RE: The Dualism of Obedience

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MsKatHouston -> RE: The Dualism of Obedience (6/20/2006 4:35:31 PM)
quote: Yes, this probably does narrow the field considerably but at my age, I've had my share of vanilla relationships where some kinky play occurs in the bedroom while we lay out our mutual responsibilities in the day to day. I want to experience being controlled...for real...with consequences that contribute to shaping me into the person she envisions. I would like to experience a transformation. I'm sure there are people out there who would enjoy something like this and perhaps there are many more who have never really stopped and realized that it actually can be done. I think most doms do have this amount of control. There are consequesnces for actions, both positive and negative to reinforce behavior or to encourage not repeating it. How that occurs though is very often not with corporal because that is too much like play and like others have said, like rewarding for bad behavior. That being said, there is real life that has to be considered. Most people are not independently wealthy and have to have a job. Many people have families. However, we also do not stop being dom/sub while dealing with these things. There are expectations and rewards and punishments. Can yo ugive me an example of a "day in the life" of the "real" control in which you seek? quote: who have woven the whole ritual, acting out, expression of being a Dominant, into their daily lives to the point that it's no effort for them at all because it's what they naturally enjoy I see a lot of people where this is true. I wonder if my definition of how this is accomplished differs from your own.

AAkasha -> RE: The Dualism of Obedience (6/20/2006 4:48:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: anthrosub I would say my focus is on finding someone a few notches above the type you describe and beyond; the further the better. Ideally, I would like to meet someone who naturally enjoys Domination and exploring the whole spectrum of how it can be expressed. To me, that is how I understand the term "play" and would equate it to experimentation; exploring together what gives both of us the sense of fulfillment we enjoy and what doesn't. It's not about "requirements" at all, especially if it's what both people seek; in this case it would be a natural occurence and expression of our personalities. What's wrong with that? Yes, this probably does narrow the field considerably but at my age, I've had my share of vanilla relationships where some kinky play occurs in the bedroom while we lay out our mutual responsibilities in the day to day. I want to experience being controlled...for real...with consequences that contribute to shaping me into the person she envisions. I would like to experience a transformation. I'm sure there are people out there who would enjoy something like this and perhaps there are many more who have never really stopped and realized that it actually can be done. One word: Micromanagement. Did you ever consider that your desires/expectations are not realistic? I believe that the more "control" a submissive wants his femdom to have (on a spectrum of consistency, frequency and intenisty) the farther and farther he gets from reality. It's a very easy "fantasy" to have in your head because you are not the femdom who must live in the world of "control" -- control is not merely a series of actions. It's a mindset, and one that requires constant energy flow. Even femdoms need downtime. Some subs scoff at the idea of "just in the bedroom" domination. "Just in the bedroom" is not only because some people think BDSM = Sex = Bedroom. It's because BDSM+Kitchen and BDSM+backyard and BDSM+Trip to the Mall is exhausting, even for the most energetic of femdoms. I have what I consider a really high, intense desire for bdsm and for a large range of activities. However, I have had a few bdsm relationships where submissives desired that "continuum" of power to be flowing throughout the relationship, not just be subjected to my rushes of power or desires for control. Or, they wanted a regiment, a routine, almost like a schedule. Or, they wanted the underlying "fuel" of our relationship to be based on my power. BURNOUT!! In a matter of weeks, if not days. I hope you will reconsider your ideals if this is sounding like what you seek. Femdoms are not endlessly fueled this way (if there are some, I congratulate them on their energy levels). Akasha

anthrosub -> RE: The Dualism of Obedience (6/20/2006 5:07:47 PM)
I envision the two of us starting off with a period of getting to know each other and how we currently manage our lives. I'm assuming here that the Dominant has, because of her personality, organized and structured the way she likes to greet each day and move through it. During this time, we both get the opportunity to observe each other. For me, I get to see and take note of what she enjoys and what some of her more salient expectations might be...what some of her dislikes may be as well. At the same time, she is observing who I am and how I conduct myself and perhaps putting together a plan for how she will proceed to introduce the changes she would like to make, while at the same time preserving the things I appear to have that are desirable. Fast forward... We have gotten to know each other quite a bit. We have both gone through enough conversations about what we've observed in each other and I've been given enough instruction on how she expects me to behave and what my freedoms and limitations are (my boundaries if you will) and my duties. In the course of our day, I would be doing my part to fulfill her expectations (because I willingly want to) and she will be inwardly observing my performance in dealing with the day to day events, knowing we both have agreed on how the D/s aspects underpin everything we do. If I don't meet her expectations and depending on the degree of the disappointment or offense, a reprimand may be in order tailored to whatever happened. Or it could be something more intense involving a change she has planned for me and feels some sort of reinforcement is necessary. It could also be a moment where she simply wishes to express her control just because she can or is in the mood. The context here could be anything from cleaning the home, how a trip to the supermarket takes place, fixing dinner, entertaining guests, to a full blown "session" of training with all the trimmings. The point is the context is a fluid situation that changes spontaneously where absolute control is beyond reach at times while other times, there's adequate space for some serious concentration. As far as our respective views of how this has been accomplished by others, I think it's perfectly expectable that they might differ. anthrosub

anthrosub -> RE: The Dualism of Obedience (6/20/2006 5:17:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha quote: ORIGINAL: anthrosub I would say my focus is on finding someone a few notches above the type you describe and beyond; the further the better. Ideally, I would like to meet someone who naturally enjoys Domination and exploring the whole spectrum of how it can be expressed. To me, that is how I understand the term "play" and would equate it to experimentation; exploring together what gives both of us the sense of fulfillment we enjoy and what doesn't. It's not about "requirements" at all, especially if it's what both people seek; in this case it would be a natural occurence and expression of our personalities. What's wrong with that? Yes, this probably does narrow the field considerably but at my age, I've had my share of vanilla relationships where some kinky play occurs in the bedroom while we lay out our mutual responsibilities in the day to day. I want to experience being controlled...for real...with consequences that contribute to shaping me into the person she envisions. I would like to experience a transformation. I'm sure there are people out there who would enjoy something like this and perhaps there are many more who have never really stopped and realized that it actually can be done. One word: Micromanagement. Did you ever consider that your desires/expectations are not realistic? I believe that the more "control" a submissive wants his femdom to have (on a spectrum of consistency, frequency and intenisty) the farther and farther he gets from reality. It's a very easy "fantasy" to have in your head because you are not the femdom who must live in the world of "control" -- control is not merely a series of actions. It's a mindset, and one that requires constant energy flow. Even femdoms need downtime. Some subs scoff at the idea of "just in the bedroom" domination. "Just in the bedroom" is not only because some people think BDSM = Sex = Bedroom. It's because BDSM+Kitchen and BDSM+backyard and BDSM+Trip to the Mall is exhausting, even for the most energetic of femdoms. I have what I consider a really high, intense desire for bdsm and for a large range of activities. However, I have had a few bdsm relationships where submissives desired that "continuum" of power to be flowing throughout the relationship, not just be subjected to my rushes of power or desires for control. Or, they wanted a regiment, a routine, almost like a schedule. Or, they wanted the underlying "fuel" of our relationship to be based on my power. BURNOUT!! In a matter of weeks, if not days. I hope you will reconsider your ideals if this is sounding like what you seek. Femdoms are not endlessly fueled this way (if there are some, I congratulate them on their energy levels). Akasha I totally agree with you. I really don't expect to find a situation where the Dominant is "on" 24/7. Instead, I believe there are people out there who have a healthy passion for experimenting with ideas and when in a relationship, work towards finding the happy medium between everyday life and time set aside to focus. That happy medium will be found as we get to know each other and our respective individual responsibilities that are unavoidable and part of life. There are also ways to signal when it's time to relax and have some "down time" without disrupting the momentum that's been established between us. In fact, the very act of stepping in and out of the D/s aspects of the relationship can be seen as a responsibility (especially on my part), without interferring with enjoying said down time. anthrosub

AAkasha -> RE: The Dualism of Obedience (6/20/2006 5:26:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: anthrosub Fast forward... We have gotten to know each other quite a bit. We have both gone through enough conversations about what we've observed in each other and I've been given enough instruction on how she expects me to behave and what my freedoms and limitations are (my boundaries if you will) and my duties. In the course of our day, I would be doing my part to fulfill her expectations (because I willingly want to) and she will be inwardly observing my performance in dealing with the day to day events, knowing we both have agreed on how the D/s aspects underpin everything we do. If I don't meet her expectations and depending on the degree of the disappointment or offense, a reprimand may be in order tailored to whatever happened. Or it could be something more intense involving a change she has planned for me and feels some sort of reinforcement is necessary. It could also be a moment where she simply wishes to express her control just because she can or is in the mood. The context here could be anything from cleaning the home, how a trip to the supermarket takes place, fixing dinner, entertaining guests, to a full blown "session" of training with all the trimmings. The point is the context is a fluid situation that changes spontaneously where absolute control is beyond reach at times while other times, there's adequate space for some serious concentration. As far as our respective views of how this has been accomplished by others, I think it's perfectly expectable that they might differ. anthrosub Note the part that I have underlined. What have your experiences been with femdoms and their thoughts about BDSM and "punishment"? Especially in the context of a longterm relationship? In most of my experience (and speaking for myself), "relationship" issues (like disappointments, transgressions, things not being done properly) are generally not dealt with in the context of kink, punishment, correction or discipline -- after all, the man is a submissive. Even if he is not a masochist, he is enjoying the dominant attention. Whose not to say he will start faltering on tasks if he is feeling he's missing the kinky edge? And, then, in a perfect scenario -- when the man has acheived close to perfection, he would NEVER need discipline or attention. Surely he would not be happy in this scenario if he is someone who enjoys some level of discipline. So what is he to do? Falter on purpose? If so, what is the effect on trust and communication in the relationship? What does the femdom do/feel when she can tell he is "screwing up" on purpose? Most femdoms, in my experience, prefer straightforward communication when expectations are not met. And, instead of punishment, removal of kink is the desired option -- after all, subs are motivated by kink. My husband/boytoy rarely ever disappointments me; he has his routine down to a science, he can read my mind, he never has to be told twice. There are no disappointments on shopping trips, with a dinner preparation, or him talking out of turn in front of my peers or professional associates. If we lived in the context you designed, I would be having zero kink time. No need to correct! The most important point is that you have to realize what you seek is attention. You want dominant attention. In your fantasy, it focussed on keeping you in your place. In a real relationship, the desire to be "in your place" should come from within, not from her sadism/bdsm kinks/fetishes. Otherwise, you are looking at navigating the already complex and complicated waters of "managing a healthy relationship and sustaining good communication" with a whole set of "underlying kink rules." It's much easier for the femdom to say, "You let me down. Don't do that again, ok?" Akasha

AAkasha -> RE: The Dualism of Obedience (6/20/2006 5:29:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: anthrosub I totally agree with you. I really don't expect to find a situation where the Dominant is "on" 24/7. Instead, I believe there are people out there who have a healthy passion for experimenting with ideas and when in a relationship, work towards finding the happy medium between everyday life and time set aside to focus. That happy medium will be found as we get to know each other and our respective individual responsibilities that are unavoidable and part of life. There are also ways to signal when it's time to relax and have some "down time" without disrupting the momentum that's been established between us. In fact, the very act of stepping in and out of the D/s aspects of the relationship can be seen as a responsibility (especially on my part), without interferring with enjoying said down time. anthrosub So what is the "punishment" or correction for you not stepping out of the D/s aspects of the relationship? Akasha

subfever -> RE: The Dualism of Obedience (6/20/2006 5:34:24 PM)
quote: It may not be sexual, or perceived as sexual to alot of people who practice wiitwd. But I think it has to be mutual. I dont think anyone gives anything without feeling fulfilled in return. I think thats where alot of Dominants (not ALL) make their mistake. They think there are people out there living and dying for no other reason than to be dedicated to another person's happiness, all while foresaking their own needs. IMO Dominants/Masters who expect this will probably go all their lives being disappointed. A sub/slave being motivated towards service-orientation is one thing. Alot of submissives feel motived to serve and to please. The problem is in finding Dominants/Masters who know how to inspire. Without continuous inspiration from the Master, continuous dedication from the sub will be impossible. Any relationship where one or the other party is not getting their needs met is doomed to failure. Its not only about one persons pleasure and service. You get back what you put in. No matter which side of the equation you're on. Its that simple. I don't disagree with anything you've said. In fact, I even took the liberty to italicize what I consider to be the key to your post. I feel a need to serve and to please. However, there's an underlying sensual foundation to this which I believe is driven by my libido and my desire for an enhanced level of intimacy that I've been unable to achieve via vanilla relationships. There's no doubt in my mind that if I ever found myself in a F/m relationship going long-term without my needs being met, I would leave the relationship... just as I would in a vanilla relationship. Would anyone here react differently?

ladylexington -> RE: The Dualism of Obedience (6/20/2006 5:47:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: anthrosub I'd also like to keep the thread from taking a detour if possible. Taking a detour? I'm still trying to understand your point.

anthrosub -> RE: The Dualism of Obedience (6/20/2006 6:11:29 PM)
Again, I agree with what you're pointing out and really do see it the way you do in spite of what I've written. It may sound like what I'm looking for is a "Dominant's" answer to every incident but I'm not. I think what would take place is something like a balancing act. If I fail in my performance, I would think it to be her perrogative whether she wants to answer it within the context of BDSM or simply talk about it. That mirrors the broader context of living the day to day and when will there be time to focus on BDSM or not. As to my deliberately failing to gain attention, I think that falls into the realm of trust just as any other aspect of a relationship would; and if I were to be found out, that would definitely be a major issue for both of us. After all, it would be undermining the relationship wouldn't it? As to your second post, I'm questioning why you think I'm overly focused on everything needing some form of punishment. As I just said, issues that are real deal breakers will be addressed soberly and everything inbetween will most likely be addressed within that "happy medium" we hopefully will have reached within the relationship. I'm not that disillusioned. I do appreciate your thoughts and questions, so please don't get me wrong. anthrosub

anthrosub -> RE: The Dualism of Obedience (6/20/2006 6:13:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ladylexington quote: ORIGINAL: anthrosub I'd also like to keep the thread from taking a detour if possible. Taking a detour? I'm still trying to understand your point. At this point, I can only say never mind. The thought I had with the original post never really got off the ground. anthrosub

subfever -> RE: The Dualism of Obedience (6/20/2006 6:15:23 PM)
quote: The "Unpaid Labor Doctrine" exists and is quite functional in relationships -- it's called devotion and being in love. It is ironic that it exists a lot in vanilla relationships. When a man loves a woman deeply, he will do anything for her, and he gets a tremendous amount of pleasure doing it. He does not share this devotion with any woman, he does not seek out women to give it to; in fact, he often has to be very deeply involved to be this devoted. But once he is, he will go to the ends of the earth to put a smile on the face of the woman he loves. I couldn't agree more. Too bad cranking-up the level of this type of behavior doesn't work very well in the vanilla world. It seems to cause vanilla women to slowly lose their attraction for men. But then again, if this wasn't the case, I wouldn't be here seeking another Domme. quote: Then there are submissives. They claim to offer this unconditional devotion, but it always has strings attached. The femdom is expected to play those strings to get the desired effect -- submission and devotion. When she does not, she has a malcontent on her hands. Or, she is told she is not a true dominant. Is the problem really that strings are being attached, or is it a problem of poor initial communication by one or both parties prior to jumping into a relationship?

TeeGO -> RE: The Dualism of Obedience (6/20/2006 7:00:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subfever quote: It may not be sexual, or perceived as sexual to alot of people who practice wiitwd. But I think it has to be mutual. I dont think anyone gives anything without feeling fulfilled in return. I think thats where alot of Dominants (not ALL) make their mistake. They think there are people out there living and dying for no other reason than to be dedicated to another person's happiness, all while foresaking their own needs. IMO Dominants/Masters who expect this will probably go all their lives being disappointed. A sub/slave being motivated towards service-orientation is one thing. Alot of submissives feel motived to serve and to please. The problem is in finding Dominants/Masters who know how to inspire. Without continuous inspiration from the Master, continuous dedication from the sub will be impossible. Any relationship where one or the other party is not getting their needs met is doomed to failure. Its not only about one persons pleasure and service. You get back what you put in. No matter which side of the equation you're on. Its that simple. I don't disagree with anything you've said. In fact, I even took the liberty to italicize what I consider to be the key to your post. I feel a need to serve and to please. However, there's an underlying sensual foundation to this which I believe is driven by my libido and my desire for an enhanced level of intimacy that I've been unable to achieve via vanilla relationships. There's no doubt in my mind that if I ever found myself in a F/m relationship going long-term without my needs being met, I would leave the relationship... just as I would in a vanilla relationship. Would anyone here react differently? Very well put subfever. I just want to add from my own personal view of things. I want to live in a headspace, created both by my actions and desires and my Mistress' actions and desires, that it's all about the Domme. Service to her, worship of her, obedience to her. But at the same time I will know through my trust of her she will be taking very good care of me and seeing that my needs are met. My mind is on pleasing her, her mind is on taking care of me. A beautiful harmony IMO.

cloudboy -> RE: The Dualism of Obedience (6/20/2006 8:24:48 PM)
quote: The "Unpaid Labor Doctrine" exists and is quite functional in relationships -- it's called devotion and being in love. It is ironic that it exists a lot in vanilla relationships. You are missing the point [by a large margin too.] In regular relationships, the service is usually divided 50-50. I would call it more committment than "love and devotion" as well. quote: Then there are submissives. They claim to offer this unconditional devotion, but it always has strings attached. I see, if someone's not an altruist, then there are "strings attached." Nice slant. Frankly, I don't really see how you can defend people who want to receive something for nothing. quote: The femdom is expected to play those strings to get the desired effect -- submission and devotion. When she does not, she has a malcontent on her hands. Yes, heaven forbid she invest herself in the relationship and obviate the whole negative pattern. quote: Does he consider it "unpaid labor doctrine"? You don't even understand what the unpaid labor doctrine is, so your commenting on it is misplaced.

marieToo -> RE: The Dualism of Obedience (6/20/2006 8:27:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subfever quote: It may not be sexual, or perceived as sexual to alot of people who practice wiitwd. But I think it has to be mutual. I dont think anyone gives anything without feeling fulfilled in return. I think thats where alot of Dominants (not ALL) make their mistake. They think there are people out there living and dying for no other reason than to be dedicated to another person's happiness, all while foresaking their own needs. IMO Dominants/Masters who expect this will probably go all their lives being disappointed. A sub/slave being motivated towards service-orientation is one thing. Alot of submissives feel motived to serve and to please. The problem is in finding Dominants/Masters who know how to inspire. Without continuous inspiration from the Master, continuous dedication from the sub will be impossible. Any relationship where one or the other party is not getting their needs met is doomed to failure. Its not only about one persons pleasure and service. You get back what you put in. No matter which side of the equation you're on. Its that simple. I don't disagree with anything you've said. In fact, I even took the liberty to italicize what I consider to be the key to your post. I feel a need to serve and to please. However, there's an underlying sensual foundation to this which I believe is driven by my libido and my desire for an enhanced level of intimacy that I've been unable to achieve via vanilla relationships. There's no doubt in my mind that if I ever found myself in a F/m relationship going long-term without my needs being met, I would leave the relationship... just as I would in a vanilla relationship. Would anyone here react differently? Yes, I agree with your last statement. As far as my own submission, sometimes libido is a part of it and other times its not. I would say for myself, that at least most of the time there is a sexual or sensual feeling that I get from submitting. But then, I did serve a man for a period of time where sex wasnt involved, and frankly I was quite shocked myself that I really didnt desire it or miss it. I wanted nothing more than to be around him and do whatever I could for him. I didnt even fantasize about having sex with him. So for me personally, it can go either way, depending on the person I am involved with. But with this particular man, my pleasure was coming from serving him in some way...so I was still drawing pleasure from the relationship. So, thats why I think that both parties' needs/desires do come into it, one way or the other. I hear slaves say that its all about what their Masters want. But if pleasing Master brings the slave pleasure, then the slave is in fact getting something from it too. And like you, I would not stay in the relationship if I didnt feel at least some fulfillment on some level/s.

subfever -> RE: The Dualism of Obedience (6/20/2006 8:41:33 PM)
quote: I just want to add from my own personal view of things. I want to live in a headspace, created both by my actions and desires and my Mistress' actions and desires, that it's all about the Domme. Service to her, worship of her, obedience to her. But at the same time I will know through my trust of her she will be taking very good care of me and seeing that my needs are met. My mind is on pleasing her, her mind is on taking care of me. A beautiful harmony IMO. Ahh... yes. I couldn't imagine having anything better than a harmonious relationship with a Domme I adore! That summarizes the ideal in one pretty little package, doesn't it? Thanks for providing a key I missed! And now... back to our regular scheduled program (before we're formally accused of highjacking this thread!)... [:D]

marieToo -> RE: The Dualism of Obedience (6/20/2006 8:45:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: anthrosub quote: ORIGINAL: ladylexington quote: ORIGINAL: anthrosub I'd also like to keep the thread from taking a detour if possible. Taking a detour? I'm still trying to understand your point. At this point, I can only say never mind. The thought I had with the original post never really got off the ground. anthrosub Anthro: I understood your point exactly, and addressed it using a very good analogy. Several others here understand what you have said as well. (And believe me, it was no easy feat to understand your original post). But you seem to want to focus on those who misunderstood you by taking on an attitude with them. What gives??

anthrosub -> RE: The Dualism of Obedience (6/20/2006 9:08:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: marieToo quote: ORIGINAL: anthrosub quote: ORIGINAL: ladylexington quote: ORIGINAL: anthrosub I'd also like to keep the thread from taking a detour if possible. Taking a detour? I'm still trying to understand your point. At this point, I can only say never mind. The thought I had with the original post never really got off the ground. anthrosub Anthro: I understood your point exactly, and addressed it using a very good analogy. Several others here understand what you have said as well. (And believe me, it was no easy feat to understand your original post). But you seem to want to focus on those who misunderstood you by taking on an attitude with them. What gives?? You're right (sorry about that). It's not uncommon for topics I post to go off on various tangents and usually I get caught up in trying to manage what's being discussed. In this instance, I overlooked your's and other's posts that did show you are on the same page with my first post. So, I apologize to you and the rest. It's never easy (at least for me) to get what I'm trying to say across in such a way that there aren't a lot of misinterpretations. I can't do anything about those who have an axe to grind but for those who are clearly trying to understand (and aren't) I try to address their replies and hopefully after a few cycles things become clear. Even this reply could be misread by some of the current participants so I need to add this disclaimer. I can't say it all in a few words and often even in more than a couple replies. It's just the nature of communicating in words. Hopefully, most people keep this in mind as they read what's written. anthrosub

marieToo -> RE: The Dualism of Obedience (6/20/2006 9:28:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: anthrosub quote: ORIGINAL: marieToo quote: ORIGINAL: anthrosub quote: ORIGINAL: ladylexington quote: ORIGINAL: anthrosub I'd also like to keep the thread from taking a detour if possible. Taking a detour? I'm still trying to understand your point. At this point, I can only say never mind. The thought I had with the original post never really got off the ground. anthrosub Anthro: I understood your point exactly, and addressed it using a very good analogy. Several others here understand what you have said as well. (And believe me, it was no easy feat to understand your original post). But you seem to want to focus on those who misunderstood you by taking on an attitude with them. What gives?? You're right (sorry about that). It's not uncommon for topics I post to go off on various tangents and usually I get caught up in trying to manage what's being discussed. In this instance, I overlooked your's and other's posts that did show you are on the same page with my first post. So, I apologize to you and the rest. It's never easy (at least for me) to get what I'm trying to say across in such a way that there aren't a lot of misinterpretations. I can't do anything about those who have an axe to grind but for those who are clearly trying to understand (and aren't) I try to address their replies and hopefully after a few cycles things become clear. Even this reply could be misread by some of the current participants so I need to add this disclaimer. I can't say it all in a few words and often even in more than a couple replies. It's just the nature of communicating in words. Hopefully, most people keep this in mind as they read what's written. anthrosub Yeah, I hear ya. That does happen here. Not only will something go off on a tangent, but comments will be re-worded and twisted for you by others. I dont need an acknowledgement for my post here, or an apology. I just wanted to point out to you that there were a few who did understand, yet you seemed so focused on the ones who didn't. If you had posted this in the "ask a submissive" column, you might've had even more help with this,more understanding, and less opposition. I think what you feel is common and natural, and I know exactly what you are talking about. I also know how frustrating it is to have others misconstrue this into you just wanting to get your kink on, or topping from the bottom, or all the other crapola that gets slung around when submissives mention that they actually have needs too. (perish the thought!) Its just a matter of finding the right Domme for yourself. Maybe focus on looking for someone who is just as willing to put effort into the relationship, as you are, rather than one who is going to sit on her ass and make no effort to inspire your continued submission. Easier said than done. I know this all too well.

MisPandora -> RE: The Dualism of Obedience (6/21/2006 7:12:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subfever But what's the underlying source that motivates such a malesub? In my experience with such individuals, they thrive on being of service, of knowing that they've made me happy, and validating that they've made my life more 'livable' because they've done something to change that. Depending on the individual, in addition to the smile on my face and in return for their efforts, they get attention, affection, perhaps love, they might get bondage, they might experience a corporal bout (if they thrive on that), or if they are a personal, they may be permitted intimacy with me. Ultimately, he gains a sense of belonging, of being a cherished pet and a valued member of my household. But we're talking individuals with a submissive heart....not someone who gives into someone else's desires in order to get laid or get his rocks off in the end.

MisPandora -> RE: The Dualism of Obedience (6/21/2006 7:16:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy quote: ORIGINAL: MisPandora And herein lies the answer to the thread about why we as dominas are disappointed and/or never find what we seek. Once we have someone in service to us that truly lives to be pleasing and obedient....nothing less will ever suffice. We will be endlessly disappointed until someone else comes along who is similarly motivated. Yes, "the problem" isn't in the submissives, its in what you seek. Subs don't want and therefore won't stay with The Unpaid Labor Doctrine for very long. Getting something for nothing IS very corrupting, so its no wonder you will be "endlessly disappointed" when the slave inevitably leaves The Unpaid Labor Doctrine and you are forced to find a replacement. The "Unpaid Labor Doctrine" exists and is quite functional in relationships -- it's called devotion and being in love. It is ironic that it exists a lot in vanilla relationships. When a man loves a woman deeply, he will do anything for her, and he gets a tremendous amount of pleasure doing it. He does not share this devotion with any woman, he does not seek out women to give it to (unless he is desperately lonely); in fact, he often has to be very deeply involved to be this devoted. But once he is, he will go to the ends of the earth to put a smile on the face of the woman he loves. Then there are submissives. They claim to offer this unconditional devotion, but it always has strings attached. The femdom is expected to play those strings to get the desired effect -- submission and devotion. When she does not, she has a malcontent on her hands. Or, she is told she is not a true dominant. Many of these subs are merely fetishists; others, though, do seek a deep level of submission, which I believe is idealized love and devotion. The problem is that you cannot simply apply unconditional love and devotion to a woman and expect it to work. First, she must desire it and value it (ie, love him back just as deeply). Second, it cannot be just applied onto a relationship at the onset, or else it creates a very creepy stalker vibe. It has to be genuine and come from the heart. You don't just invent devotion of this level. Some subs seek it, and they idealize it in their head, and they want it and want to see it happen in a relationship. In all of my longterm relationships, vanilla or kinky, the dynamic of unconditional love/serving came into place when mutual love/trust was established. He would do anything for me -- anything it all -- if he knew it would bring me some pleasure or solitude. All I need to do is ask. And, it includes suffering or submitting to my sadistic desires, also. Would he do that for any woman? Hell no. Does he consider it "unpaid labor doctrine"? Of course not. He does get something back in return; shared love. Some men are wired to express love and affection through service and have a built in "desire to please" (even vanilla men). Others are on a different spectrum but find partners that fall in that same area. Those that do not believe in this kind of submission have never felt true love. You don't feel used when you devote yourself or give unconditionally -- hell no, you feel GRATITUDE for having the opportunity to please the woman you love so dearly. Is your love so bitter? On her birthday, do you feel obligated and resentful because you are expected to give a gift, or do you get excited and joyous that you have the opportunity to celebrate your love for her? For a submissive man, or a devoted man, he seeks to celebrate this love every single day. Akasha I was typing and stopped in my tracks when I saw that you'd so eloquently replied to his blathering. It's sad that folks who have never experienced this sort of thing for themselves, much less met the individual women who have lived it are the ones judging, and telling us that WE are imagining things and that all of this doesn't exist. Truly amazing. Thanks for your post, Akasha.

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