RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand’s ‘Atlas Shrugged’ (Full Version)

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Zonie63 -> RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand’s ‘Atlas Shrugged’ (2/12/2013 9:36:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR

Of course, what this GOP legislator may not be considering is that assigning kids a book is one of the best ways to make them hate it.


My thought exactly.

Just a side note: is anyone in the USA aware of just how little Ayn Rand is cared about elsewhere? She doesn't figure on any course in politics (or literature, or anything else) that I know of here in the UK. She's unknown. Her writings don't matter. Surely, educators would want *internationally* respected authors to be on any syllabus? Just a thought.


I never really heard much about her until I started encountering her fans on various internet sites since the mid 1990s. I had heard her name before, but I was never required to read any of her books in any classes I attended. I don't think her writings ever really mattered much here either, except that there does seem to be a rather staunch and stalwart fan base, particularly among conservative economists and politicians. They strike me as being rather headstrong and absolutely convinced that they're right.

I'm not sure she's that popular amongst the religious right, so it strikes me as odd that this would come up in Idaho of all places.




xssve -> RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand’s ‘Atlas Shrugged’ (2/12/2013 9:54:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Baroana

Does anyone really give a shit about Idaho?

We could build a wall around it.



Fightdirecto -> RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand’s ‘Atlas Shrugged’ (2/12/2013 10:33:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
I wonder what conservatives would do/say, if we required students to read and understand actual scientific journals? Or economic journals? Or study the actual quotes of previous founding fathers and be able to tell the difference between a dude whom lived in the 18th century and one written in the 20th or 21th century. I imagine conservatives would get very angry that we are teaching our youth....TO THINK FOR THEMSELVES!



[image]local://upfiles/42188/2A07492165F74E41BB77845C385162E8.jpg[/image]



GotSteel -> RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand’s ‘Atlas Shrugged’ (2/12/2013 11:48:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
I imagine conservatives would get very angry that we are teaching our youth....TO THINK FOR THEMSELVES!


The Texas GOP has already taken a stand against critical thinking in their party platform.



GotSteel -> RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand’s ‘Atlas Shrugged’ (2/12/2013 11:51:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
I don't know any conservatives who would be against training our youth to be able to critically read/review scientific or economic journals.


*cough* Texas GOP *cough*



GotSteel -> RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand’s ‘Atlas Shrugged’ (2/12/2013 12:10:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
Well I am conservative and I wouldn't have a problem with any of that. So I imagine you don't have a clue what most conservatives would think.


As I understand it there are different kinds of conservatives. Those which find your existence abhorrent are the type likely to take issue with people being able to think for themselves. I think they tend to fall within the social type of conservative.



DesideriScuri -> RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand’s ‘Atlas Shrugged’ (2/12/2013 5:59:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
I don't know any conservatives who would be against training our youth to be able to critically read/review scientific or economic journals.

*cough* Texas GOP *cough*


And, I don't know any of them.

<passes GotSteel a Ricola>



slvemike4u -> RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand’s ‘Atlas Shrugged’ (2/12/2013 6:02:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
I don't know any conservatives who would be against training our youth to be able to critically read/review scientific or economic journals.

*cough* Texas GOP *cough*


And, I don't know any of them.

<passes GotSteel a Ricola>


Cliff Clavin tried that stunt on Jeopardy once,it didn't work for him than ,nor you now [:D]



kalikshama -> RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand's 'Atlas Shrugged' (2/13/2013 6:20:35 AM)

quote:

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/418458/august-29-2012/ayn-rand---paul-ryan


"Ayn Rand fan-fiction - the Republican budget."

[sm=rofl.gif][sm=rofl.gif][sm=rofl.gif][sm=rofl.gif][sm=rofl.gif]



DesideriScuri -> RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand’s ‘Atlas Shrugged’ (2/13/2013 9:34:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
I don't know any conservatives who would be against training our youth to be able to critically read/review scientific or economic journals.

*cough* Texas GOP *cough*

And, I don't know any of them.
<passes GotSteel a Ricola>

Cliff Clavin tried that stunt on Jeopardy once,it didn't work for him than ,nor you now [:D]


Had I said, "I don't know of any conservatives," that would be one thing. But, I didn't. I said I didn't know any. And, it's still true. I don't know any.

We've already been over the whole Texas Republican Platform garbage anyway. And, if you'd like to go look it up, I said something to the effect that either the PR guy was right and they were absolutely stuck for 2 years (until the next party platform vote), or that was just the excuse used to cover their asses while leaving it in place. I don't think the Texas GOP truly wants kids to not be able to think critically. I also said that I don't think whoever wrote that plank was thinking critically about what he/she was writing.

Are we back to the whole, "if one group believes something, it's true for the whole party" bullshit again? I mean, that would mean that Obama is all for communism, socialism, fascism, dictatorship, etc. I guarantee you there are people within the Democrat party that support those ideas.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joether
I imagine conservatives would get very angry that we are teaching our youth....TO THINK FOR THEMSELVES!


And, what I stated was that I don't know any conservatives that would be against that. Hell, I imagine there is a super-majority among conservatives that would rather the kids be taught how to critically think.



slvemike4u -> RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand’s ‘Atlas Shrugged’ (2/13/2013 11:32:15 AM)

And none of those people were ever in Cliff Clavin's kitchen....you can ask his mother,she will verify it [:D]



Moonhead -> RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand’s ‘Atlas Shrugged’ (2/13/2013 12:51:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Are we back to the whole, "if one group believes something, it's true for the whole party" bullshit again? I mean, that would mean that Obama is all for communism, socialism, fascism, dictatorship, etc. I guarantee you there are people within the Democrat party that support those ideas.

Maybe you should name a few, then?
The Kenyan, and the rest of his party are all right centre to hard right spineless grovellers, just like the other party.
They just make less noise about it...



slvemike4u -> RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand’s ‘Atlas Shrugged’ (2/13/2013 1:11:05 PM)

Okay DS,let me take you off the hook here.

Check out the Cheers episode wherein Cliff goes on Jeopardy.....and is kicking ass.
He is leaps and bounds ahead entering Final Jeopardy,can't be caught ....all he has to do is nothing,don't bet,don't answer...do nothing and win


Of course being Cliff that is asking way too much.....anyway the answer is the real names of Cary Grant,Lucille Ball and Tony Curtis.(I have forgotten the question,although Archibald Leach is the Cary Grant portion)

Cliff is flummoxed.....but he comes up with "Three people that were never in my kitchen"
Tecnicallty,of course,he is correct.....lol,but he loses anyway.



jlf1961 -> RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand’s ‘Atlas Shrugged’ (2/13/2013 1:16:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
I imagine conservatives would get very angry that we are teaching our youth....TO THINK FOR THEMSELVES!


The Texas GOP has already taken a stand against critical thinking in their party platform.



No shit, and there aint enough people in the state to fight that trend either.



PeonForHer -> RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand’s ‘Atlas Shrugged’ (2/13/2013 1:21:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

The Kenyan, and the rest of his party are all right centre to hard right spineless grovellers, just like the other party.


Eh? I thought ElChupa was saying that they're all Kapital-carrying commies.

You know, I've taught politics to Americans who've visited. They actually have a really hard time of it because their most fundamental categories - even of things like 'right' and 'left' - are so different to ours. 'Socialist' and 'communist' have been synonyms to them; 'liberal' has meant 'lefty' to them. As for the term 'social democracy' - that's just scrambled their brains. When trying to explain it, I've realised that to their ears it's like I'm trying to describe the offspring of a bonk between Jesus and Satan.



Moonhead -> RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand’s ‘Atlas Shrugged’ (2/13/2013 1:26:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
You know, I've taught politics to Americans who've visited. They actually have a really hard time of it because their most fundamental categories - even of things like 'right' and 'left' - are so different to ours.

They're not, actually. It's more that the Americans who bray loudest about that don't have a fucking clue what they're talking about: hence all of this ridiculous crap about the Kenyan being a Marxist rather than the Chimp's third term. If he'd closed down the prison camps and tried the inmates, stopped throwing money at the bankers with both hands, forced a single payer provision through on the ACA, and told Israel to go fuck themselves rather than keeping the foreign aid flowing, I might buy that line, but as things stand, forget it.



GotSteel -> RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand’s ‘Atlas Shrugged’ (2/13/2013 5:32:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
I don't think the Texas GOP truly wants kids to not be able to think critically.


They've been quite clear, that's exactly what they want. They even issued a clarification where they changed the wording and doubled down on the meaning.

Face it, among religious conservatives there's a long standing tendency toward being uncomfortable with if not being completely opposed to the questioning of their traditional beliefs.



DesideriScuri -> RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand’s ‘Atlas Shrugged’ (2/13/2013 6:43:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
Okay DS,let me take you off the hook here.
Check out the Cheers episode wherein Cliff goes on Jeopardy.....and is kicking ass.
He is leaps and bounds ahead entering Final Jeopardy,can't be caught ....all he has to do is nothing,don't bet,don't answer...do nothing and win
Of course being Cliff that is asking way too much.....anyway the answer is the real names of Cary Grant,Lucille Ball and Tony Curtis.(I have forgotten the question,although Archibald Leach is the Cary Grant portion)
Cliff is flummoxed.....but he comes up with "Three people that were never in my kitchen"
Tecnicallty,of course,he is correct.....lol,but he loses anyway.


I figured it was something like that, but thanks, Mike.

I don't speak for all conservatives, all those in the GOP, or everyone in the Libertarian Party. I can only speak to what I know, and I don't know any conservatives that don't want their children to be able to think critically. It's quite the contrary, actually.



DesideriScuri -> RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand’s ‘Atlas Shrugged’ (2/13/2013 6:58:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
I don't think the Texas GOP truly wants kids to not be able to think critically.

They've been quite clear, that's exactly what they want. They even issued a clarification where they changed the wording and doubled down on the meaning.
Face it, among religious conservatives there's a long standing tendency toward being uncomfortable with if not being completely opposed to the questioning of their traditional beliefs.


Doubled down on the meaning? I would like to see proof of that.

That's not the gist of this article. The original party plank:
    quote:

    nowledge-Based Education – We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.


The explanation:
    quote:

    "The platform plank is against a specific type of teaching called 'outcome-based education,'" explained Munisteri. "The reason why critical thinking is mentioned is some places try to disguise the program of outcome-based education and just re-label it as 'critical thinking.'"
    "The fear is that if you choose an outcome, which is a set of values or goals, and that the correct answer always has to be these, that what that could foster is an educational system that's basically redefining values for children different than maybe what their parents or their community teaches them," said Munisteri. "A better to do things is to say, 'Here are the facts on different issues, you make your own conclusions.'"
    Some fear "outcome-based education" could be used by instructors to steer students towards a specific view of subjects from economic policy to social issues.
    "An argument could be made that 'outcome-based education' actually causes children to think less," Munisteri said. "Because what it does is give them the goals and the conclusions first and teaches those, as opposed to traditional methods where you give kids the facts and information so they make their own conclusions."


Apparently, what the Republican Party Platform is really supporting is actually fostering critical thinking skills. You can keep spewing your rhetoric and spin the statements. It is clear from that article that they want kids to learn critical thinking skills.



DomKen -> RE: Bill Would Require All Idaho Kids To Read Ayn Rand’s ‘Atlas Shrugged’ (2/13/2013 8:12:42 PM)

No. By opposing OBE they are saying that direct instruction of facts is the only acceptable teaching method and that teaching cildren to think critically is forbidden. They just lied about what OBE was in an attempt to obfuscate the matter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outcome-based_education



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