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RE: Collateral murder - 2/12/2013 11:42:48 AM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		The defense department acknowledges that collateral casualties occur, however the DoD leaves the reporting of those dead to the local news media.

Until we (humans) actually design a weapon that can be specifically targeted to a enemy combatant and not kill non combatants, it is going to happen.

And as long as terrorists and insurgents hide among civilians it is going to happen.

That fact gives the US military two choices, risk collateral casualties or ignore going after enemy combatants, terrorists and insurgents.

While I will admit that it is unfortunate that such things happen, it has been going on since the advent of siege engines, siege cannon, field artillery, aerial bombing and atomic weapons.

Which is why there are millions of people fleeing combat zones, they dont want to be killed by accident.

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Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Collateral murder - 2/12/2013 12:59:47 PM   
leonine


Posts: 409
Joined: 11/3/2009
From: [email protected]
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: leonine

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Remember, Saddam had a court trial by his peers. He was found guilty and sentenced to death. bin Laden didn't get that. It could have been a good way to show that we are all about "justice" had we been able to capture bin Laden and try him.

But the big problem there is, what would we have put him on trial for doing? Killing civilians, in a country with whom there was no declaration of war, in an air attack aimed at civilian targets? He could have called a thousand witnesses from Pakistan to testify that the US has been doing exactly that for years.
That's the trouble with tearing up the book of rules when it happens to get in your way. You can't appeal to the rules later when it suits you. If you want to show that you're all about "justice" you have to abide by the laws yourself, even when it's inconvenient.


No argument. If he was the "mastermind" behind the 9/11 attacks, then that's what we try him for. That's why we went after him in the first place, wasn't it? And, it doesn't matter if we are doing the same thing (at least not as far as his guilt/innocence is concerned). That's a separate issue.

A very germane issue if we were to try him under international law, and we were shown to have violated the same law in the same way. The court would be left with the alternatives of ordering W. Bush put in the dock alongside him, or concluding that if the US did it, then it must be a legitimate tactic of war.

When we put Saddam on trial we had to dance around to find a charge that he couldn't answer the same way, that's why he was finally tried on the old issue of using chemical weapons. And if he'd had competent legal representation he could have got us there too, with the use of white phosphorus in Faluja, which is classed alongside chemical weapons by the UN.

Same problem: if you blatantly ignore the law, you can't pose as the world's policeman, you're just the world's biggest gangster.

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Gonna pack in my hand, pick up on a piece of land and build myself a cabin in the woods.
It's there I'm gonna stay, until there comes a day when this old world starts a-changing for the good.
- James Taylor

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Collateral murder - 2/12/2013 1:06:12 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Yeah, except something along that line was done on another matter, and W withdrew us from the world court, that was way way back. 

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Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Collateral murder - 2/12/2013 1:24:47 PM   
leonine


Posts: 409
Joined: 11/3/2009
From: [email protected]
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


Until we (humans) actually design a weapon that can be specifically targeted to a enemy combatant and not kill non combatants, it is going to happen.
Which is why people are advocating sending in troops instead of drones. Because properly trained, properly led troops, whose officers honestly respect human life and make that part of their objectives, can at least make an honest effort not to kill innocent bystanders.

Yes, it's difficult, which is why the police have those special firing ranges where you have to assess a target before you shoot and lose points if you gun down a civilian. But it's a more successful strategy in the long run. Because if you kill six insurgents by means of such indiscriminate slaughter that a dozen people who weren't against you before join the insurgents to get revenge for their friends and family, then in the long run you are losing.
quote:


And as long as terrorists and insurgents hide among civilians it is going to happen.
By that argument, the only viable tactic for the police is to go in and sweep buildings with machine guns and grenades, since crooks have this habit of hiding among civilians.

Yet somehow they find other ways.
quote:


While I will admit that it is unfortunate that such things happen, it has been going on since the advent of siege engines, siege cannon, field artillery, aerial bombing and atomic weapons.
Which is why people have spent so much effort trying to establish international laws and rules of war to minimise it. And the trouble with tearing up such rules when they don't suit you, is that you can't appeal to them later to condemn people you don't like.



_____________________________

Leo9


Gonna pack in my hand, pick up on a piece of land and build myself a cabin in the woods.
It's there I'm gonna stay, until there comes a day when this old world starts a-changing for the good.
- James Taylor

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Collateral murder - 2/12/2013 1:31:25 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: leonine


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


Until we (humans) actually design a weapon that can be specifically targeted to a enemy combatant and not kill non combatants, it is going to happen.
Which is why people are advocating sending in troops instead of drones. Because properly trained, properly led troops, whose officers honestly respect human life and make that part of their objectives, can at least make an honest effort not to kill innocent bystanders.

Yes, it's difficult, which is why the police have those special firing ranges where you have to assess a target before you shoot and lose points if you gun down a civilian. But it's a more successful strategy in the long run. Because if you kill six insurgents by means of such indiscriminate slaughter that a dozen people who weren't against you before join the insurgents to get revenge for their friends and family, then in the long run you are losing.
quote:


And as long as terrorists and insurgents hide among civilians it is going to happen.
By that argument, the only viable tactic for the police is to go in and sweep buildings with machine guns and grenades, since crooks have this habit of hiding among civilians.

Yet somehow they find other ways.
quote:


While I will admit that it is unfortunate that such things happen, it has been going on since the advent of siege engines, siege cannon, field artillery, aerial bombing and atomic weapons.
Which is why people have spent so much effort trying to establish international laws and rules of war to minimise it. And the trouble with tearing up such rules when they don't suit you, is that you can't appeal to them later to condemn people you don't like.



20 cops 2 criminals no rpgs or machine guns no puting mortars on hospitals or machine guns in churches

(in reply to leonine)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Collateral murder - 2/12/2013 1:47:48 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		I think I may have figure out the rub is here...


To the anti-droners.....these machines are NOT autonomous robots out seeking their own targets.....


Unmanned may sound like no person(live human being in real time) is in control of the drone but that is NOT the case.


There is a command structure with multiple people involved in what they do.In fact,there`s MORE scrutiny,MORE eyes on the target,MORE officers that have to sign off on a missile launch,than in manned aircraft.Plus,a small army of intel people gathering the info.

That a LOT more scrutiny that one or two pilots in an Apache



< Message edited by Owner59 -- 2/12/2013 1:49:02 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Collateral murder - 2/12/2013 3:46:24 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Watch THIS... it is a Nova PBS that shows the development and some training of pilots

Butch

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Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Collateral murder - 2/12/2013 4:04:03 PM   
deathtothepixies


Posts: 683
Joined: 2/19/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

I think I may have figure out the rub is here...


To the anti-droners.....these machines are NOT autonomous robots out seeking their own targets.....


Unmanned may sound like no person(live human being in real time) is in control of the drone but that is NOT the case.


There is a command structure with multiple people involved in what they do.In fact,there`s MORE scrutiny,MORE eyes on the target,MORE officers that have to sign off on a missile launch,than in manned aircraft.Plus,a small army of intel people gathering the info.

That a LOT more scrutiny that one or two pilots in an Apache




really didn't think you were that naive

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Collateral murder - 2/12/2013 4:10:36 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Please....offer us a rebuttle,an arguement or some other than a lazy insult.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Collateral murder - 2/12/2013 4:26:15 PM   
deathtothepixies


Posts: 683
Joined: 2/19/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Please....offer us a rebuttle,an arguement or some other than a lazy insult.


the bad guys are dead, osama and saddam are dead, there is no longer a figurehead of evil to catch or kill so why are US service men/women still out there dying? Politically there is no reason for your troops to be fighting this " war on terror" and dying in the process so the best alternative is to use drones. Who cares who gets killed so long as it's not "our guys"?

Fairly soon there will be enough bad press about innocent people dying due to drone attacks and you will have to change tactics but at the moment it is an easy and poltically effective way to wage war.

Does that help?

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Collateral murder - 2/12/2013 4:31:03 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Now who`s naive?


And thanks for pointing out and reafirming that there have NOT been any abuses or misuses of drones by the US.




_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to deathtothepixies)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Collateral murder - 2/12/2013 4:32:54 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

I think I may have figure out the rub is here...


To the anti-droners.....these machines are NOT autonomous robots out seeking their own targets.....


Unmanned may sound like no person(live human being in real time) is in control of the drone but that is NOT the case.


There is a command structure with multiple people involved in what they do.In fact,there`s MORE scrutiny,MORE eyes on the target,MORE officers that have to sign off on a missile launch,than in manned aircraft.Plus,a small army of intel people gathering the info.

That a LOT more scrutiny that one or two pilots in an Apache





But it still doesnt stop poor intel from causing cock ups. The same thing happens with the night raids by special forces. If you read Anthony Shaffers book, he states that the higher ups over ruled him in some cases, when his operatives were not sure the info was correct. This was exactly what happened to cause the drone attack on a wedding party that caused such a furore.

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Collateral murder - 2/12/2013 4:33:59 PM   
deathtothepixies


Posts: 683
Joined: 2/19/2012
Status: offline 		I didn't point that out as it would be a lie

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Collateral murder - 2/12/2013 4:34:47 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Now who`s naive?


And thanks for pointing out and reafirming that there have NOT been any abuses or misuses of drones by the US.





What about Al Alwakis son then ? he was at a meal with teenage friends when killed by a drone strike ?

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Collateral murder - 2/12/2013 4:39:31 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Now who`s naive?


And thanks for pointing out and reafirming that there have NOT been any abuses or misuses of drones by the US.





Owner, do you think that the locals will agree with you?

I'm just thinking that, in a major sense, it's not Americans' opinions that matter here. It's the opinions of those people who might or might not become so enraged by what they see as an injustice that they become tomorrow's furiously anti-American terrorists.

The point being, of course: justice not only has to be done, but seen to be done. And recalling that the present US political administration is not going to be around in four years' time, whereas the US citizenship will be.

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(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Collateral murder - 2/12/2013 4:49:43 PM   
deathtothepixies


Posts: 683
Joined: 2/19/2012
Status: offline 		Unfortunately the majority of the US citizenship has very little idea, and cares possibly even less, of how America is viewed by the rest of the world

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Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Collateral murder - 2/12/2013 4:52:41 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

I think I may have figure out the rub is here...


To the anti-droners.....these machines are NOT autonomous robots out seeking their own targets.....


Unmanned may sound like no person(live human being in real time) is in control of the drone but that is NOT the case.


There is a command structure with multiple people involved in what they do.In fact,there`s MORE scrutiny,MORE eyes on the target,MORE officers that have to sign off on a missile launch,than in manned aircraft.Plus,a small army of intel people gathering the info.

That a LOT more scrutiny that one or two pilots in an Apache





But it still doesnt stop poor intel from causing cock ups. The same thing happens with the night raids by special forces. If you read Anthony Shaffers book, he states that the higher ups over ruled him in some cases, when his operatives were not sure the info was correct. This was exactly what happened to cause the drone attack on a wedding party that caused such a furore.

I agree.


The same mistakes are made w/ manned craft and are just as unacceptable.


There were also a number of tragedies(weddings bombed)caused by men firing ground artillery.


Again......the dead are just as dead, with all the methods......so it`s not the technology but the human error that should to be scrutinized and reduced.


_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Collateral murder - 2/12/2013 5:01:27 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		So what about Al Alwakis son ?

There was no justification for that.

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Collateral murder - 2/12/2013 5:02:19 PM   
deathtothepixies


Posts: 683
Joined: 2/19/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

I think I may have figure out the rub is here...


To the anti-droners.....these machines are NOT autonomous robots out seeking their own targets.....


Unmanned may sound like no person(live human being in real time) is in control of the drone but that is NOT the case.


There is a command structure with multiple people involved in what they do.In fact,there`s MORE scrutiny,MORE eyes on the target,MORE officers that have to sign off on a missile launch,than in manned aircraft.Plus,a small army of intel people gathering the info.

That a LOT more scrutiny that one or two pilots in an Apache





But it still doesnt stop poor intel from causing cock ups. The same thing happens with the night raids by special forces. If you read Anthony Shaffers book, he states that the higher ups over ruled him in some cases, when his operatives were not sure the info was correct. This was exactly what happened to cause the drone attack on a wedding party that caused such a furore.

I agree.


The same mistakes are made w/ manned craft and are just as unacceptable.


There were also a number of tragedies(weddings bombed)caused by men firing ground artillery.


Again......the dead are just as dead, with all the methods......so it`s not the technology but the human error that should to be scrutinized and reduced.


quote:

And thanks for pointing out and reafirming that there have NOT been any abuses or misuses of drones by the US. [/quote

I am not great at this box quote thing but you said



And thanks for pointing out and reafirming that there have NOT been any abuses or misuses of drones by the US.

so which statement is true?





(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Collateral murder - 2/12/2013 5:15:29 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		"Fairly soon there will be"


Which means(if I have my American,errrr.... English correct) that there isn`t, now.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to deathtothepixies)
Profile   Post #: 120
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