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RE: Grey area of rape - 1/23/2013 10:41:16 PM

graceadieu

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Joined: 3/20/2008
From: Maryland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
I agree with everything entirely except that bolded part. Because when they are both out of their mind drunk, I don't think the guy is 100% on the hook, especially when you look at some of these college parties and spring break deals when everyone is drunk and looking for hook ups. Then they wake up the next morning, realize they slept with someone from the nerd frat and want to cry rape.

Women need to be responsible for their actions as well. Even if it means that one of the group (we know those young drunk girls are never alone) has to stay sober and watch the others.

The trouble is that rapists will use this scenario as cover. They go out, keep relatively sober, and prey on shitfaced or even unconscious young women. Or they'll just drug the women. Then when the women go the police, the guys say "well, she came on to me, we were both drunk" blah blah blah.

I'm sure that sometimes the guys are just too drunk to understand the questionable or non-existent consent, but I think it's better for everybody to err on the side of "don't have sex with people that are blackout drunk" when dealing with people you haven't had clear negotiations with.

ETA: Also, for what it's worth.... if you get drunk and accidently run someone over, it's still homicide. If you get high and don't know what you're doing and hold a store up at gunpoint, it's still robbery. Why is rape different?

< Message edited by graceadieu -- 1/23/2013 10:44:40 PM >

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Post #: 21

RE: Grey area of rape - 1/23/2013 11:02:44 PM

ARIES83

Posts: 3648
Status: offline

I think anytime people get sexual, the whole thing
is one big grey area haha.

But as far as what is rape?
I think in the moment, people know... Sure alcohol
can blur things but your either both into it, or not...

Heres some personalised rape nonsense:
http://www.collarchat.com/m_4235772/mpage_1/tm.htm

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Post #: 22

RE: Grey area of rape - 1/23/2013 11:12:23 PM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
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OP, I'm sorry you got flamed elsewhere for your opinion on this one. I happen to agree with you. A person really does have to communicate their withdraw of consent. Without being told, how is somebody to know better?

I'm still of the opinion that calling sexual situations rape that aren't really rape (next day remorse, etc) actually have a negative effect when we have to deal with situations that really are rape. If we start going down the 'he should have known without being told' road, we're not doing ourselves any favors.

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Post #: 23

RE: Grey area of rape - 1/24/2013 12:09:45 AM

blacksword404

Posts: 2068
Joined: 1/4/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
I agree with everything entirely except that bolded part. Because when they are both out of their mind drunk, I don't think the guy is 100% on the hook, especially when you look at some of these college parties and spring break deals when everyone is drunk and looking for hook ups. Then they wake up the next morning, realize they slept with someone from the nerd frat and want to cry rape.

Women need to be responsible for their actions as well. Even if it means that one of the group (we know those young drunk girls are never alone) has to stay sober and watch the others.

The trouble is that rapists will use this scenario as cover. They go out, keep relatively sober, and prey on shitfaced or even unconscious young women. Or they'll just drug the women. Then when the women go the police, the guys say "well, she came on to me, we were both drunk" blah blah blah.

I'm sure that sometimes the guys are just too drunk to understand the questionable or non-existent consent, but I think it's better for everybody to err on the side of "don't have sex with people that are blackout drunk" when dealing with people you haven't had clear negotiations with.

ETA: Also, for what it's worth.... if you get drunk and accidently run someone over, it's still homicide. If you get high and don't know what you're doing and hold a store up at gunpoint, it's still robbery. Why is rape different?

If they are both drunk and the girl is on top is she guilty of rape since she is in the controlling position?

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Post #: 24

RE: Grey area of rape - 1/24/2013 12:25:39 AM

TAFKAA

Posts: 382
Joined: 1/5/2013
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Yes, unfortunately, feminists are stupid. Basically, their reasoning goes like this. If a woman has sex with a guy, then regrets it, she can decide POST-COITUS that it was non-consensual and therefore the guy's guilty of rape.

The tragedy is, that they're supported by a legal system which decides that if a woman blows a guy then inseminates herself with the cum he ejaculates into her mouth, HE'S liable for child support.

The judge who made that decision should've been disbarred.

(in reply to Moonlightmaddnes)

Post #: 25

RE: Grey area of rape - 1/24/2013 12:26:45 AM

TAFKAA

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quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404
If they are both drunk and the girl is on top is she guilty of rape since she is in the controlling position?

I think you'll find that only men have agency. In all situations, a woman is innocent of wrongdoing. Even if she cuts his cock off. I mean... she's entitled to, he was an asshole, right?

(in reply to blacksword404)

Post #: 26

RE: Grey area of rape - 1/24/2013 6:46:50 AM

cordeliasub

Posts: 528
Joined: 11/4/2012
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I also agree that removal of consent has to be communicated. Honestly, I kind of feel sorry for men. Remember when some colleges were wanting to make guys get signed consent for pretty much all physical contact?

I was raped at 12 by a babysitters boyfriend and molested for several years by a family friend. I understand the trauma. But I'm sorry - men are not mind readers. And yes, every false or day after regretful accusation just makes it harder for the women who ARE raped (and the men for that matter).

(in reply to TAFKAA)

Post #: 27

RE: Grey area of rape - 1/24/2013 7:03:33 AM

Moonlightmaddnes

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Yeah. Back when I was, I think I was 15 maybe 16 and I finally got around to telling a friend a long time after it happened she asked if I ever reported it. I told her no what was the point, no one believes girls and even if they do they will come up with a reason why I asked for it even though I was in my own bed at home. This was back in 88 or 89 and I remember it on the news several times how they always tore apart the victim to defend the rapist. No way did I want to go through that.

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Post #: 28

RE: Grey area of rape - 1/24/2013 7:33:37 AM

cordeliasub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonlightmaddnes

Yeah. Back when I was, I think I was 15 maybe 16 and I finally got around to telling a friend a long time after it happened she asked if I ever reported it. I told her no what was the point, no one believes girls and even if they do they will come up with a reason why I asked for it even though I was in my own bed at home. This was back in 88 or 89 and I remember it on the news several times how they always tore apart the victim to defend the rapist. No way did I want to go through that.

I'm so sorry. I was 12, and looking back I am pretty sure both the babysitter and the guy had been drinking. He came into my room. I never told anybody because I thought they would be angry with me.

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Post #: 29

RE: Grey area of rape - 1/24/2013 7:39:36 AM

hlen5

Posts: 5890
Joined: 3/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TAFKAA

The tragedy is, that they're supported by a legal system which decides that if a woman blows a guy then inseminates herself with the cum he ejaculates into her mouth, HE'S liable for child support.

The judge who made that decision should've been disbarred.

Yes the woman is a devious shit. Yes it his kid. You don't want a baby, USE A CONDOM. Don't toss that seed willy-nilly and then cry about it later.

ETA:

I agree consent HAS TO BE withdrawn for it to be considered rape. I heard on the radio yesterday it shouldn't be "No means no" but "Yes means yes". Without express consent, forget it!

< Message edited by hlen5 -- 1/24/2013 7:41:56 AM >

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Post #: 30

RE: Grey area of rape - 1/24/2013 7:42:20 AM

MariaB

Posts: 2969
Joined: 4/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu

ETA: Also, for what it's worth.... if you get drunk and accidently run someone over, it's still homicide. If you get high and don't know what you're doing and hold a store up at gunpoint, it's still robbery. Why is rape different?

Its illegal to drink and drive
Its illegal to take psychedelics
It isn't illegal to have sex when you are drunk.

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Post #: 31

RE: Grey area of rape - 1/24/2013 7:48:25 AM

hlen5

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Mmadness, and Cordelia, I'm so sorry that happened to you. I'm a survivor as well. Reporting rape has the same rates it has had since the 1970's for the same reasons of being savaged within the legal system.

Look at Stuebenville, OH. The PROSCECUTING attorney (one of the alleged rapist's Mom) discouraged the girl from pressing charges. SHE ought to be disbarred.

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Post #: 32

RE: Grey area of rape - 1/24/2013 8:13:51 AM

thishereboi

Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TwoHeartsBeatOne

OP, Please post links, or even one link, that supports your assertions about the law and rape.

Unless you do that, I can only conclude that you either read or heard something which you totally misunderstood, or, that you simply wrote this to gain attention, knowing how inflammatory your words are.

BTW, men, boys and girls are raped, too.

The OP stated that this came from a online discussion she had. A couple posts later someone said that in essence it was true. She responded to that post. Someone else came along and said it wasn't true. A few more came in and added their opinion. Now while I will agree that this is an inflammatory subject, I don't see why that should stop anyone from starting a discussion on it. It seems a bit harsh to claim she is trying to get any attention because of it. I also don't understand the last sentence. Where did anyone imply that men, boys or girls don't get raped?

To address the OP...I agree. If the women doesn't tell the guy she changed her mind, how the hell is he supposed to know it.

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Post #: 33

RE: Grey area of rape - 1/24/2013 8:18:02 AM

thishereboi

Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TAFKAA

Yes, unfortunately, feminists are stupid. Basically, their reasoning goes like this. If a woman has sex with a guy, then regrets it, she can decide POST-COITUS that it was non-consensual and therefore the guy's guilty of rape.

The tragedy is, that they're supported by a legal system which decides that if a woman blows a guy then inseminates herself with the cum he ejaculates into her mouth, HE'S liable for child support.

The judge who made that decision should've been disbarred.

I have read a lot of your posts and I just have to ask. If you think so little of women, why doesn't your profile list you as gay?

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Post #: 34

RE: Grey area of rape - 1/24/2013 8:31:13 AM

Moonlightmaddnes

Posts: 958
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Yep this was from an online discussion on a non public group. I could give you a link but you could not see it without my password. It is not law I had read or misunderstood. I worried this was general opinion since I seemed to be the odd one out on that discussion. I would hope that is not the written law!

< Message edited by Moonlightmaddnes -- 1/24/2013 8:38:24 AM >

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Post #: 35

RE: Grey area of rape - 1/24/2013 8:37:49 AM

NuevaVida

Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonlightmaddnes

Yeah. Back when I was, I think I was 15 maybe 16 and I finally got around to telling a friend a long time after it happened she asked if I ever reported it. I told her no what was the point, no one believes girls and even if they do they will come up with a reason why I asked for it even though I was in my own bed at home. This was back in 88 or 89 and I remember it on the news several times how they always tore apart the victim to defend the rapist. No way did I want to go through that.

I was on a jury in 89 for a rape case in which the victim new the defendant. The defense attorney tore her to shreds.

In the end, there simply wasn't enough evidence to prove her case beyond a reasonable doubt. But I felt badly for her.

Years later I was raped by someone I knew. There was no way I wanted to put myself through that. I didn't report it, I didn't tell my (then) husband, and I didn't tell my employer, where the man worked as a VP.

Edited to correct a word. "Out" should have been "put". Phone typing and its challenges....

< Message edited by NuevaVida -- 1/24/2013 8:46:02 AM >

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Post #: 36

RE: Grey area of rape - 1/24/2013 8:43:10 AM

Moonlightmaddnes

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Sadly I have met several women who have gone through similar experiences. They did not want to have to prove they didn't ask for it or it was consensual sex that they later regretted. Me still being a teenager thought well even if I did report it what is anyone going to do anyways. It was dark I did not see him, I have no idea what he even looked like. Then there is my mother who if she could not handle what was being told to her then we were making it up. I watched my older sister try and tell her things and my mother tell her to quit faking or when I got sick and she didn't have the money for a doctor I was faking. Yeah I am faking the wheezing and 103 fever.

So I had no reason to think I would be believed by anyone.

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RE: Grey area of rape - 1/24/2013 8:53:18 AM

TheLilSquaw

Posts: 2340
Joined: 10/24/2012
From: Middle River, MD
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OP,
If I say, "Yes!"
That doesn't mean i can't change my mind even mid-stroke and say, "No."
I can.
The moment I say, "No." That's it, if he continues or doesn't stop it is rape.
If I change my mind but don't tell him.
How the hell is he going to know that I changed my mind?
It is MY responsibility to vocalize it.
If I don't it's not rape.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Look, I have said in the past that rape should be a capital offense, eligible for the death penalty.

I have said the same for the crime of child molestation.

I happen to agree 100%.

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Post #: 38

RE: Grey area of rape - 1/24/2013 8:55:44 AM

NuevaVida

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I'm guessing the majority of rapes are not reported.

I'm a different person now. I would stand up and report if it were to ever happen again. I wasn't strong enough then, and I blamed myself for it. Now I know better, that I didn't actually "ask for it," and that beating my hands on his chest crying "no" meant he needed to stop.

The crazy thing is, he and I briefly talked about it later (we worked on the same team at work). He was clueless that he had done anything wrong, and was surprised that I was upset by it. He felt I told him to stop and he stopped. I think he forgot there was about 10 minutes and an ejaculation (his) between those points.

No witnesses, no evidence that I didn't want it, I'd have lost in court.

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Post #: 39

RE: Grey area of rape - 1/24/2013 9:05:19 AM

Moonlightmaddnes

Posts: 958
Joined: 6/4/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheLilSquaw

OP,
If I say, "Yes!"
That doesn't mean i can't change my mind even mid-stroke and say, "No."
I can.
The moment I say, "No." That's it, if he continues or doesn't stop it is rape.
If I change my mind but don't tell him.
How the hell is he going to know that I changed my mind?
It is MY responsibility to vocalize it.
If I don't it's not rape.

That is pretty much what I said and the flame throwers came out! I almost left the group over it but decided to keep my discussion limited to parenting and health instead of the social issue threads that come up. The more social issues they discuss the more I get the O.o look on my face thinking dear god you do not really believe that do you. I have thought more then once that some of the people there are starting to scare me a bit. I want to know where they are so I know to stay far, far away from them.

< Message edited by Moonlightmaddnes -- 1/24/2013 9:10:57 AM >

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