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A question of historic and modern activities by countries. - 1/18/2013 9:25:36 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		1) Israel is building settlements in the occupied territories within border set by the UN in 67 as a military buffer zone.

2) Most of the Western Hemisphere and Australia was built by colonists or settlers from Europe, the indigenous peoples were displaced, land paid for with items that come no where near the market value of the land at the time.

3) In the United States, 500 treaties made with Native Americans were broken, some within months of them being made.

Now for the record I have Cherokee and apache ancestry, making me 1/4 native American and I my family is on the Dawson rolls as part of the Eastern Band of the Cherokee and some distant relatives in the Cherokee settled in Oklahoma.

Now I believe that Israel is wrong building settlements in the occupied territory, considering it was meant to be a buffer against Arab neighbors, and in the process expelling Palestinians who have been on those lands for generations.

Now my question, with 20/20 historic hindsight and looking at the present, was any people justified in stealing land from the native peoples there?

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI
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RE: A question of historic and modern activities by cou... - 1/18/2013 9:33:11 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Now my question, with 20/20 historic hindsight and looking at the present, was any people justified in stealing land from the native peoples there?


I suppose that it depends on the justification that you want to use. Just off the top of my head, "might makes right," is a justification and seems to fit your question and examples.

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I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

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RE: A question of historic and modern activities by cou... - 1/18/2013 9:36:45 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Now my question, with 20/20 historic hindsight and looking at the present, was any people justified in stealing land from the native peoples there?


I suppose that it depends on the justification that you want to use. Just off the top of my head, "might makes right," is a justification and seems to fit your question and examples.



Yeah, that seems to be the common idea.

That and I found one American from around 1830 that used the bible to justify it, when Joshua led the Israelites into the holy land. Problem with that one is that I cannot find anywhere where someone in Europe was promised anything in American by God.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

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RE: A question of historic and modern activities by cou... - 1/18/2013 10:09:06 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		You are aware that the Cherokee and other 'Native' American tribes were not the orignal peoples on the North American continent aren't you?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennewick_Man


Does it make it OK if the ones they took the land from aren't around to complain?




quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

1) Israel is building settlements in the occupied territories within border set by the UN in 67 as a military buffer zone.

2) Most of the Western Hemisphere and Australia was built by colonists or settlers from Europe, the indigenous peoples were displaced, land paid for with items that come no where near the market value of the land at the time.

3) In the United States, 500 treaties made with Native Americans were broken, some within months of them being made.

Now for the record I have Cherokee and apache ancestry, making me 1/4 native American and I my family is on the Dawson rolls as part of the Eastern Band of the Cherokee and some distant relatives in the Cherokee settled in Oklahoma.

Now I believe that Israel is wrong building settlements in the occupied territory, considering it was meant to be a buffer against Arab neighbors, and in the process expelling Palestinians who have been on those lands for generations.

Now my question, with 20/20 historic hindsight and looking at the present, was any people justified in stealing land from the native peoples there?



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" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

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RE: A question of historic and modern activities by cou... - 1/18/2013 10:10:20 PM   
muhly22222


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quote:

Problem with that one is that I cannot find anywhere where someone in Europe was promised anything in American by God.


Well, maybe not in the Bible. But Manifest Destiny and all that...it was Americans' God-given right to own land from sea to shining sea!

Historically speaking, when land is taken from one people and given to another (or taken by another), the losing party is not happy. They are emotionally tied to the land, and economically tied to it. There are always reasons to take it, whether it be to serve as a military buffer, because it's better farmland, because it has more natural resources (like metals or oil). Those reasons may not measure up to what a person deems to be morally proper, and they may or may not be worth the difficulties that may or may not result.

Whether they were justified or not is always going to be a matter of perspective. One could easily argue that Europeans (and later, Americans) were justified in taking land from Native Americans because they could make more efficient use of it that the indigenous people could. Of course, it's just as easy to say that since Native Americans were there first, they deserved to be treated as owners of the land.

The Israel situation is very difficult. Both sides have a historical interest in the land. Both sides have strong emotional ties to the geographic area. It's difficult to put "right" on any side, given how poorly the situation was handled in 1948, and how both sides have acted in the years since.

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RE: A question of historic and modern activities by cou... - 1/18/2013 10:24:16 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
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From: Somewhere Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

You are aware that the Cherokee and other 'Native' American tribes were not the orignal peoples on the North American continent aren't you?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennewick_Man


Does it make it OK if the ones they took the land from aren't around to complain?




quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

1) Israel is building settlements in the occupied territories within border set by the UN in 67 as a military buffer zone.

2) Most of the Western Hemisphere and Australia was built by colonists or settlers from Europe, the indigenous peoples were displaced, land paid for with items that come no where near the market value of the land at the time.

3) In the United States, 500 treaties made with Native Americans were broken, some within months of them being made.

Now for the record I have Cherokee and apache ancestry, making me 1/4 native American and I my family is on the Dawson rolls as part of the Eastern Band of the Cherokee and some distant relatives in the Cherokee settled in Oklahoma.

Now I believe that Israel is wrong building settlements in the occupied territory, considering it was meant to be a buffer against Arab neighbors, and in the process expelling Palestinians who have been on those lands for generations.

Now my question, with 20/20 historic hindsight and looking at the present, was any people justified in stealing land from the native peoples there?





Yup, I am fully aware that the clovis culture was most likely European that came along the Northern Atlantic Ice sheet, the fact that the clovis point does not match anything out of Asia, but does match points found in france and other parts of Europe.

Clovis culture points are found up to one level of the archeological record, and then for about 4000 years there are no points, then suddenly there are points that are closer to Asian points.

The current theory is that an asteroid impacted the Laurentide ice sheet sheet resulting in a mass extinction of the clovis people, but I doubt it, because that would have taken out the larger animals.

When the asian peoples came across the Barents land bridge, there still was giant animals in the Americas.

My personal opinion, based on nothing at all, is that something impacted the Clovis culture and the survivors interbred with the asian people, but that would mean that clovis points would be found above the last layer they are found in.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

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RE: A question of historic and modern activities by cou... - 1/19/2013 5:49:05 AM   
Politesub53


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Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

1) Israel is building settlements in the occupied territories within border set by the UN in 67 as a military buffer zone.

2) Most of the Western Hemisphere and Australia was built by colonists or settlers from Europe, the indigenous peoples were displaced, land paid for with items that come no where near the market value of the land at the time.

3) In the United States, 500 treaties made with Native Americans were broken, some within months of them being made.

Now for the record I have Cherokee and apache ancestry, making me 1/4 native American and I my family is on the Dawson rolls as part of the Eastern Band of the Cherokee and some distant relatives in the Cherokee settled in Oklahoma.

Now I believe that Israel is wrong building settlements in the occupied territory, considering it was meant to be a buffer against Arab neighbors, and in the process expelling Palestinians who have been on those lands for generations.

Now my question, with 20/20 historic hindsight and looking at the present, was any people justified in stealing land from the native peoples there?


Good question and it relates to my post on another thread about history.

1) Any land occupied by the indigenous natives, were probably not the original "indigenous natives"

2) Even in America the tribes displaced by Colonists, were themselves displacing other tribes. The Sioux, Apache, Cheyenne etc were not beyond taking over other tribes land

3) Dont start me off on the British Isles, we have the original British Celts, who are now mostly Cornish, Welsh and in Brittany. We had the Romans, Picts, Scots, Vikings, Angles, Saxons, Friesians and Normans, and a myriad of influences I cant even remember.

4) The Aboriginal tribes can be found world wide. From Nporth America, to the pacific, to Australia. How did they end up there ?

5) Israel was at one time several different City States and not all of them Jewish.

6) None of the above is wrong in the context of history, it is just wrong under todays notion of "Colonialism" It just fails to set things in an historical context.

7) To sum up.. The whole world and Peoples in fluid, call it colonialism, call it immigration, the one thing it isnt is static.

The notion of going back to the old days is romantic but ludicrous, Wales and Scotland would both have substandard public services if they were not part of the UK. Thats not to mention the fact more Scots live and work in England than Scotland.

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RE: A question of historic and modern activities by cou... - 1/19/2013 5:53:48 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Now my question, with 20/20 historic hindsight and looking at the present, was any people justified in stealing land from the native peoples there?


I suppose that it depends on the justification that you want to use. Just off the top of my head, "might makes right," is a justification and seems to fit your question and examples.



Might makes right is an excuse, theft has no justification.

(in reply to Aylee)
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RE: A question of historic and modern activities by cou... - 1/19/2013 6:09:55 AM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		Politesub53

What you say is true, too a degree.

While the fossil records do not indicate any human population in Australia prior to the arrival of the Aborigines it does not mean that there were not any, just means no record has been found.

And I agree, as colonists displaced indians in the east they moved west, displacing other tribes. The souix and cheyenne were originally from Minnesota if memory serves and were forced west by tribes moving into the region by being forced out of their territories by other tribes forced out of the eastern US by incoming colonists.

So basically each tribe did what was done to them by someone else.

And it has been happening since the dawn of time.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to Politesub53)
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RE: A question of historic and modern activities by cou... - 1/19/2013 6:41:58 AM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Now my question, with 20/20 historic hindsight and looking at the present, was any people justified in stealing land from the native peoples there?


I suppose that it depends on the justification that you want to use. Just off the top of my head, "might makes right," is a justification and seems to fit your question and examples.



Might makes right is an excuse, theft has no justification.



Oh, I don't know about that. What is it they say? You can't fight City Hall? From the point of City Hall, they're right even when they're wrong.

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RE: A question of historic and modern activities by cou... - 1/19/2013 7:57:30 AM   
WantsOfTheFlesh


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Now I believe that Israel is wrong building settlements in the occupied territory, considering it was meant to be a buffer against Arab neighbors

mister jif its worth pointin' out dat da Jews lived in da West bank long before Israel waz founded too an' two of their three holiest ancient religious sites are there. Nut sayin' da settlements don't cause problems wit gettin peace but its nut quite da same as da White Eye a comin' to da US...

< Message edited by WantsOfTheFlesh -- 1/19/2013 8:10:46 AM >

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RE: A question of historic and modern activities by cou... - 1/19/2013 10:28:10 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

Oh, I don't know about that. What is it they say? You can't fight City Hall? From the point of City Hall, they're right even when they're wrong.


Well poor you. I thought you had a democracy over there and could do as we do and vote in local elections.

If you dont vote in local elections, the only one to blame is you. Something I constantly tell my brother, fwiw.

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RE: A question of historic and modern activities by cou... - 1/19/2013 10:34:26 AM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

Oh, I don't know about that. What is it they say? You can't fight City Hall? From the point of City Hall, they're right even when they're wrong.


Well poor you. I thought you had a democracy over there and could do as we do and vote in local elections.

If you dont vote in local elections, the only one to blame is you. Something I constantly tell my brother, fwiw.




It is not the people that are voted into city hall that is the problem.

It is those damn dimwitted know it all fucked up bureaucrats that are the problem

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to Politesub53)
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RE: A question of historic and modern activities by cou... - 1/19/2013 10:38:03 AM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		Are you suggesting elected officals have no control over their minions then ?


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RE: A question of historic and modern activities by cou... - 1/19/2013 10:50:46 AM   
jlf1961


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From: Somewhere Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Are you suggesting elected officals have no control over their minions then ?




If the elected officials actually managed the system instead of just signing documents and doing photo shoots, yes they would.

You see the average British person does not grasp the intricacies of American politics.

1) first there is the campaign, the primary tactic is to say whatever you think the voters want to hear, not that you are actually going to go through with what you say.

2) Hire a staff of bureaucrats to handle the day to day operations, only bothering you when something needs signed, reading the paperwork is optional but not required.

3) At city level, occasionally propose a new city ordnance, hold a press conference to deal with whatever near scandal the local news has dug up. At higher levels, such as state or federal, toe the party line, propose bills to please the party financial backers, call the other side obstructionist or any thing that makes them look bad, and vote when necessary. (reading and understanding the bill being voted on is discouraged.)

4) Be available for photo ops and speaking engagements to make your stand on the issues known through sound bites.

5) Never, ever let the voters find out you are actually doing nothing constructive to deal with any of the issues you addressed in the campaign.

Those are the basics of American Politics

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to Politesub53)
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RE: A question of historic and modern activities by cou... - 1/19/2013 7:37:31 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Are you suggesting elected officals have no control over their minions then ?


If the elected officials actually managed the system instead of just signing documents and doing photo shoots, yes they would.
You see the average British person does not grasp the intricacies of American politics.
1) first there is the campaign, the primary tactic is to say whatever you think the voters want to hear, not that you are actually going to go through with what you say.
2) Hire a staff of bureaucrats to handle the day to day operations, only bothering you when something needs signed, reading the paperwork is optional but not required.
3) At city level, occasionally propose a new city ordnance, hold a press conference to deal with whatever near scandal the local news has dug up. At higher levels, such as state or federal, toe the party line, propose bills to please the party financial backers, call the other side obstructionist or any thing that makes them look bad, and vote when necessary. (reading and understanding the bill being voted on is discouraged.)
4) Be available for photo ops and speaking engagements to make your stand on the issues known through sound bites.
5) Never, ever let the voters find out you are actually doing nothing constructive to deal with any of the issues you addressed in the campaign.
Those are the basics of American Politics


You forgot some:
6) If you are losing in the debate, call your opponent, racist, a Nazi, a Socialist, or a ____-wing nutcase. Also, making a pitch to show your opponent is waging a war against ______ is helpful, too.

7) Say it often. It'll eventually catch on, regardless of reality.

8) Say it louder. The louder you say it, the truer it becomes.

Merge the last two and you are damn near unbeatable.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to jlf1961)
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RE: A question of historic and modern activities by cou... - 1/19/2013 8:13:26 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Now my question, with 20/20 historic hindsight and looking at the present, was any people justified in stealing land from the native peoples there?


I suppose that it depends on the justification that you want to use. Just off the top of my head, "might makes right," is a justification and seems to fit your question and examples.



well I gotta take my hat off to ya on this one jeff.

Yep its morally stealing, but not legally stealing.

Now you know the whole basis of my complaint about the whole 9 yards of statism and the bullshit lawform that goes with it.

What happened is once land is surveyed it becomes then"registered" it becomes part of the TRUST! Once that happens you only have usufruct privileges and they the underlying "soil" in trust! Your soil was conquered or "purchased" put into a trust under the united states then patents issued. What is a patent for? Ownership is only as good as what the corporate state is willing to protect and that opens that door to charge you school taxes even though you home school! the word ownership is meaningless as it only describes an interest in land based on ad valorem and all this shit goes right back to pre colonial england! They changed the names but the substance remains the same. See fargs 2nd amendment bone thread.

Have fun with that :)

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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RE: A question of historic and modern activities by cou... - 1/19/2013 8:32:30 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: muhly22222

quote:

Problem with that one is that I cannot find anywhere where someone in Europe was promised anything in American by God.


Well, maybe not in the Bible. But Manifest Destiny and all that...it was Americans' God-given right to own land from sea to shining sea!

Historically speaking, when land is taken from one people and given to another (or taken by another), the losing party is not happy. They are emotionally tied to the land, and economically tied to it. There are always reasons to take it, whether it be to serve as a military buffer, because it's better farmland, because it has more natural resources (like metals or oil). Those reasons may not measure up to what a person deems to be morally proper, and they may or may not be worth the difficulties that may or may not result.

Whether they were justified or not is always going to be a matter of perspective. One could easily argue that Europeans (and later, Americans) were justified in taking land from Native Americans because they could make more efficient use of it that the indigenous people could. Of course, it's just as easy to say that since Native Americans were there first, they deserved to be treated as owners of the land.

The Israel situation is very difficult. Both sides have a historical interest in the land. Both sides have strong emotional ties to the geographic area. It's difficult to put "right" on any side, given how poorly the situation was handled in 1948, and how both sides have acted in the years since.





yep and establishing a state giving preference supported by arms to one party while the other gets shit on serves to promote love and coziness.




_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to muhly22222)
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RE: A question of historic and modern activities by cou... - 1/19/2013 9:27:14 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		It is ironic that my great Grandmother was Cherokee yet my grand father 5 times removed was killed at the Long Creek Massacre in S Carolina by Cherokees in 1760. All anyone seems to talk about is how the settlers of many nationalities broke treaties with the Indians. Yet the Cherokee broke a treaty with the settlers of S. Carolina because of a disagreement with the British. My grandfather and his fellow settlers bought the land they farmed from the Cherokees…they did not take it by force. So there was treachery on both sides.

No one really owns land…I don’t own my house or my property …my country does not own its part of N America… we are tenets. Here temporarily until the next person or group of people claim it. Someday there will be no United States… there will be no United Kingdom…all countries and people or but page holders in history.

There is no blame or claim to or for who takes what piece of land and owns it at any one time in history. All through history every country existing today has been taken…lost…and retaken. We have all benefited from the atrocities and conquests of the past. There or no innocents… Not the American Indians that fought and took land from each other… Not the Palestinians whose distant relatives took the land from others… certainly not the Israelis…or the Germans… or the French…or the Chinese …no country today was not formed from a conquest in the past.

So the holier than thou bunch who condemn all America because of its conquests are nothing but hypocrites who refuse to look at their own history.

Butch

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: A question of historic and modern activities by cou... - 1/19/2013 9:49:40 PM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline 		Well if you really want to look at all this, just about every country in world at one time invaded another country, so there is plenty of finger pointing to go around.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_invasions

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