RE: Submissive in sexless marriage (Full Version)

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thetammyjo -> RE: Submissive in sexless marriage (6/22/2006 9:44:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

No disrespect intended Knight. But that may be easy to say when you have 3 available women to meet your sexual needs. How would you feel in a *monogamous* marriage, resigning yourself to never having sex again....oh.....or ANY kind of affection for that matter. Suck it up and masturbate for the rest of your life? Maybe wrap your arms around yourself? Kiss your own hand and pretend its your spouse? People in marriages need affections, bonding and intimacy of a physical nature.

Furthermore your example of women complaining that men want sex, held up against this women who was in a sexless marriage complaining about not getting sex is comparing apples to oranges. You are taking a generalization of "women complaining about men wanting sex" and holding one person in particular responsible for that, in implying that she complains that shes not getting it from her husband. That was really out there.


No Disrespect Recieved... You seem to miss the point of the post. First.... A person makes a choice to stay or leave such a relationship. I don't have much use for those that make the choice to stay, but they whine and cry about how hard it is SUCK IT UP or leave.



You have to know you have the ability to make a choice before you can make one.

You have to be able to cover out that choice when you've made it.

Not everyone has had the same upbringing, education, or supportive networks that some of us do. They may not know they have other options and they may not have the means to carry them out.

Think that's stupid and adults should know better? How do aduls know better? How did you learn you had other options? How do you go about becoming able to carry out your choices?



Reflectivesoul -> RE: Submissive in sexless marriage (6/22/2006 9:44:43 AM)

incognito,
 
I have no problems answering your questions *smiles* gimme a minute to make a pot of coffee and I'll be right back... ( I wanted to post so that you knew I wasnt trying to ignore you or anything so anyhow brb )



thetammyjo -> RE: Submissive in sexless marriage (6/22/2006 9:49:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

If not thinking of your needs first, at least thinking of them with equal importance. What may be upsetting some here is the feeling of "okay, some of you have explained your conundrum, here's the key to getting out of it", and the response appears to be "no thanks, I just want/need to 'complain' about it". I don't mean that to be insulting, honestly.

Of course, the "complainers" don't see it as such, to them it's a matter of opening up their hearts to air out wounds they've recieved. Here we have two groups of people (yes, a vast generalization), they see things differently, and I feel it unlikely that such a divide will ever be breached, much less on the boards here.




The middle ground is realizing that getting from one place (complaining) to another (doing to end the situation) is not a one step move. It is multiple small moves.

Someone "complaining" or "sharing" (pick the word you like) here is likely on step 2 or 3. The first step was admiting to themselves that something was wrong and needed to change.



Reflectivesoul -> RE: Submissive in sexless marriage (6/22/2006 9:51:10 AM)

<back>
 
Ok first I wanted to address this then I'll move along...
 
quote:

How do aduls know better? How did you learn you had other options? How do you go about becoming able to carry out your choices? 


Answer: by being responsible for your own actions, being accountable for your own actions, did I mention being responsible for yourself?



thetammyjo -> RE: Submissive in sexless marriage (6/22/2006 10:02:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reflectivesoul

I love the abusers part too.... abusers (most of them ) can only abuse you if YOU allow it. That is YOU making a conscious choice to allow that person to have an effect on YOUR emotional stability. How you choose to deal with people is your own responsibility, why people have such a problem with this I dont know.




This part really annoys me.

So by the above logic the fact that an adult man pushed me to the ground when I was two and raped me is my fault for allowing to abuse me? His continued comments, trapping me in rooms, and telling lies about me so my brothers and sisters turned from my parents when they tried to remove the man from having contact with me is my fault?

Or are there double standards for abusers when their is an age different? What about a power, authority, economic or other differences?

Skilled abusers continue to abuse because they can manipulate not only their target but others around them.

I'm so sick of people excusing abusers -- she decided to stay, she dressed that way, she walked down that street, he had that look on his face, he flaunted his opinion. The other person made a choice to act against someone else.

As for basing feelings on past encounters... that is only part of what causes feelings and reactions now.

You have feeings, you just do, the choices you make from those feelings can become a matter of self-control.



thetammyjo -> RE: Submissive in sexless marriage (6/22/2006 10:04:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reflectivesoul

<back>

Ok first I wanted to address this then I'll move along...

quote:

How do aduls know better? How did you learn you had other options? How do you go about becoming able to carry out your choices?


Answer: by being responsible for your own actions, being accountable for your own actions, did I mention being responsible for yourself?


You were just magically born with the abilty to be responsible?



MrDiscipline44 -> RE: Submissive in sexless marriage (6/22/2006 10:09:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

That initial feeling though comes from your gut, your heart and you past experiences in reaction to what is happening right now. Unless you live like a hermit that means other people and the things around you are having an impact on your emotions.
Not true, people can stop letting what others do effect them or not let it effect them in a negative way.

quote:

In fact, abusers, really skilled abusers, know this, know how much we don't want to think we are out of control and will purposely say and do things to get us to feel certain ways then turn around and claim "its your own fault for feeling that way."
As do the perpetual victims. They always blame someone else for what happens to them and never see that it's their own choices that put them in the situations they are in.

quote:

I am not saying that anyone in this thread is an abuser. I am pointing out that this idea to place all the responsibility on one person is very common for abusers to do. It is how they manage to continue the abuse especially when its another adult.
Victim and abuser alike do this. Not just abusers. People have to take responsibility for what they do. Thats not all the responsibility. Thats what RS has been saying and keeps saying.



sskitten -> RE: Submissive in sexless marriage (6/22/2006 10:09:27 AM)

RS, granted, you did not bash or call names.  And believe me anyone reading this thread is fully aware that:
 
quote:

Reflectivesoul

All *I* have done is point out that everyone is responsible for their own feelings, no one else is...


Back on page 7 you said for the first time of many:
 
quote:

The women that have been in this situation ( besides myself because yes I was there too ) keep saying one thing over and over, that the men in their lives "made them feel" unloved, unwanted, uncared for.... someone else can NOT "make" you feel anything. Your emotions are yours and yours alone to deal with and to fix. To lay that blame on someone else is not right nor fair. The men in this situation cant be blamed that they are making someone else feel anything.
 
I was puzzled as to why you said this in the first place and then began to insist it over and over and over again.  I think it was valid to make the point once or twice or maybe even three times but I cannot see what was gained by making the point ad nauseum.  At the point of endless repetition of your assertion is when it began to seem, to some, that you were ganging up on someone because you just kept pointing the finger at her, and the more you pointed the more upset she got and the more you seemed to gloat.
 
I spent a LOT of time today going back to try to find just where all this supposed blame was cast by those on this thread who have expressed pain.  Here is where I guess you first found it, on page 3 (in red).  But look what else can be found in the same post (in black):
 
quote:

For whatever it's worth - I do feel that my husband loved me - AS much as he could. Unfortunately, after a few years, that didn't do enough for me to stop me from trying to kill myself because his lack of attention made me so depressed. So, in a practical sense, his love didn't "work for me".

As far as the "why" he paid me not enough attention sexually - he's dead now (he died of bone cancer in February) - and I still don't know why. I wasn't: Overwieght, unattractive, a bitch, a nag, etc. I was the same person he married when he stopped having sex with me. I've got no clue - although his being asexual makes some sense to me (maybe he was "faking" liking sex the first 5 years we were married, for my sake).Who knows? I don't.

I've concluded it just doesn't matter when one is on the verge of jumping off a bridge or almost going insane trying to save something that doesn't, in reality, exist. She needs to save herself - she is, ultimatley, responsible for herself and if you can help her - I'd try to do that. - Susan

 
She "gets" it about responsibility.  She got it before you said so.  Yes, she used the word "made" in relation to her feelings.  And in later posts, when she said (for instance) that she did not go into the marriage feeling suicidal, probably some blame was implied in that or stated.  But I did not hear this over and over again as you seem to have.  I mostly heard you pointing it out over and over again.  Yes, she is still working through her pain and her anger.  But what I mostly heard was Susan reaching out to help another in pain, and speaking about how she had tried to cope with her own pain over the years.
 
So after awhile when you kept saying the same thing over and over again, I just could not understand why.  I could totally understand why Susan lost her cool.  It seemed to me you were needling her, after a point.  Why else continue?  Just because you refrained from name-calling does not mean you weren't badgering her.
 
I suspect Incognito sighed after your long first morning post not because she thought your remarks were directed toward her but because what can *anyone* say at this point in response to your posts on this thread except to sigh? 
 
In contrast, I think what KofM had to say this morning was more useful.  I could not understand last night the utility of his "suck it up" statements.  I better understand his point today with his additional explanation.  Your posts are not advancing the discussion; they are spinning it in a tiresome circle and the only thing you accomplished was to drive away someone who had come here to help another.
 
So now you and some of the others are laughing and awarding each other stickers.  Whoopee for you.  If someone is handing out stickers that say "Sigh," please may I have one too?
 
[edited to add:  I wrote my post while Incognito was writing hers and while RS was responding to tell her story (just below my post).  So now I am giving a sigh of relief that the RS's share of the thread seems to be moving in a productive direction again.]



Reflectivesoul -> RE: Submissive in sexless marriage (6/22/2006 10:10:00 AM)

quote:

<snip> But, changing the subject for a moment if I may, many posts back you had made mention that no one asked how you made your sexless relationship last for six years (you're so young......what age were you then?).  More important to me and my situation is I would like to know why (if you don't mind sharing) it did not last and did the sexlessness have anything to do with your breakup?  Also, something I personally have a problem with, if you were the one to make the decision to leave, how did you handle that?  How did it make you feel?  How did you handle how it made you feel? <end snip>


I was 18 when I got involved with my ex.
Why it did not last did not have to do with the sexlessness of the situation. As a matter of fact he is still a very very very big part of my life and always will be. He wanted better for me than what we had. He broke things off with me. I would have stayed with him for an eternity and then some if the decision had been mine. We didnt always have a sexless relationship, it just kind of ended up that way. He has not had a real good home life and was raised in a lot of tourmoil, his father cheated on his mother, his mother complained to him and he bore the brunt of most of her anger and unforunately still does. He's a good man, would go to the ends of the earth to support me in most anything I want to do. Why he broke it off is because he found that after 6 years he felt like he was holding me back from experiencing my youth. There is a pretty large age gap between himself and myself. He felt that even though the relationship worked that he was keeping me from enjoying aspects of life that he enjoyed when he was young.
 
I fought that tooth and nail because I have gone through so much on my own already I dont think, react, play, or anything like most people my age.
 
In the beginning I had a lot of the anger, mistrust, and negative feelings that have been expressed in the thread so far. I am not immune to feeling I promise, but this man is one I had placed my future with. He overall was who I wanted and who I needed. I felt horrible for about a year trying to decide should I go or should I stay, if I went what would happen to him, if I stayed could I handle no sexual contact of any sort.... I battled back and forth withmyself until I made myself sick. At that point I stopped, everything. I basically sat myself down and had it out with my internal fighting.
 
What I eventually decided on was that I loved this man for my own reasons, he had gone out of his way to try and make me happy and to make sure I was taken care of. No he would not consent to me going elsewhere to be with someone else and at that point I did leave. I went out of state to be with someone else. In that relationship I had the sex and none of the rest and that for me was the deciding factor. I want the man, the safety, the stability and if that means giving up sex, well heh I have a whole chect of toys that say I can have fun whenever I want too... no its not nearly the same as sharing a physical bond or sexual connection with someone else, but it works enough to where I'm not freaking out about not having it.
 
Am I completely over the situation, no, it hurts like hell. But I see my ex basically everyday and we talk a LOT and I mean a LOT. I have the days where I am completely frusterated with him and bitch and vent and call him an asshole.... he has days where he's frusterated with me and calls me a bitch.... it worked for us. We could vent the frustration knowing that the other wouldnt internalize it or take it for anything more than a vent, after that we were fine for a while. Yeah we'd fight about dumb stuff sometimes but after talking about it, it worked itsself out.
 



MrDiscipline44 -> RE: Submissive in sexless marriage (6/22/2006 10:16:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

This part really annoys me.

So by the above logic the fact that an adult man pushed me to the ground when I was two and raped me is my fault for allowing to abuse me? His continued comments, trapping me in rooms, and telling lies about me so my brothers and sisters turned from my parents when they tried to remove the man from having contact with me is my fault?

Or are there double standards for abusers when their is an age different? What about a power, authority, economic or other differences?

Skilled abusers continue to abuse because they can manipulate not only their target but others around them.

I'm so sick of people excusing abusers -- she decided to stay, she dressed that way, she walked down that street, he had that look on his face, he flaunted his opinion. The other person made a choice to act against someone else.

As for basing feelings on past encounters... that is only part of what causes feelings and reactions now.

You have feeings, you just do, the choices you make from those feelings can become a matter of self-control.
About this part above. You weren't making choices in your life, were you. Your parents were making the choices for you because you couldn't. You were two.

What I'm sick and tired of is people using the word abuser on the slightest of things. Abusers do what they do because they enjoy doing it. There is no indication that the men talked about are enjoying putting their spouses through this. As a matter of fact, it's been quite the opposite.



HisTicia -> RE: Submissive in sexless marriage (6/22/2006 10:17:54 AM)

fast reply..not to anyone specific:

I have a good friend in this same situation..in a way.  The thing that I noticed was... a lot of ppl of course blame her husband..after hearing.. "I haven't had sex for 2 yrs..he won't get help..he won't talk about it..etc."  The thing is.. I did at first have much sympathy for her..and thought wow..it is so good that she stays with him even if he won't give her what she feels she needs.  I think that most ppl that she has told this story to do also..and it wasn't a friend I had just met..we have been for 12 yrs now..and I felt the same way they did..that is.. until I was where I could be around them and their home a lot.
 
That is when I finally "got it"...see... she is a person that while can come off very sweet..has a horrid temper..is very manipulative..and is verbally and even physically abusive to her husband.  I have not only hear these arguments.. I have seen them..and even had to do a patch-up job on a knife wound when he wouldn't call the police...because he didn't want her to get in trouble.  More my fear was..she would say he hit her..and he would have gotten in trouble..she does deserve to be put there for what she does.  At the time.. I felt loyalty to her.. maybe because she and I were friends first.. something.. at this point looking back.. I am ashamed I didn't take any action in the whole thing.  I did encourage the police..but he wouldn't call.  I have heard things be thrown at him..seen him kicked in the nuts..seen blood on the floor when I went over after a panicked call from her and something SHE had done to him..and more. 
 
They are both stuck I guess..that is why neither leaves.  She says she only stays because of the house..and her animals...he doesn't say much at all...but.. somewhere inside.. I do think he loves her.. or he is just used to her.. I don't get it..and can't personally try to figure it out.  They however, are both adults..and can either one finally have enough and go....or something worse will end it. (my fear)
 
What I can see.. is why he can't have sex with her.. or keep it up.. or probably has no desire for her.  How could you when you were treated and talked to worse than somone would a dog day after day..nagged.. yelled at... and worse? To ppl that know them though.. it's awwww poor *Sally.. she is so nice..and her husband totally neglects her.
 
In these situations.. most ppl jump on the guy..that he isn't doing what he should..and she is doing every thing in her power and is being the good and perfect wife.
 
To the OP:
 
That is why I don't think anyone can really give any more advice than what has been given.. I mean.. we don't know these two ppl...and you do.  There are probably parts to their relationship..that even as her best friend you don't know..like with me.. I didn't know this for years.
 
Please don't think I am saying this is what is happening with your friends..or any of the other posters that have went thru this..that is not my intention....but.. until we are there..and can see it every day.. there is nothing that anyone can offer but opinions based on their experiences with it..not even direct ones..but any..and do they best they can.
 
Not everyone sees things the same...we all give our opinions from our views..and our filters of things..so that is why the responses are so mixed..and varied. 
 
  Take it all with a grain of salt...and continue to be the good friend you are... it's hard being in that position... I have been for many years now..and you can feel for your friend..and her husband probably...it's a crappy place to be in sometimes.  Personally..I know I should have been with the husband..only in this case..and should have done something...but now that time has passed.  So.. just use your best judgement..and just keep letting her know that although you don't know of any more advice..you are there for her..whatever she decides to do.
 
                   Good luck...Ticia
 

 



MrDiscipline44 -> RE: Submissive in sexless marriage (6/22/2006 10:21:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

You were just magically born with the abilty to be responsible?
Nope, people are raised that way. Sadly, not everyone is. It's funny how you trying to beat down someone who was raised this way though.. Does it make her statment false in anyway? No, she's right. People do need to take responsibility for their part in their situations and not just put all the blame on their spouse or the other person in the situation.



Reflectivesoul -> RE: Submissive in sexless marriage (6/22/2006 10:28:14 AM)

TammyJo,
 
I have again and again stated that the victims of other things DO exist. I have also stated that there are situations that people can not help. I have also posted on this board in other sections about being raped and molested, so dont sit there and try to imply that I have ever said that a rapist is ever right.
 
If you are going to say that I am implying something or otherwise saying something then please do use my exact words. As I have said that this pertains to the situation of sexless relationships, not rape, not molestation, SEXLESS relationships.
 
I also have NEVER said that they either suck it up or leave, so you're barking up the wrong tree with that repeated statement twords me.
 
I have also NEVER said that the other party should not be responsible for their actions, what I DID say was that we are all responsible for our own actions. How that negates someone else from being responsible for themselves I'll never know. By saying that people should be responsible for themselves includes EVERYONE.
 
I NEVER excused someone elses actions, I DID however say that you cant label someone else as an abuser because they lack the drive for something that you want.
 
Please read what I have actually said, and not what you want to make it out to say. I have stated myself very very very clearly over and over and over again.



thetammyjo -> RE: Submissive in sexless marriage (6/22/2006 10:30:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrDiscipline44

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

You were just magically born with the abilty to be responsible?
Nope, people are raised that way. Sadly, not everyone is. It's funny how you trying to beat down someone who was raised this way though.. Does it make her statment false in anyway? No, she's right. People do need to take responsibility for their part in their situations and not just put all the blame on their spouse or the other person in the situation.


I'm pointing out that it is something you must learn to do.

Just saying "its you choice" denies the reality you said above -- you are raised that way but not everyone is.

And that is what I've seen.

Some people offered empathy.

Some also offered advice on the steps she could take to make a decision.

And some just say "its your own fault for staying, take responsibility and leave or suck it up".

I'm having an gut level reaction to that third group.

You can have that opinion and word it in a more helpful way. Like this:

Wow, that sucks that you feel this way and that you feel your efforts have been shot down by your husband. Are you therapy? That could help because you have a choice in front of you now that you know you don't want to stay in this situation. I don't think your husband is gonna be much help either, this sadly is going to have to be your decision about what to do next. I'm glad you have friends who encourage you can turn to and I'm glad you came here asking if others have been through the same thing. Good luck with this decision and good wishes as you carry it out.



BreakMeShakeMe -> RE: Submissive in sexless marriage (6/22/2006 10:31:27 AM)

Damn... need fresh coffee... yall hold on... let me freshen up the bar... damn.. they got pause buttons on tv's but not on forums... better have a talk with Mods..LOL



Reflectivesoul -> RE: Submissive in sexless marriage (6/22/2006 10:31:38 AM)

quote:

You were just magically born with the abilty to be responsible?


No. I learned to be responsible for myself, my behavior, my reactions, my everything through trial and error and mistakes that I have made. I did NOT blame everyone else for MY problems, I accepted and was accountable for the things in my life that I had the ability to change, that I had the ability to to do something about.



thetammyjo -> RE: Submissive in sexless marriage (6/22/2006 10:38:22 AM)

I haven't seen you say one thing about the men in these situations other than they are being blamed. I see you saying over and over and over that the women who complain should take responsiblity.

How do you think these men should take responsibility then if you believe that both have responsibility? Can you give us some examples?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Reflectivesoul

TammyJo,

I have again and again stated that the victims of other things DO exist. I have also stated that there are situations that people can not help. I have also posted on this board in other sections about being raped and molested, so dont sit there and try to imply that I have ever said that a rapist is ever right.

If you are going to say that I am implying something or otherwise saying something then please do use my exact words. As I have said that this pertains to the situation of sexless relationships, not rape, not molestation, SEXLESS relationships.

I also have NEVER said that they either suck it up or leave, so you're barking up the wrong tree with that repeated statement twords me.

I have also NEVER said that the other party should not be responsible for their actions, what I DID say was that we are all responsible for our own actions. How that negates someone else from being responsible for themselves I'll never know. By saying that people should be responsible for themselves includes EVERYONE.

I NEVER excused someone elses actions, I DID however say that you cant label someone else as an abuser because they lack the drive for something that you want.

Please read what I have actually said, and not what you want to make it out to say. I have stated myself very very very clearly over and over and over again.



agirl -> RE: Submissive in sexless marriage (6/22/2006 10:40:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo



You have to know you have the ability to make a choice before you can make one.

You have to be able to cover out that choice when you've made it.

Not everyone has had the same upbringing, education, or supportive networks that some of us do. They may not know they have other options and they may not have the means to carry them out.

Think that's stupid and adults should know better? How do aduls know better? How did you learn you had other options? How do you go about becoming able to carry out your choices?


It can be quite difficult to shift your focus from  trying make something work, to embracing the fact that it isn't GOING to work.

Once that point is reached it's VERY hard to continue in a relationship.

People opt out of relationships mentally and sometimes *forget* to inform their partner that they've done so......it can take a long time to realise that all the different avenues you're trying to solve the situation are going to lead to the same outcome because your partner isn't committed to being *there*.

These realisations often come in a drip drip fashion and, as you say.....not everyone is in a position to up and cast off their lives for many reasons from mental strength, lack of support to fear of the unknown.

When you are unhappy over a long period of time it can make decision-making very difficult too and the soul searching that takes place can be tiring, checking your motives and questioning yourself etc.




agirl














thetammyjo -> RE: Submissive in sexless marriage (6/22/2006 10:52:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reflectivesoul

quote:

You were just magically born with the abilty to be responsible?


No. I learned to be responsible for myself, my behavior, my reactions, my everything through trial and error and mistakes that I have made. I did NOT blame everyone else for MY problems, I accepted and was accountable for the things in my life that I had the ability to change, that I had the ability to to do something about.


*clapping*

Good for you.

Why do you think these women you are blaming are not attempting to learn to do the same thing? How do you know that their "complaining" isn't one step in their learning? What if it is a necessary step for them?

This is what I've learned in therapy and in several psychology and sociology courses.

Initially people do lay the entire blame on themselves for things that happen. To do otherwise strips us of our control and that is scary.

Then you realize that it isn't all about you and you can turn it around and try to put blame on others. Again, that strips you of control though and that is scary.

You learn to start looking at your behavior and the behavior of others and realize they feed off of each other.

You learn to take what you see and analysis, make "what ifs" scenarios in your head.

You learn to do something different this time around. Now this is a danger cause it might not work out this time either -- you have to learn to continue to try new actions and new decisions. It is easy to give up.

You learn to reach out and reach in to find support so you can keep trying. You learn to celebrate those good choices and to not beat yourself or others up over the poor ones.

You learn to cast off others who try to keep you from growing and learning to make choices.

Maybe at the end you also learn to help others along the process of learning to take care of themselves better.



BreakMeShakeMe -> RE: Submissive in sexless marriage (6/22/2006 10:55:43 AM)

Ok ... bar restocked... fresh coffee and all... make sure yall clean up after yourselves.. Veronica still isn't back and I am too busy today....[:D]

RS.... i'm sure you've seen Owned and I talking about a horse in other threads... let me know when you need my shovel. In mean time... stand firm... because I've not seen nothing wrong with your post... other than you state what you want without the sugar coating. And that alone.. pisses others off more. You say what you mean...and mean what you say. Makes it harder for others to grasp sometimes.

Jessica



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