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RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/10/2013 7:33:54 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fellow

quote:

Yes, there is everything wrong with objectivism. It is more simply described as total selfishness. It has led to such absurd notions as getting rid of the social safety net in order to reduce the tax burden. As a mater of fact it is the underlying rot in the conservative movement that has destroyed it as an intellectual force and is what is driving the entire conservative movement out of the political mainstream. In simple terms the most effective weapon ever deployed by the Soviets in their efforts to destroy us as a nation and an ideal is Ayn Rand.

It is a matter of interpretation what objectivism means. It has to do with individual vs the state issue. I can understand leftist hate the notion of individual initiative and power. For them somehow collective mind makes things happen. I would argue, for young people coming in touch with today's environment, understanding the reality and their place in it is very important. They should reject the dystopian national security corporate police state that is being built for them. Without support the effort can not succeed.

Objectivism encourages the police state not protects from it. It inherently says that might makes right and that leads directly to dictatorship.

Selfishness destroys community and community is what has allowed our species to rise to the level it is at now. To destroy our civilization one need but allow selfishness to become the philosophy of the majority.


You must not have heard what she said about the use of force.

(The only proper purpose of a government is to protect man’s rights, which means: to protect him from physical violence. A proper government is only a policeman, acting as an agent of man’s self-defense, and, as such, may resort to force only against those who start the use of force. The only proper functions of a government are: the police, to protect you from criminals; the army, to protect you from foreign invaders; and the courts, to protect your property and contracts from breach or fraud by others, to settle disputes by rational rules, according to objective law. But a government that initiates the employment of force against men who had forced no one, the employment of armed compulsion against disarmed victims, is a nightmare infernal machine designed to annihilate morality: such a government reverses its only moral purpose and switches from the role of protector to the role of man’s deadliest enemy, from the role of policeman to the role of a criminal vested with the right to the wielding of violence against victims deprived of the right of self-defense. Such a government substitutes for morality the following rule of social conduct: you may do whatever you please to your neighbor, provided your gang is bigger than his.)


http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/government.html


She said a lot of stuff that doesn't match up with her philosophy. Under objectivism the successful should be able to do pretty much anything which includes the use of violence, see the campaign of terrorism implemented by Galt in Atlas Shrugged. Since she is arguing that the successful should be in absolute control that is obviously an argument that the government should use violence and threat of violence to control the mass of society which is a police state.

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RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/10/2013 8:00:23 AM   
blacksword404


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I've never seen anything like that in atlas shrugged. You got some text of that? Atlas shrugged was the exact opposite of that. The looters used government force to take and control the people. You sure you're remembering the right book?


Ragnar Danneskjöld attacked the looters and returned what was stolen to who it was stolen from. Which is the purpose of the law. To make you whole.

And when the looters tried to make money off the work of others, the goods were blown up. (copyright protection)


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RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/10/2013 8:56:07 AM   
Powergamz1


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Just like any other work of Scripture...

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RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/10/2013 9:01:39 AM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Baroana

Does anyone really give a shit about Idaho?

I can think of one former poster who did


but in the larger sense,no.....no one gives a shit about Idaho(though they do have potatoes....lol)

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RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/10/2013 9:02:29 AM   
Baroana


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u


quote:

ORIGINAL: Baroana

Does anyone really give a shit about Idaho?

I can think of one former poster who did


but in the larger sense,no.....no one gives a shit about Idaho(though they do have potatoes....lol)



Exactly. When this happens in a real state, call me.

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RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/10/2013 9:06:10 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404

I've never seen anything like that in atlas shrugged. You got some text of that? Atlas shrugged was the exact opposite of that. The looters used government force to take and control the people. You sure you're remembering the right book?


Ragnar Danneskjöld attacked the looters and returned what was stolen to who it was stolen from. Which is the purpose of the law. To make you whole.

And when the looters tried to make money off the work of others, the goods were blown up. (copyright protection)


Blowing stuff up isn't violence? What about the raid into NYC to rescue Galt?

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RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/10/2013 9:21:10 AM   
Moonhead


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Or the fact that nobody paid any attention to Galt's plutocrat strike until his little gang of followers start blowing stuff up in the first place, come to that...

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RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/10/2013 12:05:10 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Or the fact that nobody paid any attention to Galt's plutocrat strike until his little gang of followers start blowing stuff up in the first place, come to that...

Exactly.

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RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/10/2013 12:25:40 PM   
thezeppo


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It wasn't my cup of tea, but its a book that seems to be referenced more and more. Am I right in saying it has become heavily associated with the Tea Party movement? If that's the case then I can see why it would have a place, maybe for college age children (16-18). Required reading though? I'm not convinced it's that vital to understanding American culture.

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RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/10/2013 12:52:08 PM   
Moonhead


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If I was feeling snarky, I'd point out that as Rand didn't seem to have a much of a grasp of American culture herself, the book's a dead loss for any help with that one.


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RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/10/2013 12:53:20 PM   
jlf1961


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Wouldnt the kids be better off reading the Kama Sutra?

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RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/10/2013 12:57:40 PM   
Moonhead


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People read that one? I thought it was just there so that you could look at the pictures...

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RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/10/2013 1:00:36 PM   
hlen5


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

Two comments people submitted to the original on-line newspaper article:

Reader Comment One:

quote:

High School students should read Margeret Atwood's 'A Handmaid's Tale' instead, and warn them that if they don't vote, Right Wing Christian zealots could 'take back their country' - all the way back to the middle ages, as portrayed in the novel.


Reader Comment Two:

quote:

I can see why "Atlas Shrugged" would appeal to adolescents. At it's core the novel is a justification for selfishness and a self-centered world view. Not hard to imagine teenagers would embrace such simplicity.

Hopefully teachers, like myself, provide context to augment the teaching of the novel that includes a biography of the author.

They need to know she died of lung cancer after decades of methamphetamine abuse and cigarette smoking. She kept her husband as a cuckold, enjoying a extra-marital affair lasting, again, decades, with a bleary eyed young sycophant. In her waning years, riddled with cancer, she committed Medicare fraud using a servant's identity to obtain health care benefits she never contributed to and railed against.



I find Rand's hypocrisy hilarious.

I wonder how far the right could come to achieving their own "Gilead ( The Handmaid's Tale)" if they had their way. Another round of hypocrisy.

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RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/10/2013 2:10:05 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
People read that one? I thought it was just there so that you could look at the pictures...


There are words?!?


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RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/10/2013 2:20:36 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

People read that one? I thought it was just there so that you could look at the pictures...



The pictures are only fun for people who enjoy dislocating their limbs.

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RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/10/2013 2:22:09 PM   
Moonhead


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I said "look at" not "emulate".

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RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/10/2013 3:06:39 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
I'd bracket Atlas Shrugged with the more shitawfully quasi literate end of early SF than with "great books" myself: it might be vaguely interesting on an ideological level, but it has nothing to recommend it on a literary level. The characters are thinner than karen Carpenter ten minutes after she starved herself to death, most of the dialogue appears to have been translated from Klingon by babelfish, the prose reads ;like the work of a Sun reader with a fractured skull, and the plot is almost invisible.
If that qualifies as a "great book", then so does Battlefield Earth.

That still sounds better than I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings.

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RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/10/2013 3:09:11 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Wouldnt the kids be better off reading the Kama Sutra?

Frankly I found that book underwhelming.

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RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/10/2013 3:16:48 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
I'd bracket Atlas Shrugged with the more shitawfully quasi literate end of early SF than with "great books" myself: it might be vaguely interesting on an ideological level, but it has nothing to recommend it on a literary level. The characters are thinner than karen Carpenter ten minutes after she starved herself to death, most of the dialogue appears to have been translated from Klingon by babelfish, the prose reads ;like the work of a Sun reader with a fractured skull, and the plot is almost invisible.
If that qualifies as a "great book", then so does Battlefield Earth.

That still sounds better than I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings.

Surely that piece of whiney drivel isn't on any school required reading lists?

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RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand�... - 2/11/2013 12:30:40 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
That still sounds better than I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings.

Surely that piece of whiney drivel isn't on any school required reading lists?


I had a freshman english teacher who I suspect was really fucked up, all her book choices were fairly inappropriate.

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