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RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/9/2013 2:44:52 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Speak for yourself.

We (in America and the 1st world) enjoy an excellent standard of living and better health,longer lives....etc.


Less people are dying in wars and or terror attacks,from hunger/sickness than ever before.


No one said her work shouldn`t be studied.


What book has anyone ever been required by law(punishable)to be read?


It`s not the book but the fascism that`s off putting.


Yes, this whole affair reminds one again...of the Nazis.

If the youth of the US really understood it as it is...a sort of capitalist manifesto, they'd as likely come to the conclusion that throughout society and in life, there are no truths [not] discovered...but in a pursuit of a profit in the exchange or transfer of wealth from labor to capital.

They'd be better off reading Das Kapital, much more accurate. It almost in a way, proves Rand's theory...but not quite.




< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 2/9/2013 2:48:52 PM >

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RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/9/2013 3:15:29 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Thankfully this piece of legislation wont pass.

Never say that taz. Unfortunately, there are some batshit crazy people out there and they tend to end up in the state house. (On both sides of the aisle).

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RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/9/2013 3:24:15 PM   
tazzygirl


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According to what I have read, it wont make it out of the Senate. You may be right. Lets hope not. Idaho has had lots of problems with constitutionality issues with this same man.

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RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/9/2013 3:37:13 PM   
Powergamz1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

<SNIP>
...What book has anyone ever been required by law(punishable)to be read?


It`s not the book but the fascism that`s off putting.




'None Dare Call It Treason' was required in Florida in the 60s - 70s, wouldn't be surprised if other states had something similar at one time or another.

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RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/9/2013 3:46:56 PM   
Fellow


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quote:

We (in America and the 1st world) enjoy an excellent standard of living and better health,longer lives....etc.



Who are WE? Compare Detroit today and 30 years ago. This is why we need to deal with reality. Here is a quote [Wikipedia]:
Rand characterized Objectivism as "a philosophy for living on earth", grounded in reality, and aimed at defining human nature and the nature of the world in which we live.
My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.
—Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged

Is there anything wrong with these ideas, and is there a need to mention them today? I use public transportation to get to work, I see lot of young zombies fixated to their little electronic devices.


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RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/9/2013 4:25:59 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fellow

quote:

We (in America and the 1st world) enjoy an excellent standard of living and better health,longer lives....etc.



Who are WE? Compare Detroit today and 30 years ago. This is why we need to deal with reality. Here is a quote [Wikipedia]:
Rand characterized Objectivism as "a philosophy for living on earth", grounded in reality, and aimed at defining human nature and the nature of the world in which we live.
My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.
—Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged

Is there anything wrong with these ideas, and is there a need to mention them today? I use public transportation to get to work, I see lot of young zombies fixated to their little electronic devices.



Yes, there is everything wrong with objectivism. It is more simply described as total selfishness. It has led to such absurd notions as getting rid of the social safety net in order to reduce the tax burden. As a mater of fact it is the underlying rot in the conservative movement that has destroyed it as an intellectual force and is what is driving the entire conservative movement out of the political mainstream. In simple terms the most effective weapon ever deployed by the Soviets in their efforts to destroy us as a nation and an ideal is Ayn Rand.

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RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/9/2013 4:52:03 PM   
Lucylastic


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Randians make Alinsky look like Enid Blyton

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RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/9/2013 4:56:22 PM   
Level


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I read Atlas Shrugged, and if someone has the type of personality that likes things very much black and white, I can see how it would appeal to them.

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RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/9/2013 5:08:30 PM   
Baroana


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Nice!!!!!!

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RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/9/2013 5:15:05 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Baroana
I hope they realize that the plan could backfire. Sometimes reading about people who represent the utmost in selfishness can make an idealistic young student turn socialist.
One can only HOPE AND PRAY, lol.
I hated that book. M

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RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/9/2013 5:38:43 PM   
Fellow


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quote:

Yes, there is everything wrong with objectivism. It is more simply described as total selfishness. It has led to such absurd notions as getting rid of the social safety net in order to reduce the tax burden. As a mater of fact it is the underlying rot in the conservative movement that has destroyed it as an intellectual force and is what is driving the entire conservative movement out of the political mainstream. In simple terms the most effective weapon ever deployed by the Soviets in their efforts to destroy us as a nation and an ideal is Ayn Rand.

It is a matter of interpretation what objectivism means. It has to do with individual vs the state issue. I can understand leftist hate the notion of individual initiative and power. For them somehow collective mind makes things happen. I would argue, for young people coming in touch with today's environment, understanding the reality and their place in it is very important. They should reject the dystopian national security corporate police state that is being built for them. Without support the effort can not succeed.

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RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/9/2013 6:03:53 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fellow

quote:

Yes, there is everything wrong with objectivism. It is more simply described as total selfishness. It has led to such absurd notions as getting rid of the social safety net in order to reduce the tax burden. As a mater of fact it is the underlying rot in the conservative movement that has destroyed it as an intellectual force and is what is driving the entire conservative movement out of the political mainstream. In simple terms the most effective weapon ever deployed by the Soviets in their efforts to destroy us as a nation and an ideal is Ayn Rand.

It is a matter of interpretation what objectivism means. It has to do with individual vs the state issue. I can understand leftist hate the notion of individual initiative and power. For them somehow collective mind makes things happen. I would argue, for young people coming in touch with today's environment, understanding the reality and their place in it is very important. They should reject the dystopian national security corporate police state that is being built for them. Without support the effort can not succeed.

Objectivism encourages the police state not protects from it. It inherently says that might makes right and that leads directly to dictatorship.

Selfishness destroys community and community is what has allowed our species to rise to the level it is at now. To destroy our civilization one need but allow selfishness to become the philosophy of the majority.

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RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/9/2013 11:56:49 PM   
Nosathro


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When I was in High School reading was required....I didn't like some of the books but some I did like The Hobbit, The Grapes of Wrath, The Time Machine, The Ox bow Incident, Master of the World, Alice Through the Looking-Glass, Rikki Tikki Tavi and All Creatures Great and Small. I also enjoy reading plays like Death of a Sales Man, The Crucible and Macbeth. I have not read this book so I can't say anything about it, but I do agree that reading should be required.

< Message edited by Nosathro -- 2/10/2013 12:08:41 AM >

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RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/10/2013 12:07:41 AM   
thursdays


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto
John Rogers -

quote:

There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged.

One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world.

The other, of course, involves orcs.



Fucking excellent.

Rand was fabulously fucked up and Atlas Shrugged is one of the stupidest books that I've ever read.

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RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/10/2013 12:42:46 AM   
blacksword404


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fellow

quote:

Yes, there is everything wrong with objectivism. It is more simply described as total selfishness. It has led to such absurd notions as getting rid of the social safety net in order to reduce the tax burden. As a mater of fact it is the underlying rot in the conservative movement that has destroyed it as an intellectual force and is what is driving the entire conservative movement out of the political mainstream. In simple terms the most effective weapon ever deployed by the Soviets in their efforts to destroy us as a nation and an ideal is Ayn Rand.

It is a matter of interpretation what objectivism means. It has to do with individual vs the state issue. I can understand leftist hate the notion of individual initiative and power. For them somehow collective mind makes things happen. I would argue, for young people coming in touch with today's environment, understanding the reality and their place in it is very important. They should reject the dystopian national security corporate police state that is being built for them. Without support the effort can not succeed.

Objectivism encourages the police state not protects from it. It inherently says that might makes right and that leads directly to dictatorship.

Selfishness destroys community and community is what has allowed our species to rise to the level it is at now. To destroy our civilization one need but allow selfishness to become the philosophy of the majority.


You must not have heard what she said about the use of force.

(The only proper purpose of a government is to protect man’s rights, which means: to protect him from physical violence. A proper government is only a policeman, acting as an agent of man’s self-defense, and, as such, may resort to force only against those who start the use of force. The only proper functions of a government are: the police, to protect you from criminals; the army, to protect you from foreign invaders; and the courts, to protect your property and contracts from breach or fraud by others, to settle disputes by rational rules, according to objective law. But a government that initiates the employment of force against men who had forced no one, the employment of armed compulsion against disarmed victims, is a nightmare infernal machine designed to annihilate morality: such a government reverses its only moral purpose and switches from the role of protector to the role of man’s deadliest enemy, from the role of policeman to the role of a criminal vested with the right to the wielding of violence against victims deprived of the right of self-defense. Such a government substitutes for morality the following rule of social conduct: you may do whatever you please to your neighbor, provided your gang is bigger than his.)


http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/government.html


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RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/10/2013 12:55:48 AM   
FatDomDaddy


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OH NO... NOT PROPOSED LEGISLATION!!!


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RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/10/2013 3:09:22 AM   
Fellow


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quote:

Objectivism encourages the police state not protects from it. It inherently says that might makes right and that leads directly to dictatorship.
Selfishness destroys community and community is what has allowed our species to rise to the level it is at now. To destroy our civilization one need but allow selfishness to become the philosophy of the majority.

Again, it is matter of interpretation in order to justify left wing policies. People who live in objective reality and act protecting their self interest do not cooperate with dictatorial powers. Without cooperation dictatorship is impossible. All extreme left created societies like fascism and communism practiced social engineering, individualism was suppressed to the max. Community and self interest can happily live together. We can not trivialize the philosophy. It would be a propaganda.

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RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/10/2013 3:32:33 AM   
tazzygirl


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Yet is it individualism to demand students read a particular book then tell them if they dont pass a test on that book, they dont graduate?

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RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/10/2013 5:29:21 AM   
farglebargle


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I think the real thing here is no-one has asked this Senator to take his copy of Atlas Shrugged and read any text from it which supports The American Family, in fact any text which isn't outright contemptuous of children would suffice.

Of course, that's the Achilles heel, isn't it, that to Randians CHILDREN are the ultimate in parasitic leeches. Believing they're ENTITLED to some benefit from their parent's hard work.

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RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/10/2013 5:54:28 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Yet is it individualism to demand students read a particular book then tell them if they dont pass a test on that book, they dont graduate?


Not going to comment on the individualism of the activity, but this sentiment is precisely why I don't support this sort of thing. It isn't even the book that I'm against, but that a person could be barred from graduation based on one test, on one book. Imagine how the test would be written. Get a bunch of Conservative-types and the questions will all be leading towards this book as second greatest book (the Bible). Get a bunch of Liberal-types and the questions will all be leading towards the point of the book being the bane of humanity.

The only way I could support a bill like this was if the book or topic was a more American Historical book, or a Founding Document. Even that could be hijacked by one party or the other.

Now, I pose a modification of your question back to you: Is the goal of El-Hi schooling individualism?


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