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RE: In an effort to find some common ground. - 2/2/2013 2:03:05 PM   
Focus50


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From: Newcastle, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
What strikes me is how little the gun lobby cares about the victims of gun violence. Their "rights" are always more important than anything else.


How can you say this? The gun lobby cares more about the victims than the anti-gunners, as the gun lobby wishes them armed and capable of their own defense instead of the emotional feel good rhetoric of disarmament in the face of criminal activity. It's the anti-gunners who desire Big Brother defense and think hiding, cowering and grabbing the scissors is laudable. The more victims there are the more the anti-gunners cry tears of love as it plays into their safety above all else utopian rhetoric.


Now that's some pile of organic fertiliser...! lol

Going by the (pro) gun lobby posting at CM, they can talk 'til the cows come home about criminals, psychos, violence in foreign lands, gun specs, personal/home defense etc but the only "victim" that'll rate a mention is the responsible gun owner threatened with having their guns taken away.

But the *real* victims, like the 28 at Newport? Be lucky to find even a peripheral mention of them.... Maybe in conjunction with putting armed guards in schools etc (ie, more guns), but that'd be it.

I never cease to be entertained by the treadmill arguments pro-gunners perpetuate. That the solution to gun violence is always more guns. A simple yes/no question. If every single American (who was physically able) carried a loaded gun strapped to their belt, would America THEN be a safer place?

And would the 30,000+ annual gun deaths likely rise or fall?

Focus.

_____________________________

Never underestimate the persuasive power of stupid people in large groups. <unknown>

Your food is for eating, not torturing. <my mum> (Errm, when I was a kid)

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: In an effort to find some common ground. - 2/2/2013 2:22:24 PM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

But the *real* victims, like the 28 at Newport? Be lucky to find even a peripheral mention of them.... Maybe in conjunction with putting armed guards in schools etc (ie, more guns), but that'd be it.



They are the *real* victims, left to the criminal element people like you made a safe environment for.

And yes, if "every single American (who was physically able) carried a loaded gun strapped to their belt" you'd find a safer and more polite society in short order, the criminal element having been dispatched quite readily. As to the annualized gun deaths, the dispatching of the criminal element would definitely have an impact.


_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to Focus50)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: In an effort to find some common ground. - 2/2/2013 2:33:22 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
The crucial freedom you desire is being able to walk around without the fear of criminality being fostered upon you. So I ask you, is that possible?

In a country where guns are quite scarce and Joe Public as a rule has never even seen one let alone owned one - yes... Absolutely!!

I think for the pro-gun people in the US, that is a concept they cannot even imagine in their wildest dreams.
I'd say, at least for them, it would be their worst nightmare.

And that is possibly why they really cannot understand where we are coming from.
All they can think of is their 'right' to own/carry a firearm and in many cases, more than one.
If anyone dares to challenge that premise, all they can spout is self-defense and the 2nd.

So to claim that pro-gun owners care more for the victims is pure BS to me.
It's just another way to justify even more guns.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50
But the *real* victims, like the 28 at Newport? Be lucky to find even a peripheral mention of them.... Maybe in conjunction with putting armed guards in schools etc (ie, more guns), but that'd be it.


They are the *real* victims, left to the criminal element people like you made a safe environment for.

And yes, if "every single American (who was physically able) carried a loaded gun strapped to their belt" you'd find a safer and more polite society in short order, the criminal element having been dispatched quite readily. As to the annualized gun deaths, the dispatching of the criminal element would definitely have an impact.

Typical pro-gun rhetoric.

When did you last see the general public go round to their local gang nutters and shoot the fuckers??
I have never seen that on the news - ever!

They are always saying its the legal and responsible owners being vilified and the criminals are left free to ransack their neighbourhood. But they fail to see that these gang nutters would also have their guns taken away from them too!!



< Message edited by freedomdwarf1 -- 2/2/2013 2:38:48 PM >

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: In an effort to find some common ground. - 2/2/2013 2:43:26 PM   
Yachtie


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Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
But they fail to see that these gang nutters would also have their guns taken away from them too!!


You must believe the drug war is a blooming success and prohibition worked like a charm.


_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: In an effort to find some common ground. - 2/2/2013 2:59:06 PM   
BamaD


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They are always saying its the legal and responsible owners being vilified and the criminals are left free to ransack their neighbourhood. But they fail to see that these gang nutters would also have their guns taken away from them too!!


[/quote]
How?

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: In an effort to find some common ground. - 2/2/2013 3:21:50 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
Typical pro-gun rhetoric.
When did you last see the general public go round to their local gang nutters and shoot the fuckers??
I have never seen that on the news - ever!


You don't. Know why? Because the "general public" isn't violent and hostile.

quote:

They are always saying its the legal and responsible owners being vilified and the criminals are left free to ransack their neighbourhood. But they fail to see that these gang nutters would also have their guns taken away from them too!!


I'm sure when it all comes down to it, the gang nutters will say, "oh, no! We aren't legally allowed to carry guns!! We had better turn them in!" How, do you suppose, we are going to get the gang nutters' now-illegal guns, when the guns they have now are pretty much illegal already. As DYB would ask, what are you going to do, go door-to-door and collect?


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: In an effort to find some common ground. - 2/2/2013 3:26:08 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
How?

Dead easy!
The same way they did that in Oz and the UK and many other places...
Just surround the area and march in with a SWAT team and the local police.
Arrest every one of them unless they can justify a damned good reason not to.
Confiscate every piece of narcotics and any firearms (and any other offensive weapon) they find.

And don't say it can't be done because it can, and has been, in other countries.
Unless of course your police are too lilly-livered to confront them.

Edit to add: they still do that at random intervals in the UK where rumours start rumbling that the gangs are getting restless again.


< Message edited by freedomdwarf1 -- 2/2/2013 3:28:25 PM >

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: In an effort to find some common ground. - 2/2/2013 3:48:39 PM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
How?

Dead easy!
The same way they did that in Oz and the UK and many other places...
Just surround the area and march in with a SWAT team and the local police.
Arrest every one of them unless they can justify a damned good reason not to.
Confiscate every piece of narcotics and any firearms (and any other offensive weapon) they find.

And don't say it can't be done because it can, and has been, in other countries.
Unless of course your police are too lilly-livered to confront them.

Edit to add: they still do that at random intervals in the UK where rumours start rumbling that the gangs are getting restless again.




Sounds... Orwellian.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: In an effort to find some common ground. - 2/2/2013 3:49:52 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

The crucial freedom you desire is being able to walk around without the fear of criminality being fostered upon you.


It isn't, no. It's criminality of a particular kind - violence - and of a particular degree - my death.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Igor2003
Anyway, I sincerely doubt that my fear of having a gun turned on me is any greater than your own fear of the same. However, if such a situation should ever occur I hope that I don't end up with an epitaph that reads, "I turned in my gun like the government said. The other guy didn't, and now I'm dead."


There wouldn't be any 'however' for me - I don't even have to consider the eventuality that a gun will be turned on me. I doubt that, really, you'd have as little fear as I have about being faced with a gun-attacker, no matter how small the chance of that happening in your particular neck of the woods. If you had no fear at all, you'd not feel the need for a gun. It would make no sense to you have one, just as it doesn't me. On the other hand if you *did* have a gun, it'd be useless to you unless there was some minimum of fear - enough to motivate your thinking about it and keep you just alert enough to be ready to use it.

By way of comparison: many moons ago, when I was an avid karate-practitioner, I'd stand in bars imagining this attack or that so that I'd be ready for such an attack. Useless knowing the moves if I was caught off guard, I thought. But my only achievement, really, was to make myself unnecessarily anxious and edgy. Nobody ever did make that sudden move on me. My martial arts 'weapons' were a burden, not an asset. Quite paradoxical.

_____________________________

http://www.domme-chronicles.com


(in reply to igor2003)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: In an effort to find some common ground. - 2/2/2013 3:56:25 PM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
.
If you had no fear at all, you'd not feel the need for a gun



I don't fear fires either and I have a fire extinguisher.

Should I get rid of it? And if so, why?

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: In an effort to find some common ground. - 2/2/2013 4:01:00 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
How?

Dead easy!
The same way they did that in Oz and the UK and many other places...
Just surround the area and march in with a SWAT team and the local police.
Arrest every one of them unless they can justify a damned good reason not to.
Confiscate every piece of narcotics and any firearms (and any other offensive weapon) they find.
And don't say it can't be done because it can, and has been, in other countries.
Unless of course your police are too lilly-livered to confront them.
Edit to add: they still do that at random intervals in the UK where rumours start rumbling that the gangs are getting restless again.

Sounds... Orwellian.


Nah, that'd be if they put surveillance cameras everywhere alongside the gub'mint monitors.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: In an effort to find some common ground. - 2/2/2013 4:07:13 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Nah, that'd be if they put surveillance cameras everywhere alongside the gub'mint monitors.

Are you not aware that the UK has more cameras per capita than any other country in the world by a long margin??

In some major cities there are as many as 100 CCTV cameras 'seeing' someone at any one point in time!

That's how they traced and tracked the movements of the 7/7 bombers and provided the evidence to convict them. They are now in the US facing some other terrorist charges.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: In an effort to find some common ground. - 2/2/2013 4:13:24 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Nah, that'd be if they put surveillance cameras everywhere alongside the gub'mint monitors.

Are you not aware that the UK has more cameras per capita than any other country in the world by a long margin??
In some major cities there are as many as 100 CCTV cameras 'seeing' someone at any one point in time!
That's how they traced and tracked the movements of the 7/7 bombers and provided the evidence to convict them. They are now in the US facing some other terrorist charges.


Are you under constant video surveillance? Been a while since I read 1984, but I'm not sure there were many areas a person could be inside their domicile that wasn't under surveillance. That the case in the UK? Didn't think so.

And, since we were talking about how the "round ups" would happen in the US, it matters not how many cameras there are posted in the UK.

Interesting that the UK has the highest per capita crime in the EU, especially since there are more cameras per capita than any other country in the world.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: In an effort to find some common ground. - 2/2/2013 4:15:49 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
If you had no fear at all, you'd not feel the need for a gun

I don't fear fires either and I have a fire extinguisher.

Should I get rid of it? And if so, why?

Not the fire extinguisher, no.
The extinguisher is used to eradicate the fire so it causes far less damage.

But would you carry some extra matches and spare gasoline to help the fire along so everything burns quickly so the people can rebuild sooner?
No, of course you wouldn't - that would be stupid and irresposible.
Nobody would fight fire with fire unless they were an arsonist.

So why advocate yet more guns when the guns are causing so much violent crime and deaths?
Take the fire extinguisher example and eradicate the item causing the damage - the guns.

Simple logic in my books.

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: In an effort to find some common ground. - 2/2/2013 4:16:48 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
How?

Dead easy!
The same way they did that in Oz and the UK and many other places...
Just surround the area and march in with a SWAT team and the local police.
Arrest every one of them unless they can justify a damned good reason not to.
Confiscate every piece of narcotics and any firearms (and any other offensive weapon) they find.

And don't say it can't be done because it can, and has been, in other countries.
Unless of course your police are too lilly-livered to confront them.

Edit to add: they still do that at random intervals in the UK where rumours start rumbling that the gangs are getting restless again.


Darn pesky 4th admendment says we can't do that

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: In an effort to find some common ground. - 2/2/2013 4:23:47 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Nah, that'd be if they put surveillance cameras everywhere alongside the gub'mint monitors.

Are you not aware that the UK has more cameras per capita than any other country in the world by a long margin??
In some major cities there are as many as 100 CCTV cameras 'seeing' someone at any one point in time!
That's how they traced and tracked the movements of the 7/7 bombers and provided the evidence to convict them. They are now in the US facing some other terrorist charges.


Are you under constant video surveillance? Been a while since I read 1984, but I'm not sure there were many areas a person could be inside their domicile that wasn't under surveillance. That the case in the UK? Didn't think so.

And, since we were talking about how the "round ups" would happen in the US, it matters not how many cameras there are posted in the UK.

Interesting that the UK has the highest per capita crime in the EU, especially since there are more cameras per capita than any other country in the world.

I don't think our crime rates are a patch on those of the US - especially when it comes to deaths.

And I didn't venture anything about CCTV cameras rounding up gang nutters - that takes manpower.
But... If any escaped the cordon, they could trace where they went and also use the stills to identify them
And they could also see if/when they dumped anything en-route in their escape.
Video evidence is allowed in the courts - so no escape from that.

They have done precisely that with hundreds of rioters in our recent unrest in the cities and many have been convicted of violent offences and even many looters were prosecuted.
CCTV does have it's uses at times.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: In an effort to find some common ground. - 2/2/2013 4:28:28 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
How?

Dead easy!
The same way they did that in Oz and the UK and many other places...
Just surround the area and march in with a SWAT team and the local police.
Arrest every one of them unless they can justify a damned good reason not to.
Confiscate every piece of narcotics and any firearms (and any other offensive weapon) they find.

And don't say it can't be done because it can, and has been, in other countries.
Unless of course your police are too lilly-livered to confront them.

Edit to add: they still do that at random intervals in the UK where rumours start rumbling that the gangs are getting restless again.


Darn pesky 4th admendment says we can't do that

It's strange, at least to me, that the 4th (and the 2nd) is an amendment that cannot be amended or even abolished!!
If something can be amended, rewritten or revoked, those amendments in themselves can be subject to the same proceedure. Nothing is ever set in stone.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: In an effort to find some common ground. - 2/2/2013 4:29:36 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
If you had no fear at all, you'd not feel the need for a gun

I don't fear fires either and I have a fire extinguisher.
Should I get rid of it? And if so, why?

Not the fire extinguisher, no.
The extinguisher is used to eradicate the fire so it causes far less damage.
But would you carry some extra matches and spare gasoline to help the fire along so everything burns quickly so the people can rebuild sooner?
No, of course you wouldn't - that would be stupid and irresposible.
Nobody would fight fire with fire unless they were an arsonist.


Interesting to note, one does not have to be an arsonist to fight fire with fire.

quote:

So why advocate yet more guns when the guns are causing so much violent crime and deaths?
Take the fire extinguisher example and eradicate the item causing the damage - the guns.
Simple logic in my books.


Except, the extinguisher is the gun, and the fire is the perp.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: In an effort to find some common ground. - 2/2/2013 4:34:18 PM   
Focus50


Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

But the *real* victims, like the 28 at Newport? Be lucky to find even a peripheral mention of them.... Maybe in conjunction with putting armed guards in schools etc (ie, more guns), but that'd be it.



They are the *real* victims, left to the criminal element people like you made a safe environment for.

And yes, if "every single American (who was physically able) carried a loaded gun strapped to their belt" you'd find a safer and more polite society in short order, the criminal element having been dispatched quite readily. As to the annualized gun deaths, the dispatching of the criminal element would definitely have an impact.


A "more polite society"....?

Conjures up images of "walking around on eggshells" and avoiding eye contact with strangers etc, just in case.... But if that's your idea of "freedom" and of feeling safe, good luck with that.

And I'm not convinced average Jo Public will be doing the despatching in a confrontation with the criminally inclined, either. Looks like Desi isn't, either - what are you basing that on?

Focus.

_____________________________

Never underestimate the persuasive power of stupid people in large groups. <unknown>

Your food is for eating, not torturing. <my mum> (Errm, when I was a kid)

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: In an effort to find some common ground. - 2/2/2013 4:54:56 PM   
Focus50


Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
How?

Dead easy!
The same way they did that in Oz and the UK and many other places...
Just surround the area and march in with a SWAT team and the local police.
Arrest every one of them unless they can justify a damned good reason not to.
Confiscate every piece of narcotics and any firearms (and any other offensive weapon) they find.

And don't say it can't be done because it can, and has been, in other countries.
Unless of course your police are too lilly-livered to confront them.

Edit to add: they still do that at random intervals in the UK where rumours start rumbling that the gangs are getting restless again.


Darn pesky 4th admendment says we can't do that

Oz isn't that reliant on big brother (such as video surveillance), but yes, known trouble spots for anti-social behaviour soon attract them.

But re what the 4th amendment doesn't allow, there's ways around anything.

The Police here can't search anyone just because, not even with a strong hunch. That said, when they conduct blitzes on night-spots or public transport etc, there's nothing preventing them taking their drug sniffer dogs along with them. And yes, they can and do use a lot of discretion on circumstances.

Not saying your 4th amendment isn't ironclad; it's more that you are inclined to talk in absolutes....

Focus.

_____________________________

Never underestimate the persuasive power of stupid people in large groups. <unknown>

Your food is for eating, not torturing. <my mum> (Errm, when I was a kid)

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 120
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