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Grey area of rape - 1/23/2013 8:36:37 PM   
Moonlightmaddnes


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Status: offline 		There was a discussion among some friends on facebook about this. Not stranger but in a dating scenario. I was a little alarmed at some of their opinions. It started with after foreplay has started and the woman changes her mind says no and he does not stop is it rape. I said as soon as it turns non consensual then yes. Then they go on about what if she does not say no but no longer wants to. There were people in this discussion that said if she is not willing then it is rape. Really? Even if she never says no or stop? I was told yes even if she does not say anything he is 100% responsible. I will probably be deleted by a few when I said I would not ever support an accusation of rape if she never said no but at one point was no longer into it but still went along. I told them that is not rape that is regretting having sex with the guy. Wow I am still ducking from the flames!

Oh my I sure hope I am not the only one who finds that ridiculous. Men are not mind readers.

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RE: Grey area of rape - 1/23/2013 8:42:11 PM   
jlf1961


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From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		Uh, the arguments you presented are not ridiculous, they are beyond that, rating right up there with out right fucked up Bullshit.

FYI, I know men are not mind readers, only women are born with that ability, and they are trained from birth to use it to lead men into such deep trouble the only logical way out is to throw ourselves in front of a bus... or taking the woman on a $15000 shopping spree.

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RE: Grey area of rape - 1/23/2013 8:45:11 PM   
Moonlightmaddnes


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Status: offline 		Well thank you! I was wondering if maybe I was wrong and this was how things are suppose to go. What scares me about this is I have a 19 year old son who has his own apartment and dates. My head is no where near in the sand so I know he has sex. According to some out there if a girl changes her mind yet does not tell him no or stop but he does not get a clue that she is no longer interested then he has just raped her.

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RE: Grey area of rape - 1/23/2013 8:46:37 PM   
jlf1961


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonlightmaddnes

Well thank you! I was wondering if maybe I was wrong and this was how things are suppose to go. What scares me about this is I have a 19 year old son who has his own apartment and dates. My head is no where near in the sand so I know he has sex. According to some out there if a girl changes her mind yet does not tell him no or stop but he does not get a clue that she is no longer interested then he has just raped her.



In essence that is true, but it is hard to prove. Most times the most the attacker gets is an assault conviction if that.

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RE: Grey area of rape - 1/23/2013 8:58:37 PM   
Moonlightmaddnes


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Status: offline 		Which sucks. In essence the law says the man has 100% responsibility to read her mind and know if she is no longer willing even if she never says no. I will confess before I met my husband I had a couple sexual encounters I did not enjoy. I was still in my late teens, never once though did I ever think well that sucked I really did not want to anyways so I can go cause all sorts of trouble for him

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RE: Grey area of rape - 1/23/2013 8:59:55 PM   
NuevaVida


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

... or taking the woman on a $15000 shopping spree.


Oh that's not nearly enough

I agree with the "Ya gotta say no" bit. Unfortunately, that doesn't always stop them.

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RE: Grey area of rape - 1/23/2013 9:04:00 PM   
DarkSteven


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Status: offline 		If the woman says yes and never says no, it is not rape. If the woman says no at any time, and the man does not stop, it is rape.

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RE: Grey area of rape - 1/23/2013 9:05:32 PM   
Moonlightmaddnes


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quote:


I agree with the "Ya gotta say no" bit. Unfortunately, that doesn't always stop them.


No it doesn't. I have never had rape in a dating relationship, but back when I lived with my mother she had a horrible habit of leaving the patio door open when she left for work in the middle of the night and some guy walked in. I never saw his face and waited a few years when I had moved in with my soon to be husband. I kept making sure they we were understanding each other and said so even if she never says no, stop or I am not into this anymore and he has no clue you think it is rape. Several said yes. wow.

< Message edited by Moonlightmaddnes -- 1/23/2013 9:06:27 PM >

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RE: Grey area of rape - 1/23/2013 9:14:36 PM   
jlf1961


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From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		Look, I have said in the past that rape should be a capital offense, eligible for the death penalty.

I have said the same for the crime of child molestation.

But then I am an extremist when it comes to sexual predators.

I have personal reasons for this stand, and a dear friend who was a victim and has spent the biggest part of the last 20 years in a mental institution since it happened.

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RE: Grey area of rape - 1/23/2013 9:20:17 PM   
theshytype


Posts: 1600
Status: offline 		I don't understand how someone can construe that as rape. You consent, change your mind, but wait to tell him you changed your mind after the fact? There are two people involved and I think he should be informed of a game change during the game.
There was a time I can recall I "changed my mind" but didn't stop him. I figure he'd be done soon enough...and he was. I consented to sex the first time and chose (my choice) to let him proceed.

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RE: Grey area of rape - 1/23/2013 9:25:41 PM   
Powergamz1


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Status: offline 		The law says no such thing. The revocation of consent must be communicated, but the other party has to make a reasonable attempt to understand and honor the withdrawal.

There may be singular cases out there, but in no place based on English Common Law, does the law put that burden on the accused.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonlightmaddnes

Which sucks. In essence the law says the man has 100% responsibility to read her mind and know if she is no longer willing even if she never says no. I will confess before I met my husband I had a couple sexual encounters I did not enjoy. I was still in my late teens, never once though did I ever think well that sucked I really did not want to anyways so I can go cause all sorts of trouble for him



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RE: Grey area of rape - 1/23/2013 9:27:49 PM   
Powergamz1


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Status: offline 		Totally different circumstances that fall under various rape by deceit laws.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonlightmaddnes



quote:


I agree with the "Ya gotta say no" bit. Unfortunately, that doesn't always stop them.


No it doesn't. I have never had rape in a dating relationship, but back when I lived with my mother she had a horrible habit of leaving the patio door open when she left for work in the middle of the night and some guy walked in. I never saw his face and waited a few years when I had moved in with my soon to be husband. I kept making sure they we were understanding each other and said so even if she never says no, stop or I am not into this anymore and he has no clue you think it is rape. Several said yes. wow.



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RE: Grey area of rape - 1/23/2013 9:39:00 PM   
theRose4U


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Status: offline 		Moon, I saw the thread you were arguing logically with a troll...to hell with flames!!

Bad sex, sex she regrets the next day ARE NOT rape
Drunk out of her mind or drugged (esp rufies) are rape even if she's saying do me do me because...mind altered CAN NOT consent
Rape doesn't have to be scary dude in the night or pervy uncle that needs his dick chopped off for kids safety...no is where the white changes to black. There aren't grey areas, she consents & has mental capacity or she doesn't...simple

Yes she can change her mind in mid fuck
No if she says nothing & "lays there to get it over" she can't scream rape
This is where drug campaigns got the idea for "just say no"
This isn't just a woman thing either, guys can down shift & say no as well. Just statistically it will happen during foreplay not mid fuck.

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RE: Grey area of rape - 1/23/2013 9:39:09 PM   
TwoHeartsBeatOne


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Status: offline 		OP, Please post links, or even one link, that supports your assertions about the law and rape.

Unless you do that, I can only conclude that you either read or heard something which you totally misunderstood, or, that you simply wrote this to gain attention, knowing how inflammatory your words are.

BTW, men, boys and girls are raped, too.

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RE: Grey area of rape - 1/23/2013 9:43:55 PM   
Moonlightmaddnes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: theRose4U

Moon, I saw the thread you were arguing logically with a troll...to hell with flames!!

Bad sex, sex she regrets the next day ARE NOT rape
Drunk out of her mind or drugged (esp rufies) are rape even if she's saying do me do me because...mind altered CAN NOT consent
Rape doesn't have to be scary dude in the night or pervy uncle that needs his dick chopped off for kids safety...no is where the white changes to black. There aren't grey areas, she consents & has mental capacity or she doesn't...simple

Yes she can change her mind in mid fuck
No if she says nothing & "lays there to get it over" she can't scream rape
This is where drug campaigns got the idea for "just say no"
This isn't just a woman thing either, guys can down shift & say no as well. Just statistically it will happen during foreplay not mid fuck.



:) I am still smoking from those flames. Dear god you would think I was defending sexual predators instead of saying if she never says no then I would not support an accusation of date rape.

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RE: Grey area of rape - 1/23/2013 10:07:42 PM   
theRose4U


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Status: offline 		I suspect its a relative of the same asshat that claims we are all doing everything wrong & is masterbating himself on how many dommes he can personally attack.


< Message edited by theRose4U -- 1/23/2013 10:08:16 PM >

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RE: Grey area of rape - 1/23/2013 10:11:25 PM   
LafayetteLady


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From: Northern New Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: theRose4U

Moon, I saw the thread you were arguing logically with a troll...to hell with flames!!

Bad sex, sex she regrets the next day ARE NOT rape
Drunk out of her mind or drugged (esp rufies) are rape even if she's saying do me do me because...mind altered CAN NOT consent
Rape doesn't have to be scary dude in the night or pervy uncle that needs his dick chopped off for kids safety...no is where the white changes to black. There aren't grey areas, she consents & has mental capacity or she doesn't...simple

Yes she can change her mind in mid fuck
No if she says nothing & "lays there to get it over" she can't scream rape
This is where drug campaigns got the idea for "just say no"
This isn't just a woman thing either, guys can down shift & say no as well. Just statistically it will happen during foreplay not mid fuck.


I agree with everything entirely except that bolded part.  Because when they are both out of their mind drunk, I don't think the guy is 100% on the hook, especially when you look at some of these college parties and spring break deals when everyone is drunk and looking for hook ups.  Then they wake up the next morning, realize they slept with someone from the nerd frat and want to cry rape.

Women need to be responsible for their actions as well.  Even if it means that one of the group (we know those young drunk girls are never alone) has to stay sober and watch the others.

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RE: Grey area of rape - 1/23/2013 10:17:10 PM   
theRose4U


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Joined: 8/22/2005
Status: offline 		While I agree on principle, the legal line of "we were both drunk but he raped me because I regret what I did" gets drawn with drunk can't consent. In texas especially I have seen the drunkin spring break fling end up ruining a guys life for being drunk & falling penis first
quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

quote:

ORIGINAL: theRose4U

Moon, I saw the thread you were arguing logically with a troll...to hell with flames!!

Bad sex, sex she regrets the next day ARE NOT rape
Drunk out of her mind or drugged (esp rufies) are rape even if she's saying do me do me because...mind altered CAN NOT consent
Rape doesn't have to be scary dude in the night or pervy uncle that needs his dick chopped off for kids safety...no is where the white changes to black. There aren't grey areas, she consents & has mental capacity or she doesn't...simple

Yes she can change her mind in mid fuck
No if she says nothing & "lays there to get it over" she can't scream rape
This is where drug campaigns got the idea for "just say no"
This isn't just a woman thing either, guys can down shift & say no as well. Just statistically it will happen during foreplay not mid fuck.


I agree with everything entirely except that bolded part.  Because when they are both out of their mind drunk, I don't think the guy is 100% on the hook, especially when you look at some of these college parties and spring break deals when everyone is drunk and looking for hook ups.  Then they wake up the next morning, realize they slept with someone from the nerd frat and want to cry rape.

Women need to be responsible for their actions as well.  Even if it means that one of the group (we know those young drunk girls are never alone) has to stay sober and watch the others.



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RE: Grey area of rape - 1/23/2013 10:26:55 PM   
Moonlightmaddnes


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Status: offline 		I have had very drunk sex before. That is how I had my oldest. ;) Oh my mother was furious and would have had him charged but the age of consent was 16 and I was 17. He was 21 so she had it in her head she could have him charged since he was a legal adult and I wasn't. Nope, it just damaged my relationship with my mother for a long time. Instead of it tearing us apart we grew closer together and in the end we married. It only took 10 years but my mother came around.

< Message edited by Moonlightmaddnes -- 1/23/2013 10:31:23 PM >

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RE: Grey area of rape - 1/23/2013 10:32:20 PM   
LafayetteLady


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From: Northern New Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: theRose4U

While I agree on principle, the legal line of "we were both drunk but he raped me because I regret what I did" gets drawn with drunk can't consent. In texas especially I have seen the drunkin spring break fling end up ruining a guys life for being drunk & falling penis first


Yea, I was in the legal field for years and some of the rape laws really make you go, "WTF?"

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