RE: Israeli Settlements Violate Fourth Geneva Convention (Full Version)

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DomKen -> RE: Israeli Settlements Violate Fourth Geneva Convention (2/4/2013 2:59:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
If you commit as many crimes as the nasty terrorist State of Israel does, expect to be called to account. Who else has apartheid, ethnic cleansing, multiple gross violations of the Geneva Conventions (ie war crimes) targeted assassinations, State-organised abduction, torture and murder of children, regular massacres and atrocities etc all happening as part of official State policy?

China
Turkey
Congo
North Korea

Funny how some people, who totally are not antisemites of the worst sort, only care about one single place where people are being mistreated by their government.

Does China have apartheid? Or Turkey? Or the Congo? Or even North Korea. Not that I have heard of.

Then you aren't paying attention.

quote:

I do applaud your realism in putting North Korea and Israel in the same category. Should I conclude that you have finally realised that the rest of the world is correct to do the same?

No. You asked what countries did certain things and I provided a list. Israel does not fit in that list.

quote:

And finally, please refrain from the sad tired ántisemtite' BS. Apologists for Israeli apartheid do not possess the right to smear their opponents as racists - it merely advertises their own ignorance and hypocrisy.

You make outrageous claims that anyone with a passing knowledge of the world knows to be untrue. What possible conclusion should be drawn from that?

quote:

What is not to condemn about a State - Israel - that practices apartheid, ethnic cleansing, war crimes, child abduction torture and murder (to list just a few matters, there are lots more) as part of official State policy?

Israel does not practice apartheid. Arab citizens of Israel have full rights. Isrel does not practice ethnic cleansing. If they wanted to empty the territories they could have long finished the deed and in reality have evacuated from a large section of the territories and given the palestinian's self rule to most of the rest. As to the rest your claims are exagerations and/or simply the way war works.

As I noted above your outrageous lies leave only a single possible conclusion.




SadistDave -> RE: Israeli Settlements Violate Fourth Geneva Convention (2/4/2013 3:13:02 AM)

- I have corrected that to read hundreds of millions. Are you really the sort of idiot that thinks giving your enemy less money is somehow better? If I point a gun at you and ask you for bullets, will you be less dead if you only give me one to shoot you with?

- Saudi, Kuwait, you can explain what you think makes them relevant to the topic at hand. I would consider them "good business partners", but if you believe they are "friends", I suggest you attempt to prove it since you brought them up. You might also explain what you believe their positions on Israel are, because that is very muchg a part of this conversation if they have any relevance at all.

- If you believe Egypt is a friend to America, you really haven't been payiong attention, have you?

-
quote:

They do, though, have a tendency to fuck the US over when it suits them too.
Citation? Keep in mind I probably have a much different idea of what "fucked over" means.

- America has not benefited from it's current postion of sending money to Palestine at all. We would benefit by having that money to spend in ways that are beneficial; to America.

- Mysteriously, Palestine was never even recognized by the U.N. as a country. As a nation they do not exist. That would be problematic when discussing their borders in any meaningful way. It always struck me as odd that the U.N. would try to assign borders to people they do not recognize as a an actual nation.

-SD-




tweakabelle -> RE: Israeli Settlements Violate Fourth Geneva Convention (2/4/2013 3:52:35 AM)

quote:


quote:

And finally, please refrain from the sad tired ántisemtite' BS. Apologists for Israeli apartheid do not possess the right to smear their opponents as racists - it merely advertises their own ignorance and hypocrisy.


You make outrageous claims that anyone with a passing knowledge of the world knows to be untrue. What possible conclusion should be drawn from that?

quote:

What is not to condemn about a State - Israel - that practices apartheid, ethnic cleansing, war crimes, child abduction torture and murder (to list just a few matters, there are lots more) as part of official State policy?


Israel does not practice apartheid. Arab citizens of Israel have full rights. Isrel does not practice ethnic cleansing. If they wanted to empty the territories they could have long finished the deed and in reality have evacuated from a large section of the territories and given the palestinian's self rule to most of the rest. As to the rest your claims are exagerations and/or simply the way war works.



According to that well know authority on apartheid, the African National Congress (ANC), Israel does practice apartheid. Their experience of South African apartheid gives them a lot more credibility than the self serving self interested claims of Zionists and their camp followers.
Here is an excerpt from an article describing the reactions of Veteran African Congress members after visiting the Palestinian Occupied Territories.

"Veterans of the anti-apartheid struggle said last night that the restrictions endured by Palestinians in the Israeli-occupied territories was in some respects worse than that imposed on the black majority under white rule in South Africa.

Members of a 23-strong human-rights team of prominent South Africans cited the impact of the Israeli military’s separation barrier, checkpoints, the permit system for Palestinian travel, and the extent to which Palestinians are barred from using roads in the West Bank.

After a five-day visit to Israel and the Occupied Territories, some delegates expressed shock and dismay at conditions in the Israeli-controlled heart of Hebron. Uniquely among West Bank cities, 800 settlers now live there and segregation has seen the closure of nearly 3,000 Palestinian businesses and housing units. Palestinian cars (and in some sections pedestrians) are prohibited from using the once busy streets.

“Even with the system of permits, even with the limits of movement to South Africa, we never had as much restriction on movement as I see for the people here,” said an ANC parliamentarian, Nozizwe Madlala-Routledge of the West Bank. “There are areas in which people would live their whole lifetime without visiting because it’s impossible
".
http://dissidentvoice.org/2010/03/israel-and-apartheid-is-it-a-fair-comparison/


This quote from the virulent supporter of Apartheid and prime minister of South Africa, Hendrik Verwoerd really ought to settle the matter. He noted in 1961 that Jews “took Israel from the Arabs after the Arabs had lived there for a thousand years. In that I agree with them, Israel, like South Africa, is an apartheid state.”
“Israel and South Africa: A Natural Alliance,” by Robert B. Ashmore, The Link, October-November 1988, Volume 21, Issue 4. (my bold)


So both proponents and opponents of South African apartheid (in all its horrors) agree unequivocally that the Israeli system is an apartheid system too.


You can also look up any of the innumerable reports from independent media or NGOs confirming Israeli apartheid. Here's a few to just to get you started.
Here's the UN on the subject: http://mondoweiss.net/2012/05/un-committee-israeli-system-tantamount-to-apartheid.html
Here's a BBC report http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6390755.stm
Here's NGOs: http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/ngos_and_ngo_activists_collaborate_on_israel_apartheid_week_
Here's a finding of apartheid on water rights; http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/amnesty_s_water_report_israel_apartheid_allegations

There is another mountain of supporting evidence from all quarters (including Israeli sources) to confirm the accuracy of the charge that Israel practices apartheid on the West Bank.

What other term is available to describe the system on the West Bank whereby there are different political legal and land rights for Israelis and Palestinians, where Palestinians enjoy 25% the water that Israeli colonists get, where there are separate educational, legal and political systems and entitlements operating in the same territory and demarcated only on the basis of race? Where there are Jewish only settlements/colonies and Jewish only roads? Where one person gets a vote and another doesn't - based entirely on race. Where one person is automatically a citizen based on race and the indigenous population is denied citizenship - again based entirely on race. i could go on and on but you get the picture.

There is really no alternative but to describe the system that Israel has instigated in the West Bank as apartheid - one of the most evil systems of theft and violence ever imagined into being.

It is apartheid. There is no other way of describing it. For anyone to deny this reality for reasons as inconsequential of political convenience and expediancy cannot alter that. It does say an awful lot about the special treatment Israeli apologists are insisting on for one people - Israelis - at the direct abuse dispossession and exploitation of another - Palestinians. If that isn't racist then the term has no meaning.

Defending Israel means defending Israeli apartheid. Defending apartheid means that a person doesn't have a clue what racism is or doesn't care. Either way defending Israeli apartheid means that one automatically loses any moral right to describe Israel's innumerable critics as 'racists'.

To engage in such behaviour is ignorant contemptible and utterly utterly irreducibly racist.




Powergamz1 -> RE: Israeli Settlements Violate Fourth Geneva Convention (2/4/2013 4:43:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistDave

-<SNIP>
- Saudi, Kuwait, you can explain what you think makes them relevant to the topic at hand. I would consider them "good business partners", but if you believe they are "friends", I suggest you attempt to prove it since you brought them up. You might also explain what you believe their positions on Israel are, because that is very muchg a part of this conversation if they have any relevance at all.<SNIP>
-SD-



If you truly don't understand what role the khaliji play in all of this, you probably shouldn't be surprised when not everyone is impressed with your pontification about the rest of it.




WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: Israeli Settlements Violate Fourth Geneva Convention (2/4/2013 5:11:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh
gee[sic] guess yer[sic] apology/justification message over a yr[sic] ago for attackin'[sic] me after we were briefly a debatin'[sic] da[sic] same topic is now void? [:D]

I have kindly omitted pointing out all the grammatical errors in your post.

Your prose is incomprehensible.

I have no recall of ever apologising to you or any one else over any comment I have made on this issue ever. It is mischevious and misleading (to put it nicely) of you to suggest I have. Such tactics are of course straight out of the hasbara training manual.[/link]

So, I have no idea what you are rabbiting on about and even less interest.

If my writin' is "incomprehensible" (whoa such a big ole word there darlin') den why da ya keep replyin' ta me? lol

Now cuze i like israel an' dare ta disagree ya say i'm some sorta big ole trained propagandist? gimme a break, are ya real0nes daughter or sumfin? [:D]

yup knew ya would deny dat ya sent a pm ta me after ya went crazy on da forum cuze i posted a link ta da jerusalem post. for da record i waz friendly ta ya in my answer. shouldn't have been.



quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Israel had a clear choice between expanding its colonies/settlements and peace. It chose expanding the colonies/settlements as we all know. By explicitly rejecting peace, Israel is inescapably morally responsible for every subsequent death, injury and incident in the ongoing conflict.

yup a handy way ta avoid attributin' any blame ta yer side, jus' evil ole israel. lol




vincentML -> RE: Israeli Settlements Violate Fourth Geneva Convention (2/4/2013 9:54:56 AM)

quote:

Israel does not practice apartheid. Arab citizens of Israel have full rights. Isrel does not practice ethnic cleansing. If they wanted to empty the territories they could have long finished the deed and in reality have evacuated from a large section of the territories and given the palestinian's self rule to most of the rest. As to the rest your claims are exagerations and/or simply the way war works.

@DomKen

They do not practice it because they are accomplished at it. Why do you talk about Arab citizens of Israel when the discussion is about Palestinians on land designated by the UN for Palestinians?

They have not evacuated from a large section of the "territories." They have settlements thoughout and are adding more. And territories? How presumptuous of you!! Arafat rightly walked away from the Camp David talks citing cantonization of Palestinian land.






thursdays -> RE: Israeli Settlements Violate Fourth Geneva Convention (2/4/2013 10:23:38 AM)

[ED for pointlessness]




DomKen -> RE: Israeli Settlements Violate Fourth Geneva Convention (2/4/2013 12:03:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Israel does not practice apartheid. Arab citizens of Israel have full rights. Isrel does not practice ethnic cleansing. If they wanted to empty the territories they could have long finished the deed and in reality have evacuated from a large section of the territories and given the palestinian's self rule to most of the rest. As to the rest your claims are exagerations and/or simply the way war works.

@DomKen

They do not practice it because they are accomplished at it. Why do you talk about Arab citizens of Israel when the discussion is about Palestinians on land designated by the UN for Palestinians?

Because apartheid has a meaning and part of that meaning is the denial of citizen's political rights.

quote:

They have not evacuated from a large section of the "territories." They have settlements thoughout and are adding more. And territories? How presumptuous of you!! Arafat rightly walked away from the Camp David talks citing cantonization of Palestinian land.

Maybe you've never heard of Gaza?




DomKen -> RE: Israeli Settlements Violate Fourth Geneva Convention (2/4/2013 12:08:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:


quote:

And finally, please refrain from the sad tired ántisemtite' BS. Apologists for Israeli apartheid do not possess the right to smear their opponents as racists - it merely advertises their own ignorance and hypocrisy.


You make outrageous claims that anyone with a passing knowledge of the world knows to be untrue. What possible conclusion should be drawn from that?

quote:

What is not to condemn about a State - Israel - that practices apartheid, ethnic cleansing, war crimes, child abduction torture and murder (to list just a few matters, there are lots more) as part of official State policy?


Israel does not practice apartheid. Arab citizens of Israel have full rights. Isrel does not practice ethnic cleansing. If they wanted to empty the territories they could have long finished the deed and in reality have evacuated from a large section of the territories and given the palestinian's self rule to most of the rest. As to the rest your claims are exagerations and/or simply the way war works.



According to that well know authority on apartheid, the African National Congress (ANC), Israel does practice apartheid. Their experience of South African apartheid gives them a lot more credibility than the self serving self interested claims of Zionists and their camp followers.
Here is an excerpt from an article describing the reactions of Veteran African Congress members after visiting the Palestinian Occupied Territories.

"Veterans of the anti-apartheid struggle said last night that the restrictions endured by Palestinians in the Israeli-occupied territories was in some respects worse than that imposed on the black majority under white rule in South Africa.

http://dissidentvoice.org/2010/03/israel-and-apartheid-is-it-a-fair-comparison/

An unnamed source is not a valid source for this sort of claim

quote:

This quote from the virulent supporter of Apartheid and prime minister of South Africa, Hendrik Verwoerd really ought to settle the matter. He noted in 1961 that Jews “took Israel from the Arabs after the Arabs had lived there for a thousand years. In that I agree with them, Israel, like South Africa, is an apartheid state.”
“Israel and South Africa: A Natural Alliance,” by Robert B. Ashmore, The Link, October-November 1988, Volume 21, Issue 4. (my bold)

A statement from before Israel occupied the territories so clearly cannot be referencing the territories and as I've pointed out Arabs living inside Israel have full rights so clearly the comparison is bogus.

Also for those paying attention notice how apartheid is thrown about willy nilly. Sometimes its inside the territories and sometimes its not.




Politesub53 -> RE: Israeli Settlements Violate Fourth Geneva Convention (2/4/2013 3:16:48 PM)

Ethnic cleansing though, is clearly taking place. Even the Israeli media talks about it. It`s a disgusting practice that needs to be halted.

http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/5156-israeli-newspaper-accuses-army-of-qethnic-cleansingq




DomKen -> RE: Israeli Settlements Violate Fourth Geneva Convention (2/4/2013 3:49:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Ethnic cleansing though, is clearly taking place. Even the Israeli media talks about it. It`s a disgusting practice that needs to be halted.

http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/5156-israeli-newspaper-accuses-army-of-qethnic-cleansingq

Yeah it's pretty bad. I'll start worrying about it once it is safe to go to pizza parlours everywhere in Israel.




Politesub53 -> RE: Israeli Settlements Violate Fourth Geneva Convention (2/4/2013 3:51:48 PM)

Denying a fact doesnt alter it Ken.




vincentML -> RE: Israeli Settlements Violate Fourth Geneva Convention (2/4/2013 3:57:06 PM)

quote:

Because apartheid has a meaning and part of that meaning is the denial of citizen's political rights.

"Synonyms: separation, isolation, exclusion, setting apart, apartheid, seclusion, discrimination, ghettoization." Exactly what is happening in the West Bank under the regime of the Israeli Occupation and Settlement.

No denial of citizen's political rights in Israel?
Israel has ordered the word Nakba to be removed from Israeli Arab textbooks. The term was introduced in books for use in Arab schools in 2007 when the Education Ministry was run by Yuli Tamir of the Labour party. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu justified the ban by saying that the term was "propaganda against Israel."[12] SOURCE

Nakba as you may know is the Palestinian word for catastrophe that befell them in 1947-1948:

The intent of Plan Dalet is subject to much controversy, with historians on one side asserting that it was entirely defensive, while others assert that the plan aimed at an ethnic cleansing, which from the start was an integral part of a carefully planned strategy.

The implementation of the plan in the months following a decisive meeting of 10 March 1948 at the The Red House, the headquarters of the Hagana in northern Tel Aviv, saw more than half of Palestine's native population, nearly 800,000 people, uprooted, 531 villages destroyed, and eleven urban neighbourhoods emptied.
SOURCE

Unsurprisingly ben Gurion and the Hagana denied their intent was ethnic cleansing. However, Israel refuses to this day to allow the return of the 800,000 and the recovery of their property. History repeats itself in a rather ironic fashion, it seems.




DomKen -> RE: Israeli Settlements Violate Fourth Geneva Convention (2/4/2013 4:35:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Denying a fact doesnt alter it Ken.

I didn't deny anything. I just am more concerned with people trying to kill each other than some people losing some grazing land.




DomKen -> RE: Israeli Settlements Violate Fourth Geneva Convention (2/4/2013 4:44:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Because apartheid has a meaning and part of that meaning is the denial of citizen's political rights.

"Synonyms: separation, isolation, exclusion, setting apart, apartheid, seclusion, discrimination, ghettoization." Exactly what is happening in the West Bank under the regime of the Israeli Occupation and Settlement.

No denial of citizen's political rights in Israel?
Israel has ordered the word Nakba to be removed from Israeli Arab textbooks. The term was introduced in books for use in Arab schools in 2007 when the Education Ministry was run by Yuli Tamir of the Labour party. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu justified the ban by saying that the term was "propaganda against Israel."[12] SOURCE

Removing a word is not denial of political rights. I can't say it is the best thing ever but it is a long way from apartheid.

quote:

The intent of Plan Dalet is subject to much controversy, with historians on one side asserting that it was entirely defensive, while others assert that the plan aimed at an ethnic cleansing, which from the start was an integral part of a carefully planned strategy.

The implementation of the plan in the months following a decisive meeting of 10 March 1948 at the The Red House, the headquarters of the Hagana in northern Tel Aviv, saw more than half of Palestine's native population, nearly 800,000 people, uprooted, 531 villages destroyed, and eleven urban neighbourhoods emptied.
SOURCE

Unsurprisingly ben Gurion and the Hagana denied their intent was ethnic cleansing. However, Israel refuses to this day to allow the return of the 800,000 and the recovery of their property. History repeats itself in a rather ironic fashion, it seems.


Are you even aware that many more jews were expelled and their property stolen by the arab regimes in the same time period? For instance Egypt once had a thriving jewish community with many ancient synagogues. Now at most a couple of dozen jews remain in the whole nation.

Until people on the pro palestinian side admit and own the fact that the arab side did much worse things to their jewish citizens and have never even pretended to want to make up for those expulsions, murders and thefts I see no reason the Israelis should worry much about the so called refugees (most of whom fled due to their own propoganda not the action of the jews).

Seems to me that the best solution would be for those regimes that stole jews property should use it to resettle the arabs. You do not see the Israelis letting their cousins languish in squalor in an attempt to score political points by feeding on the low information Westerners who can be suckered because they have no idea of the actual history.




WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: Israeli Settlements Violate Fourth Geneva Convention (2/4/2013 6:14:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Seems to me that the best solution would be for those regimes that stole jews property should use it to resettle the arabs. You do not see the Israelis letting their cousins languish in squalor in an attempt to score political points by feeding on the low information Westerners who can be suckered because they have no idea of the actual history.

yup.




tweakabelle -> RE: Israeli Settlements Violate Fourth Geneva Convention (2/5/2013 12:27:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Ethnic cleansing though, is clearly taking place. Even the Israeli media talks about it. It`s a disgusting practice that needs to be halted.

http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/5156-israeli-newspaper-accuses-army-of-qethnic-cleansingq

Yeah it's pretty bad. I'll start worrying about it once it is safe to go to pizza parlours everywhere in Israel.

This kind of arrogant contempt seems to be an exclusive preserve of Zionists.

The notion that ethnic cleansing is not as important as eating a pizza might raise smiles among Zionists. The rest of us interpret it as an accurate statement of just how little value Palestinian lives carry with Israel and its ever dwindling bunch of racist supporters.

Here's another statement of the same from an Israeli soldier in the doco-movie "Checkpoint":
"Animals. Animals. Like the Discovery Channel. All of Ramallah is a jungle. There are monkeys, dogs, gorillas. The problem is that the animals are locked, they can't come out. We're humans, they're animals. They aren't humans, we are... [on being told by fellow soldier that he is being filmed] I don't care what people think. The chief of staff can see it for all I care."
"Checkpoint" a film by Yoav Shamir's at 5.00"

Not just idle talk either. Remember that the IDF has killed almost 1,500 children since 2000. That's an average of roughly one dead child every three days over 12 years.




tweakabelle -> RE: Israeli Settlements Violate Fourth Geneva Convention (2/5/2013 12:37:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Denying a fact doesnt alter it Ken.

I didn't deny anything.

It appearsDomKen cannot remember the nonsense he invented just a few posts previously. From DomKen's post #41:
"Israel does not practice apartheid. Arab citizens of Israel have full rights. Israel does not practice ethnic cleansing."

That is by any account a specific denial that "apartheid"and "ethnic cleansing" are practiced by Israel. At the barest minimum one of your claims must be false.

It ought to come as no surprise to anyone that people who invent facts and claims to suit their Zionist sympathies tie themselves up in knots with their own words.

It is also worth pointing out that unlike my assertions which have all been supported by respected multiple independent international sources, not a single one of Dk's denials has been supported by any evidence or citation credible or otherwise.




Politesub53 -> RE: Israeli Settlements Violate Fourth Geneva Convention (2/5/2013 1:48:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I didn't deny anything.


Then you need to re-read your posts on ethnic cleansing.

If you think whats happening is a denial of grazing land then you are terribly misinformed.






vincentML -> RE: Israeli Settlements Violate Fourth Geneva Convention (2/5/2013 4:50:12 AM)

quote:

Are you even aware that many more jews were expelled and their property stolen by the arab regimes in the same time period? For instance Egypt once had a thriving jewish community with many ancient synagogues. Now at most a couple of dozen jews remain in the whole nation.

@DomKen

Can you document this? Or are you just inventing shit as you go along?




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