quote:

ORIGINAL: egern

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub


Stop killing Americans, and their children, or supporting those that do then we can stop killing theirs. Until that day comes I am all for drones that limit the danger to our sons and daughters.

The above said I do want our armed forces to do their best to limit civilian casualties.

Butch

Why are 'our' sons and daughters more important than other ordinary peopele's sons and daughters?

Aren't all innocent children 'ours'?

Or is it only Americam children that count?

quote:


Sorry buddy but they are NOT equivalent.

The "American" we killed was plotting against us.

quote:


This is a shooting war and he got shot.ANYONE around him is fair game whether they`re con-combatants or not.

quote:


If the peacenicks can come up with a more affective way to limit collateral deaths then step up and tell us.

quote:



But there`s no difference between killing an enemy with a manned air craft than with an unmaned one.


Either could be abused or mis-used...of that there`s no doubt.Again....no difference between the two.

quote:


Until we have examples of mis-use(and collateral deaths are NOT mis-use,IMHO)....we really can`t discuss this topic anything but hypothetical.

quote:


That said,should we outlaw the use of jet fighters because hypothetically,one day they could be mis-used on Americans?

No....we shouldn`t b/c that`s ridiculous.

quote:


Should we be careful...hell yes.


Could we make it better.....we damm better if we can.A new "panel" to vet the suspects would probably be agreeable to the admin.I trust that they can make a case for each and every target.

quote:

I have a hard time imagining small children doing this..

quote:

I assume you mean non-combatants? So, if I am in a bank which then gets robbed, the police are totally in their right to shoot ANYBODY in there to get at the bank robber?

quote:

ORIGINAL: HarryVanWinkle

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: HarryVanWinkle
No great power in all of human history has gone to greater effort to avoid collateral damage while killing its enemies than the United States and its allies.

Hell's bells, Harry, are you forgetting Hiroshima and Nagasaki? And in the US/Brit case, Dresden? That seems a pretty bold statement!

Are you forgetting Pearl Harbor, Bataan, Coventry and Auschwitz, amongst thousands of other crimes?

A war that ended over 67 years ago is utterly irrelevant to the subject at hand. Is your case "proving" how evil the United States is so utterly bankrupt that you need to haul in decisions that were made by people who have been dead for decades, that were made before the vast majority of today's decision makers were even born? Those decisions were made ten years before I was born and I'm so old I knew dirt when it was still rock.

Revisionist history, I should think, would properly be "discussed" (aka ranted about) in a different thread.

quote:

ORIGINAL: egern

quote:



But there`s no difference between killing an enemy with a manned air craft than with an unmaned one.


Either could be abused or mis-used...of that there`s no doubt.Again....no difference between the two.

The difference is that a drone is easier and with no risk, and suddenly drone killing it is done as a matter of course, and against all laws.

quote:


Until we have examples of mis-use(and collateral deaths are NOT mis-use,IMHO)....we really can`t discuss this topic anything but hypothetical.

So, again, if the police storm a bank which is being robbed, they can lawfully kill everybody to be sure to get the bank robber?

Or, as in Algeria, it is ok to kill the hostages to get the terrorists? In their eyes, a hostage is a dead person walking.

Innocents around terrorists are then dead men women and children walking, and this is ok?

Because they 'hide' the terrorists?? How are they -unarmed civilians - supposed to get rid of them? They are slaughtered by both sides.

quote:


That said,should we outlaw the use of jet fighters because hypothetically,one day they could be mis-used on Americans?

No....we shouldn`t b/c that`s ridiculous.

America is not often a war zone. But drones could certainly make it so - how long do you think it will take the terrorists to figure that one out?

quote:


Should we be careful...hell yes.


Could we make it better.....we damm better if we can.A new "panel" to vet the suspects would probably be agreeable to the admin.I trust that they can make a case for each and every target.

Nobody knows, because they are not answerable to anyone at all.


[quote[
The fact is that one pilot or crew making an assessment is far more likely to make mistakes than the multi-layered command structure that controls the drone from the real-time intel people to the three or four officers that have to sign off on a weapons launch.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
Has America gone rogue ? Has America forsaken its creed of equality before the eyes of the law, habeus corpus and due process ? Yes and about 2003 under Bush. Obama doing what he needs to do to stay alive...has and will continue all of the major neocon policies.

There are so many now that claim the US drones have killed over 200 Pakistani children, I am beginning to believe them. The military and Condoleezza Rice's cold dismissal of dead Iraqi children seem not to care at all and reinforce their total disregard and my new beliefs about our govt.

Is this us and will it not simply be expanded ? Will the people of the US stand up and speak out against these extra-judicial killings ?

When will the people stand up against drone attacks and killing, when they are overhead...shooting at us ?

Somehow you`d feel better if they were manned aircraft?

And when did we wait for someone attacking us to be prosecuted before we fired back?

Up until Iraq...our entire history especially when it comes to actually going to war. American leaders lied through their teeth to justify a very specious UN resolution to attack a sovereign country that had nothing to do with 9/11 and was not a threat to the US.

The possible exception of Vietnam and its very convenient 'Gulf of Tonkin' resolution which was also an outright lie, left 55,000 Americans and countless millions of children and innocents dead because of it. The CIA even took out the S. Vietnamese govt. to accommodate US war-making ends.

From the CIA 1952 coup in Iran on...the US decided who must go and didn't give a damn who had to die to achieve [their] ends.

Never before has the US declared as it were, we were at war against a tactic involving anybody we say it does and anywhere in the world we say it is and using now weapons even of remote control to meet those ends. All drones do is 'clean it up a bit.

Notice how the American media accommodates those ends by not showing the killing and real damage our warmongering is doing in the middle east ?

I couldn`t agree more.

But there`s no difference between killing an enemy with a manned air craft than with an unmaned one.

Either could be abused or mis-used...of that there`s no doubt.Again....no difference between the two.

Until we have examples of mis-use(and collateral deaths are NOT mis-use,IMHO)....we really can`t discuss this topic anything but hypothetical.

That said,should we outlaw the use of jet fighters because hypothetically,one day they could be mis-used on Americans?

No....we shouldn`t b/c that`s ridiculous.

Should we be careful...hell yes.

Could we make it better.....we damm better if we can.A new "panel" to vet the suspects would probably be agreeable to the admin.I trust that they can make a case for each and every target.

The fact is that one pilot or crew making an assessment is far more likely to make mistakes than the multi-layered command structure that controls the drone from the real-time intel people to the three or four officers that have to sign off on a weapons launch.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

I assume you mean non-combatants? So, if I am in a bank which then gets robbed, the police are totally in their right to shoot ANYBODY in there to get at the bank robber?

If you were a bank customer and the bank robbers were killing everyone in the bank I think you would forgive the police if they accidentally shot someone trying to save you.

You seem to lack basic reasoning skills so no use posting the oblivious answers to the rest of your post.

Butch

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

I have a hard time imagining small children doing this..

Then my friend you do not watch the news.

Butch

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
BTW as for a better idea. I have one, STOP the drone attacks and send in hit teams of these targets are such a grave threat. That's what the military is for.

quote:

For example, we could have taken Saddam out with drone attacks or a hit team or brought his govt. down from the inside. Plus, my knowledge of these things that informs most wouldn't give a damn if those drones took out most of his high command along with him.
That wasn't good enough. we had to go in with shock and awe. Shock and awe killed 1000's of innocents and who in the west gave a shit ? Nobody. Who in the middle east cared. All of them.

quote:

Example: Iran saw what happened to Iraq without nukes. They also see what hasn't happened to N. Korea...with nukes. Gee, I wonder why Iran wants nukes ? Iran now brags of having superior drones.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
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• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

I assume you mean non-combatants? So, if I am in a bank which then gets robbed, the police are totally in their right to shoot ANYBODY in there to get at the bank robber?

If you were a bank customer and the bank robbers were killing everyone in the bank I think you would forgive the police if they accidentally shot someone trying to save you.

You seem to lack basic reasoning skills so no use posting the oblivious answers to the rest of your post.

Butch

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Egern with further consideration I am sorry I seem so condescending…you will have to forgive me I have a tendency to be this way. I do understand your view…I believe it is wrong and not fair to our armed forces and especially to those who by accident kill innocents. It is tough enough on their conscience without being called murders.

Butch

quote:

ORIGINAL: egern

quote:

ORIGINAL: egern

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub


Stop killing Americans, and their children, or supporting those that do then we can stop killing theirs. Until that day comes I am all for drones that limit the danger to our sons and daughters.

The above said I do want our armed forces to do their best to limit civilian casualties.

Butch

Why are 'our' sons and daughters more important than other ordinary peopele's sons and daughters?

Aren't all innocent children 'ours'?

Or is it only Americam children that count?

quote:


Sorry buddy but they are NOT equivalent.

The "American" we killed was plotting against us.

Or so they say, but who knows, since they do not bother taking them to court?

quote:


This is a shooting war and he got shot.ANYONE around him is fair game whether they`re con-combatants or not.

I assume you mean non-combatants? So, if I am in a bank which then gets robbed, the police are totally in their right to shoot ANYBODY in there to get at the bank robber?

quote:


If the peacenicks can come up with a more affective way to limit collateral deaths then step up and tell us.

Wow, that word takes me back :-)
I do not know about any PNs, but my suggestion would be to arrest the criminals and take them to court. With death sentence if necessary, but proven, and lawful.

Of course it is much easier to just kill people - just like terrorists do.

quote:

Or so they say, but who knows, since they do not bother taking them to court?

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Egern with further consideration I am sorry I seem so condescending…you will have to forgive me I have a tendency to be this way. I do understand your view…I believe it is wrong and not fair to our armed forces and especially to those who by accident kill innocents. It is tough enough on their conscience without being called murders.

Butch

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
Has America gone rogue ? Has America forsaken its creed of equality before the eyes of the law, habeus corpus and due process ? Yes and about 2003 under Bush. Obama doing what he needs to do to stay alive...has and will continue all of the major neocon policies.

There are so many now that claim the US drones have killed over 200 Pakistani children, I am beginning to believe them. The military and Condoleezza Rice's cold dismissal of dead Iraqi children seem not to care at all and reinforce their total disregard and my new beliefs about our govt.

Is this us and will it not simply be expanded ? Will the people of the US stand up and speak out against these extra-judicial killings ?

When will the people stand up against drone attacks and killing, when they are overhead...shooting at us ?

Somehow you`d feel better if they were manned aircraft?

And when did we wait for someone attacking us to be prosecuted before we fired back?

Up until Iraq...our entire history especially when it comes to actually going to war. American leaders lied through their teeth to justify a very specious UN resolution to attack a sovereign country that had nothing to do with 9/11 and was not a threat to the US.

The possible exception of Vietnam and its very convenient 'Gulf of Tonkin' resolution which was also an outright lie, left 55,000 Americans and countless millions of children and innocents dead because of it. The CIA even took out the S. Vietnamese govt. to accommodate US war-making ends.

From the CIA 1952 coup in Iran on...the US decided who must go and didn't give a damn who had to die to achieve [their] ends.

Never before has the US declared as it were, we were at war against a tactic involving anybody we say it does and anywhere in the world we say it is and using now weapons even of remote control to meet those ends. All drones do is 'clean it up a bit.

Notice how the American media accommodates those ends by not showing the killing and real damage our warmongering is doing in the middle east ?

I couldn`t agree more.

But there`s no difference between killing an enemy with a manned air craft than with an unmaned one.

Either could be abused or mis-used...of that there`s no doubt.Again....no difference between the two.

Until we have examples of mis-use(and collateral deaths are NOT mis-use,IMHO)....we really can`t discuss this topic anything but hypothetical.

That said,should we outlaw the use of jet fighters because hypothetically,one day they could be mis-used on Americans?

No....we shouldn`t b/c that`s ridiculous.

Should we be careful...hell yes.

Could we make it better.....we damm better if we can.A new "panel" to vet the suspects would probably be agreeable to the admin.I trust that they can make a case for each and every target.

The fact is that one pilot or crew making an assessment is far more likely to make mistakes than the multi-layered command structure that controls the drone from the real-time intel people to the three or four officers that have to sign off on a weapons launch.

To my knowledge when aircraft are involved, we do not target an individual but a military installation or easily identifiable troops or equipment and rarely at that.

As I wrote, drones just try to 'clean it up' a little more...not as messy as a fighter or missile that kills innocents most of whom know what's coming and take cover. Pilots and crew don't make kill decisions and specific assessments, the officers do while relying on visual confirmation from the crew and the collateral murder becomes all too much to take.

With drones, we make it easier for our govt. to justify, are virtually sneak attacks from longer distances, without warning and the killing is narrowed but not nearly enough. They also allow the military and the politicians making the decisions to strike much more often...thus the mounting deaths of innocents many of whom are children.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Remember, Saddam had a court trial by his peers. He was found guilty and sentenced to death. bin Laden didn't get that. It could have been a good way to show that we are all about "justice" had we been able to capture bin Laden and try him.

quote:

ORIGINAL: leonine

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Remember, Saddam had a court trial by his peers. He was found guilty and sentenced to death. bin Laden didn't get that. It could have been a good way to show that we are all about "justice" had we been able to capture bin Laden and try him.

But the big problem there is, what would we have put him on trial for doing? Killing civilians, in a country with whom there was no declaration of war, in an air attack aimed at civilian targets? He could have called a thousand witnesses from Pakistan to testify that the US has been doing exactly that for years.
That's the trouble with tearing up the book of rules when it happens to get in your way. You can't appeal to the rules later when it suits you. If you want to show that you're all about "justice" you have to abide by the laws yourself, even when it's inconvenient.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
Has America gone rogue ? Has America forsaken its creed of equality before the eyes of the law, habeus corpus and due process ? Yes and about 2003 under Bush. Obama doing what he needs to do to stay alive...has and will continue all of the major neocon policies.

There are so many now that claim the US drones have killed over 200 Pakistani children, I am beginning to believe them. The military and Condoleezza Rice's cold dismissal of dead Iraqi children seem not to care at all and reinforce their total disregard and my new beliefs about our govt.

Is this us and will it not simply be expanded ? Will the people of the US stand up and speak out against these extra-judicial killings ?

When will the people stand up against drone attacks and killing, when they are overhead...shooting at us ?

Somehow you`d feel better if they were manned aircraft?

And when did we wait for someone attacking us to be prosecuted before we fired back?

Up until Iraq...our entire history especially when it comes to actually going to war. American leaders lied through their teeth to justify a very specious UN resolution to attack a sovereign country that had nothing to do with 9/11 and was not a threat to the US.

The possible exception of Vietnam and its very convenient 'Gulf of Tonkin' resolution which was also an outright lie, left 55,000 Americans and countless millions of children and innocents dead because of it. The CIA even took out the S. Vietnamese govt. to accommodate US war-making ends.

From the CIA 1952 coup in Iran on...the US decided who must go and didn't give a damn who had to die to achieve [their] ends.

Never before has the US declared as it were, we were at war against a tactic involving anybody we say it does and anywhere in the world we say it is and using now weapons even of remote control to meet those ends. All drones do is 'clean it up a bit.

Notice how the American media accommodates those ends by not showing the killing and real damage our warmongering is doing in the middle east ?

I couldn`t agree more.

But there`s no difference between killing an enemy with a manned air craft than with an unmaned one.

Either could be abused or mis-used...of that there`s no doubt.Again....no difference between the two.

Until we have examples of mis-use(and collateral deaths are NOT mis-use,IMHO)....we really can`t discuss this topic anything but hypothetical.

That said,should we outlaw the use of jet fighters because hypothetically,one day they could be mis-used on Americans?

No....we shouldn`t b/c that`s ridiculous.

Should we be careful...hell yes.

Could we make it better.....we damm better if we can.A new "panel" to vet the suspects would probably be agreeable to the admin.I trust that they can make a case for each and every target.

The fact is that one pilot or crew making an assessment is far more likely to make mistakes than the multi-layered command structure that controls the drone from the real-time intel people to the three or four officers that have to sign off on a weapons launch.

To my knowledge when aircraft are involved, we do not target an individual but a military installation or easily identifiable troops or equipment and rarely at that.

As I wrote, drones just try to 'clean it up' a little more...not as messy as a fighter or missile that kills innocents most of whom know what's coming and take cover. Pilots and crew don't make kill decisions and specific assessments, the officers do while relying on visual confirmation from the crew and the collateral murder becomes all too much to take.

With drones, we make it easier for our govt. to justify, are virtually sneak attacks from longer distances, without warning and the killing is narrowed but not nearly enough. They also allow the military and the politicians making the decisions to strike much more often...thus the mounting deaths of innocents many of whom are children.

You need to provide examples of this abuse and misuse.

So far, I haven`t seen any examples of abuse, though I`m sure mistakes are made........as there are with manned aircraft(or with any type of military activity for that matter).

I haven`t seen any examples of mistakes either.

That a terrorist keeps his kids near is not going to stop us from shooting at him.That his kids might be hurt because he`s using them as human shields is on him(her) and no one else.


The only thing the anti-droners can point to is the "possibility" of abuse or misuse.

Parsing the difference between manned and unmanned craft is also pointless.Drones aren`t any less or more likely to be abused or mis-used than and an attack helocopter would be.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZ-dNu5uOQc&feature=endscreen&NR=1

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loNKfXEhWGc&NR=1&feature=endscreen

Both methods are basically the same.Same cameras/lenses,same fire power,same abilty to make mistakes or get it right.