fucktoyprincess
Posts: 2337
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Zonie63
quote:
ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
quote:
ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
quote:
ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
I also strongly feel that one reason Americans have such a tough time with farm and domestic labor is because, in huge parts of this country, this was work that was historically done by mostly black slaves. And somehow, I think Americans (particularly white Americans) truly feel this type of work is beneath them (even if wages were higher).
Wow. Really? It'd never occurred to me that this might be a factor in this day and age. I'd be really intrigued to see evidence for this. (That last wasn't meant to convey a sarky tone, btw.)
In many European countries (that also had slavery but they abolished slavery much sooner), people actually take pride in manual labor and work in the service industry (France comes to mind). I have never in my life (I am American born and raised, but have traveled extensively and lived in other countries for work) seen any place that comes even close to America in the disdain that it holds for blue collar labor, particularly farm and domestic labor.
The slave thesis is just a hypothesis. It could be other things, too. But I've never encountered a society so hostile towards honest labor of certain types. Just plain sad. And when I think about what distinguishes farm and domestic labor, it is difficult not to see the connection to slavery. And I don't think that's a coincidence.
I think it is the death knell for a society that claims to be a democracy and without a rigid class system, to be this disdainful of certain types of labor. Just wrong. All labor needs to be valued.
I'm not sure that some Americans' disdain for blue collar or farm work has much to do with slavery (although I could be wrong). It may be more of a generational thing. All four of my grandparents grew up on farms, and they were mainly family farms where everyone in the family worked it with little or no outside help. None of them looked down on anyone who did manual labor. In fact, I've known some people from that generation whose parents would punish them if they said anything disparaging about working people.
I think that American attitudes on this probably changed after World War II, in the 1950s and 60s when times were much better, wealth was abundant, and opportunities were everywhere. More and more people were going to college and getting white collar jobs. TV and movies were showing people how glamorous and sophisticated city life was, while people living in rural areas were called "bumpkins," "rednecks," "hillbillies," "trash," etc. I think that this attitude reached a crescendo by the 1980s, during the time of Reagan, unbridled capitalism, with so many people entranced and dazzled by the "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous." Those who don't make it and those who might work low-wage jobs are commonly referred to as "losers" in our society.
The attitude might be summed up with Henry Hill's line from the movie Goodfellas: "For us to live any other way was nuts. Uh, to us, those goody-good people who worked shitty jobs for bum paychecks and took the subway to work every day, and worried about their bills, were dead. I mean they were suckers. They had no balls. If we wanted something we just took it. If anyone complained twice they got hit so bad, believe me, they never complained again."
Perhaps slavery might have had an indirect connection to the attitudes you're describing, but I think the influence is probably more recent than that.
Just to be clear, I am NOT referring to family farms. People who own property are not farm labor as that term is typically understood. I am talking about people who are hired to work on farms and ranches for pay, but who do not have an ownership stake in the underlying business. Any business owner, whether a farmer, doctor, plumber, etc. tends to work hard because it is their own business they are supporting and often, they do better, the harder and smarter they are willing to work.
I do agree with your observation about more recent history. But I do think part of the current mentality is rooted in attitudes from the past. When generations of people grow up constantly seeing only certain types of people in certain types of jobs, attitudes get created that take a long time to shake. If you go any large scale farming operation in the U.S. you will see a largely Hispanic workforce. Walk into any restaurant in New York city and you will see immigrant labor. So after a certain time, people who do not see themselves as that demographic ("I am white. I am American born. etc.) will not choose to see themselves in those kinds of jobs.
And just as a general comment on the overall thread:
There is also another side to this that adds another wrinkle. If you walk into many restaurants in the city, often, the waiters and bartenders will be white. But the busboys, dishwashers, prep people, etc. will all be immigrants. So it is not that white Americans don't work in the restaurant industry. They tend to work in certain roles. But the reverse of this is that an American born black person, for example, will have tremendous difficulty being hired as a waiter or bartender in many locations. There is an inherent racism and ethnocentrism in the types of jobs which are considered "appropriate" for certain types of people over others. And this gets reflected in the immigration patterns that we have, and the type of work that certain types of immigrants end up doing, but it is also reflected in what type of American will be hired for those same jobs.
Again, I feel that the issue of immigration and jobs is intertwined with many other issues in our society. And some of these issues require us taking a long and hard look at ourselves. For those who really want a world where there are jobs, this requires rethinking what honest labor is. In a world where white collar workers in finance have actually stolen money from investors, perhaps it is time to rethink what is "respectable" work and even what is "clean" work. I find it interesting that people who do not want to dirty themselves with blue collar work, often have no problem engaging in criminal activity in their white collar jobs (things like embezzlement, tax avoidance, etc.) Again, there is a built in dysfunction to the entire system. We want jobs, but only jobs that we deem "appropriate". And then we complain when jobs get outsourced to a labor pool that is less picky.
Everyone in a truly free and democratic society cannot be white collar. Everyone in such a society cannot be wealthy. But a society has to be willing to provide basics like education and healthcare in order to give people opportunities. And in addition, it has to foster a healthy attitude towards work, in general, regardless of what the work is.
People are not "better" because they sit in an office all day. And the unemployed who claim there is no work, when immigrants continue to enter the country and find work - again, this begs the question. Yes, Americans aren't finding the type of work they would like to do. But that doesn't mean there aren't jobs that are in desperate need of filling. Most studies on farm labor have shown that if you deported illegal labor you would grind that industry to a halt. And then how are the rest of us supposed to eat? Literally, if you deported illegals tomorrow, crops in fields would lie unharvested, unpicked, etc. and just rot because Americans would rather see food rot than actually work in the fields.
Again, I think this whole discussion is masking larger issues in our society that actually need attention. I am a liberal. I believe in a social safety net. I believe in supporting people in many, many ways through the thoughtful and compassionate use of collective tax dollars. But this also requires certain other components to work. And one of those is a respect for work.
_____________________________
~ ftp
|
RE: immigration reform during a job shortage - 
Profile
New Messages
No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages
Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages
Locked w/o New Messages
Post New Thread