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RE: Collateral murder - 2/7/2013 10:18:02 AM   
Nosathro


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Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub


Stop killing Americans, and their children, or supporting those that do then we can stop killing theirs. Until that day comes I am all for drones that limit the danger to our sons and daughters.

The above said I do want our armed forces to do their best to limit civilian casualties.

Butch


The drones are operated by the CIA not the military, do you include the death of civilian?

http://afpak.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/11/02/counting_civilian_casualties_in_cia_s_drone_war

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Collateral murder - 2/7/2013 10:24:26 AM   
Switcheroo1983


Posts: 238
Joined: 1/29/2013
Status: offline 		I realize in this thread, and others lately, I've been a bit out of line. It's been a bad few days but that's no excuse and I apologize. If I've offended anyone/hit nerves I am sorry.

Aylee - That comment about Sex Offenders and race was uncalled for and juvenile, and I apologize. I shouldn't have said that to you.

As to your comment about Egypt, a storm is headed very much in that direction. My advice to any Westerner living there right now is GTFO. I don't mean that as in "you don't belong" but as in "run for your life".

(in reply to Nosathro)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Collateral murder - 2/7/2013 10:29:08 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Switcheroo1983
I realize in this thread, and others lately, I've been a bit out of line. It's been a bad few days but that's no excuse and I apologize. If I've offended anyone/hit nerves I am sorry.
Aylee - That comment about Sex Offenders and race was uncalled for and juvenile, and I apologize. I shouldn't have said that to you.
As to your comment about Egypt, a storm is headed very much in that direction. My advice to any Westerner living there right now is GTFO. I don't mean that as in "you don't belong" but as in "run for your life".


Kudo's on your "manning up" (or "womanning up," depending on your gender).

What kind of storm are you talking about, regarding Egypt's not-so-distant future?

_____________________________

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(in reply to Switcheroo1983)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Collateral murder - 2/7/2013 10:43:14 AM   
Aylee


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Joined: 10/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Switcheroo1983
I realize in this thread, and others lately, I've been a bit out of line. It's been a bad few days but that's no excuse and I apologize. If I've offended anyone/hit nerves I am sorry.
Aylee - That comment about Sex Offenders and race was uncalled for and juvenile, and I apologize. I shouldn't have said that to you.
As to your comment about Egypt, a storm is headed very much in that direction. My advice to any Westerner living there right now is GTFO. I don't mean that as in "you don't belong" but as in "run for your life".


Kudo's on your "manning up" (or "womanning up," depending on your gender).

What kind of storm are you talking about, regarding Egypt's not-so-distant future?


Well, tourism (Egypt's money maker) is down due to political issues, i.e. the Muslim Brotherhood. Egypt also imports A LOT of its food. The government also gives a lot of food and fuel subsidies. They cannot continue this without about 30 billion in foreign aid a year or raising their GDP.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/02/05/egyptians-short-on-food-are-told-to-eat-less/

Egypt is also having food riots.

What is happening in Egypt is a self-made famine brought about by social and political disaster rather than crop failure or war.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Collateral murder - 2/7/2013 10:58:07 AM   
Switcheroo1983


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Joined: 1/29/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri



Kudo's on your "manning up" (or "womanning up," depending on your gender).

What kind of storm are you talking about, regarding Egypt's not-so-distant future?

No kudos need, sir, not why I said it (I'm a man, btw), it just needed to be said.

As to Egypt, while Mubarak was a dictator, he was also secular and open to dialogue. You know those oppressed and jailed "religious dissidents"? Radicals. I mean radicals. They are now free from prison. A lot of these guys are too radical for the Muslim Brotherhood (which is also, in my opinion, and other countries' opinions, radical) and just yesterday as a matter of fact formed their own political party, which is STAUNCH nationalist and jihadist. They are somewhat popular. The Copts (Coptic Christians) face an even more uncertain future.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Collateral murder - 2/7/2013 12:07:03 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

No one demands that the terrorists, tyrants, and suicide bombers think of others. I see no reason to take special consideration either.


That answers the point about altruism, but it doesn't answer the point about engendering hatred and creating new terrorists. The latter is about long term *self*- interest. Any given president may not care greatly what might happen after his (second) term is up, but his nation is best advised to.

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(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Collateral murder - 2/7/2013 1:08:45 PM   
DaNewAgeViking


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

The drones are operated by the CIA not the military...

And this is different...how?

(in reply to Nosathro)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Collateral murder - 2/7/2013 1:09:36 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		saves some typing.

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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Collateral murder - 2/7/2013 1:55:32 PM   
kdsub


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Joined: 8/16/2007
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quote:

The drones are operated by the CIA not the military, do you include the death of civilian


So you say the CIA is not an armed force? And I do not include the purposeful targeted death of a non combatant…a better word than civilian. If however militants purposely put their families at risk by hiding behind their shirts then there will be casualties among civilians and the fault is theirs not ours.

There was a really good documentary on drones and the training of the pilots on PBS… you should look it up and take a view. They describe how they try to discriminate between civilians and militants… And they admit some tragic mistakes made.

Butch

_____________________________

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Nosathro)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Collateral murder - 2/7/2013 1:56:39 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		It's the fog of war, anybody who has ever bought that surgical strike bullshit, ever......

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Collateral murder - 2/7/2013 2:56:30 PM   
egern


Posts: 537
Joined: 1/11/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: egern

Also, it is a matter of time before everybody else use drones - as and when they please. Law and order goes out the back way.



It's also only a matter of time before the generation of kids who've seen innocent family members killed will become terrorists themselves.


YES!

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Collateral murder - 2/7/2013 3:51:45 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
May I point out that "collateral damage and casualties" have been an acceptable part of modern warfare?


Actually, British bombing in WW2 has been a bone of contention here ever since. Arguments still rage about the lack of medals given to bomber aircrew. I think it's fair to say that the UK has never looked back at bombing policy then with unalloyed pride. But such nearly-indiscriminate bombing was accepted, if not entirely condoned, during WW2 in a way that can't be the case in e.g. Afghanistan - not least because such conflicts aren't supposed to be between two entire nations. The average German citizen was much more of an inherently 'guilty party' in British eyes during WW2. That's not supposed to be true of the average Afghan.


Indeed, not viewed with pride, but viewed here with an acceptance it was needed. Lots not forget indiscriminate killings have long been a tactic in war. Many forget there have been many cases of conventional shelling of towns and burning of cities. There were also regular bombing attacks on British cities during WW1

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Collateral murder - 2/7/2013 3:55:37 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub


Stop killing Americans, and their children, or supporting those that do then we can stop killing theirs. Until that day comes I am all for drones that limit the danger to our sons and daughters.

The above said I do want our armed forces to do their best to limit civilian casualties.

Butch


The drones are operated by the CIA not the military, do you include the death of civilian?

http://afpak.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/11/02/counting_civilian_casualties_in_cia_s_drone_war


Incredible to think the CIA is not part of your military. Rumsfeld used them for exactly that purpose in the invasion of Afghanistan.

(in reply to Nosathro)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Collateral murder - 2/7/2013 4:02:36 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Has America gone rogue ? Has America forsaken its creed of equality before the eyes of the law, habeus corpus and due process ? Yes and about 2003 under Bush. Obama doing what he needs to do to stay alive...has and will continue all of the major neocon policies.

There are so many now that claim the US drones have killed over 200 Pakistani children, I am beginning to believe them. The military and Condoleezza Rice's cold dismissal of dead Iraqi children seem not to care at all and reinforce their total disregard and my new beliefs about our govt.

Is this us and will it not simply be expanded ? Will the people of the US stand up and speak out against these extra-judicial killings ?

When will the people stand up against drone attacks and killing, when they are overhead...shooting at us ?



drones on the home turf?

that could get very interesting indeed



_____________________________

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Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

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(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Collateral murder - 2/7/2013 4:06:32 PM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DaNewAgeViking


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

The drones are operated by the CIA not the military...

And this is different...how?



There a lot of lot, the CIA is secertive. The military is governed by in part International Law, specifically the Genva Convention, as well as Constitutional law and Federal Law, the CIA is not. Further as it applies to the use of predator drones in use of against US citizens CIA by it charter is not permited to conduct excutions, the ACLU has brought this point in it ongoing court case. This may seem inmaterial to some but it does add to the arguement against using drones to kill US citizens.

(in reply to DaNewAgeViking)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Collateral murder - 2/7/2013 4:09:24 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Has America gone rogue ? Has America forsaken its creed of equality before the eyes of the law, habeus corpus and due process ? Yes and about 2003 under Bush. Obama doing what he needs to do to stay alive...has and will continue all of the major neocon policies.

There are so many now that claim the US drones have killed over 200 Pakistani children, I am beginning to believe them. The military and Condoleezza Rice's cold dismissal of dead Iraqi children seem not to care at all and reinforce their total disregard and my new beliefs about our govt.

Is this us and will it not simply be expanded ? Will the people of the US stand up and speak out against these extra-judicial killings ?

When will the people stand up against drone attacks and killing, when they are overhead...shooting at us ?



Somehow you`d feel better if they were manned aircraft?


And when did we wait for someone attacking us to be prosecuted before we fired back?


_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Collateral murder - 2/7/2013 4:21:15 PM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

No one demands that the terrorists, tyrants, and suicide bombers think of others. I see no reason to take special consideration either.


That answers the point about altruism, but it doesn't answer the point about engendering hatred and creating new terrorists.


This would hold more water if things like cartoons and comics did not create new terrorists.

quote:

The latter is about long term *self*- interest. Any given president may not care greatly what might happen after his (second) term is up, but his nation is best advised to.


Consider this: being able to get up on your roof with a rifle
to drive off rampaging hordes of barbarians (whether Avars, Huns, Viking
raiders, or rioters) is liberty. Having to do so because the barbarian
hordes are endemic to your situation, is not.

So the barbarians have to be driven off or kept suppressed, which
requires organization with the sanction to use force (since the
barbarians, pretty much by definition, aren't going to respond to sweet
reason. If they did, they wouldn't be barbarians).

Or do you really believe that sweet reason and a pretty please is going to work?

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Collateral murder - 2/7/2013 4:29:23 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		We should promote an affective defense and dissuade things,anything, that promote terrorism......no matter who`s feelings get hurt.


_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Collateral murder - 2/7/2013 4:32:32 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

This would hold more water if things like cartoons and comics did not create new terrorists.



I doubt if cartoons or comics have added one new terrorist, drones hitting the wrong targets and killing civillians certainly have.

You are right, pretty please will not work, but nor will the continued collateral deaths.

(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Collateral murder - 2/7/2013 4:44:42 PM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline 		I am finding it disturbing here..on othe issues, one in particular many claim the it is their rights, and the right of the people shall not be infringed upon etc, etc, etc. Yet it seem to me that many feel that so what is drones kill terrorists...two of the these terrorist were natural born US citizens, they had the same rights as everyone else, one is the right to trial. Now we are reading where more US citizens possibly on US soil, being excuted buy these drones, on the order of a faceless government bureacrat who answer to know one, deciding who is a terrorist and who dies. Regardless of what someone may have done as a US Citizen they do have a right to trial. There also seems to be a view that some people are less then human..further justifing the actions

barbarian bar·bar·i·an
Noun

(in ancient times) A member of a community or tribe not belonging to one of the great civilizations (Greek, Roman, Christian).


(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 40
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