to be so vile, so low, so horrible? Why can't they all be so saintly and perfect, like me!? Why can't they all bow down to, and live by the standards and rules I set, which are so clearly superior?" People have their own reasons for they things they say and how they act. And frankly, I believe we, as humans, tend to be very quick to judge them harshly, claiming some kind of higher and suprior standard.. Only to find most of the time, when we truly look within outselves and be.. again.. brutally honest with ourselves, we find that the very things we so often despise seeing in others, are things we secretly see and despise within ourselves. But we often justify it within ourselves by claiming we have some valid and legit reason for it, while that other person does not. The OP clarified that they're often called abrasive, but they veiw it as just being brutally honest. That's a justification. There is such a thing, for example, as tact, which does not require one to "sugar coat" things, but does not require one to go out of their way to emotionally harm another by forcing them to "face the obvious truth", either. Likewise, there are LOTS of people who.. well.. have a strong desire to serve and to please, on a site like this. I think we have a term for them, but I cannot think of it at the moment.. o.O Does that make them insincere scumbags when they strive to serve and please, rather than say "get your own damned drink; you have two arms and two legs, you lazy fatass!"? Other things to consider are why a person acts or responds in a certain way in certain situations. People tend to learn to do things which seem to bring about pleasurable outcomes, and avoid things which seem to bring about undesired outcomes (even maso's.. their definition of pleasure and pain is just different than others). People who have been called "fatass" all their lives and have a negative, averse reaction to it, tend to not use the term towards others, no matter how true or apt it may be. And I tend to be of the belief that running around calling everyone with an obesity problem "fatass" is not "brutally honest", but "scumsucking douchebaggery". Yet I know plenty of people who gather in small groups and run around doing just that, and justify themselves with lines like "Hey, I'm just calling a 'spade' a 'spade'!" I honestly believe the key here, both on this topic, and especially in this "lifestyle" overall, is.. Tolerance. Which, BTW, is NOT to be confused with agreement, acceptance, et cetera. It does not even mean not passing judgement--We all pass various judgements in our lives, every day. It merely means things like, being forgiving of flaws in others; not like we don't have many of our own flaws we hope others will be forgiving of in ourselves. And if you cannot be forgiving, at least try to be understanding (likewise, "understanding" doesn't mean acceptance, et cetera); there is probably some reason why the person is saying and acting in the manner that they are, even if we do not kow what that reason is, or worse, jump to conclusions. IE: "he just wants to get in to my pants"--I once worked with a girl that, very loudly and insultingly, about a guy that the rest of us knew for certain was completely homosexual. We all laughed when he replied "You're right, my ass would look better in those pants than yours does!" Just some [random] food for thought.

littlewonder -> RE: Actions vs words... (1/15/2013 10:48:06 PM)
I think there's a time, which is most of the time, for tact, but there is also a time for abrasiveness. For example, I have a friend who constantly dates the same type of men over and over again and then a few months later she gets hurt even though when she would ask me what I thought about him I would, with tact, tell her what I thought and the information I knew about him, etc....she would each time, completely ignore it all only to of course, get hurt again. I tried to be nice to her, I tried put it nicely, I tried to be a good friend but literally, after the 9th time and 4 short lived marriages later, I finally told her to fucking stop doing what she was doing and to get thee to a therapist to help with her insecurities because I was tired of cleaning up her messes afterwards and having to listen to her drama filled rants and tears. I mean, ok....first few times? I'm there for ya.....9 times later? Yeah....I'm gonna be as brutal as I can be with you. Yes, she was angry at me for about 2 weeks but later came to my house to apologize saying she had time to think about what I had said and was glad that I did. She finally realized her self sabotage was not really the fault of these men but her choices and that it was destroying her family. There was another time when I was talking to someone in real life who was telling me about how he was cheating on his wife for over 10 years with one woman after another and parading it around like he deserved an award. It was something to be proud of. Did I use tact with him? Nope, felt no reason to. I told him exactly what I thought of him and told him I no longer wished to be associated with him. Like I said, majority of the time, yes, tact is usually what one should have. But there comes a time for it all to come out in the harshest way possible. Some people just don't get it otherwise. If that means I'm insecure in some way, so be it. Does that mean I'm judgmental? Damn skippy I am and have no qualms with that.

Casteele -> RE: Actions vs words... (1/16/2013 1:27:52 AM)
In the first instance, I'd say you still used tact. You told your friend what she needed to hear, without being rude or even abrassive. Tact does not automatically mean non-offensive--If someone wants to be offended, they will be no matter how kind and gentle you are. It only means that YOU do not intentionally choose an offensive approach. It's not like you told your friend "You're just a stupid idiot for repeating the same mistakes!" In the second instance, I don't know what you told him that you thought of him, but I'm guessing that it wasn't pretty, and not likely very tactful at all. I do think your response was appropriate, however. Sometimes, as you stated, there is little or no reason to be tactful, or even tolerant.. those times, however, should "be the exception, not the rule." It's us as humans who have to make a judgement call when those exceptions occur. I do disagree with the statement that sometimes you have to use the harshest way possible to get through to people. Why do you need to get through to them? You walked away from the guy who flaunted cheating. Did you feel the need to get through to him? Your response of disassociating with him was, IMO, the proper response. You could have stuck around, and instead, made it your life's mission to make him suffer, telling everyone what a scumbag he was, putting notices in the local news paper, and a lot of other "harshest possible" things. but you didn't. You only chose to affect those things that are directly within your sphere of influence and control. Too many people, however, do not know where those boundaries are and often cross them then try to justify themselves rather than back away and rectify the transgression. IMO, the comment about "me-me-me!" was most apt.. I look at the younger generations these days, and I see so many who think "me" is the most important, and "you" is insignificant. The problem with this is that when you switch sides, "me" becomes "you", and vice versa, with an equivalent change in priorities. So who's rights are more important now, mine or yours?

littlewonder -> RE: Actions vs words... (1/16/2013 7:45:22 PM)
Why do I need to get through to them? The one is a good friend but sometimes she can be the thickest headed person on the planet. She's extremely stubborn and only hears what she wants to hear most times. I like her, I'd still like to keep her as a friend but when she comes crying to me about the same problem time after time, she needs to be hit upside the head with a clue by four and that means being harsh and abrasive with her. It's the ONLY way she hears anything. She is the type that is normally abrasive in her everyday language. Everything has to be her way, she is the type that goes into a restaurant, orders food and changes everything about her meal until it's not even the same meal on the menu anymore. She's the type that goes out of her way to sometimes make people uncomfortable. She does this stuff because she either thinks it's funny or feels everyone should go out of their way for her. So, you have to speak to her at her level that she will understand. Yes she can drive you insane. She can many times make you say "I don't know that girl" but in the end I would like to see my friend for once, not fuck up her life and find a decent man.

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