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RE: Hypnosis, Psychology and NLP in D/s relationships. - 2/16/2013 2:06:52 PM   
MissAnnabelGrace


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Extravagasm

quote:

MissAnabelGrace: I considered it in the use of those who enjoy being humiliated, but on consideration, they would be expecting the humiliation, which, in turn would likely hold the subject back in the first instance.
I then considered it's use in allowing someone the freedom to break boundaries created by social stigma in a D/s relationship, the trouble is . . . they too would be aware of what you were trying to achieve which would yield different results to those who didn't know.

Drawing on graduate work in methodology and philosophy of science to assist here.

The population which enjoys being humiliated already, would not require your special skills to begin with, so they are not at issue.
The population which are inhibited by social stigma are still good candidates for your techniques. That their foreknowledge might differ results (as you note) is not fatal here because this is no double blind experimental test to establish a scientific truth. It's a procedure.

For example drugs are tested double blind to eliminate the placebo and hawthorn effects, etc. But once the drugs are established as efficacious, then they need not be administered blind to future patients. The same is true with medical procedures. And with psychological therapies.
In your instance, if the lack of stealth strengthens or weakens the effect, so what? You will be aware enough to control it. Not opposed to caution. Only making a fair distinction here.

You'd be correct, it is a procedure and not a scientific truth! I'd now be interested to see just how the results with stealth and without differ. I think I may put some form of trial together to find out. Although I'd be aware enough to control it, I'd also be keen to see in what ways I could control it and to what extent. Again, great input and very much appreciated.

(in reply to Extravagasm)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Hypnosis, Psychology and NLP in D/s relationships. - 2/16/2013 2:17:53 PM   
MissAnnabelGrace


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissAnnabelGrace
What are your experiences and views? Please share as I'm intrigued.

You lost me as soon as you mentioned "study" and "NLP" in the same context. When I went to an actual institute of education the library there had some choice things to say about NLP. Do you actually have some sort of scholarly text on it??? I mean something that is published and peer reviewed. I wasn't able to find anything like that... just people saying that wanted to write a paper on NLP but couldn't because it's the modern equivalent of EST.

In general, I doubt that parlor tricks can add any sort of effectiveness but I'm sure they can add fun. So my general feel is that if folks groove on this stuff then more power to them.


I found this post quite ironic! I did used to have some scholarly text on the subject as (and this is what I found ironic) I wrote a dissertation on the evolution of magic during the 19th century (the parlour kind) and found published works by Bandler well studying for the dissertation which sparked my interest in NLP all those years ago. I ate up everything I could find on the subject at the time. As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, the conservative side of the scientific community generally frown upon NLP, and, it has become a very diluted field. I only use a few of the techniques as much of what I read was garbage, but the few techniques I do use are very effective.
If you want actual papers, I know there are many at UCLA that were published.

(in reply to JeffBC)
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RE: Hypnosis, Psychology and NLP in D/s relationships. - 2/16/2013 2:19:17 PM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissAnnabelGrace
The old train of thought was 'You can't make people do things they don't want to under Hypnosis'

I'm agreeing with your skepticism of this statement. The issue I have is how it neatly trips right over the whole question of "what they want". Most people that I know of want lots and lots of things... many of them in conflict with one another... many of them unknown or unacknowledged. The statement as given makes it sound like "what I want" can be neatly understood and quantified. Human minds aren't computers and they don't work work in boolean terms.

The next issue I have, exactly as you noted, is that "what someone wants" can be changed. I do that all the time with Carol. In point of fact, I'm fairly certain that what happens between Carol and I is very similar to a hypnotic state... just without all the bells and whistles. But there are specific commands I give her when I want her to open her mind and simply accept a new viewpoint/idea/whatever. It can't be that much different than hypnosis and yes, it's not as nice & neat as the bit I quoted above would indicate.

This is why I say that I don't "deal in consent" within our marriage.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Hypnosis, Psychology and NLP in D/s relationships. - 2/16/2013 2:35:13 PM   
evesgrden


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Status: offline 		There may be what some consider scholarly works, and they may be published and they may even be peer reviewed.

What they won't be is empirical. You won't find discussions on sampling bias, threats to valildity or reliability, control groups, even a test of the null hypothesis. What's out there is anecdotal at best and has about the same scientific rigor as prayer.

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What you permit, you promote.

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RE: Hypnosis, Psychology and NLP in D/s relationships. - 2/16/2013 2:58:16 PM   
MissAnnabelGrace


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Joined: 2/12/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissAnnabelGrace
The old train of thought was 'You can't make people do things they don't want to under Hypnosis'

I'm agreeing with your skepticism of this statement. The issue I have is how it neatly trips right over the whole question of "what they want". Most people that I know of want lots and lots of things... many of them in conflict with one another... many of them unknown or unacknowledged. The statement as given makes it sound like "what I want" can be neatly understood and quantified. Human minds aren't computers and they don't work work in boolean terms.

The next issue I have, exactly as you noted, is that "what someone wants" can be changed. I do that all the time with Carol. In point of fact, I'm fairly certain that what happens between Carol and I is very similar to a hypnotic state... just without all the bells and whistles. But there are specific commands I give her when I want her to open her mind and simply accept a new viewpoint/idea/whatever. It can't be that much different than hypnosis and yes, it's not as nice & neat as the bit I quoted above would indicate.

This is why I say that I don't "deal in consent" within our marriage.


When I made that statement, I meant it in an extreme sense, hence why I mentioned it in terms of an assassination. I don't know what you and Carol do, but I've discovered Hypnosis/suggestion and the D/s world as a whole have many similarities, that's why I was keen to start a thread on the topic.

quote:

There may be what some consider scholarly works, and they may be published and they may even be peer reviewed.

What they won't be is empirical. You won't find discussions on sampling bias, threats to valildity or reliability, control groups, even a test of the null hypothesis. What's out there is anecdotal at best and has about the same scientific rigor as prayer.


I'm sure if you look in the right places you'll find all of those things. But I don't claim to be a poster girl for NLP, because I'm inclined to agree that much of it is tosh. I can pinpoint a couple of techniques that I've used that have been successful, and, I'll write about them tomorrow. Anything on suggestion, social engineering and body language is worth a read prior to reading anything NLP related as it allows you to quickly put the tosh to one side and pull out the few techniques worth knowing.

(in reply to JeffBC)
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RE: Hypnosis, Psychology and NLP in D/s relationships. - 2/16/2013 4:06:44 PM   
Extravagasm


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quote:

evesgrden: There may be what some consider scholarly works, and they may be published and they may even be peer reviewed.
What they won't be is empirical. You won't find discussions on sampling bias, threats to valildity or reliability, control groups, even a test of the null hypothesis. What's out there is anecdotal at best and has about the same scientific rigor as prayer.

Not weighing in on your content, evesgrden. Just a minor point about scientific language. Empirical means from evidence rather than from reasoning. That's all it means. Came from the scientific revolution when the emphasis on evidence still had to be fought for. Almost all study these days is empirical. The word is misused to mean validity, rigorousness or legitimacy. I've heard drug reps misuse it too.
Mean no offense. You made your point clear in the subsequent sentence. A good list (I would also add Replicability to it). If you're like me, you're often informing others which science is legitimate and which is not. Only in that context, is it worth getting the meaning of empirical exactly right. . . Just saying.
For example those nun studies about prayer improving the patient prognosis, are empirical (meaning they're not thought up, guessed at, or reasoned from scripture). But they're still not rigorous, random-sampled, double blind, excluding threat to validity, etc. So not fully valid. Peace.




(in reply to evesgrden)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Hypnosis, Psychology and NLP in D/s relationships. - 2/16/2013 5:29:29 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan

I know who Tony is but I haven't read his work. Do his books explain how to do NLP on others? I thought they were geared toward self-help without necessarily explaining the techniques. I admit this could easily be an incorrect impression.

The foundation for what became NLP was laid in The Structure of Magic by Richard Bandler and John Grinder. The first book of this two-volume set makes for fascinating reading whether or not someone is interested in NLP.

Another input to what became NLP is the work of Milton Erikson, and another book that makes for fascinating reading whether or not someone is interested in NLP is Uncommon Therapy: The Psychiatric Techniques of Milton H. Erickson, M.D. by Jay Haley.

Bandler and Grinder pulled their ideas together in Frogs into Princes, which I would rank as probably the premier book on NLP. In the years that followed, NLP metamorphosed into a disorganized grab bag of techniques that triggered a lot of justified skepticism.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 2/16/2013 6:06:37 PM >

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RE: Hypnosis, Psychology and NLP in D/s relationships. - 2/16/2013 6:00:43 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissAnnabelGrace

the reason he would say 'Pretend to be hypnotized' is to remove the fear of not being hypnotized as the fear is counter active

You're probably right. It's difficult to say without knowing if the quote is precisely accurate. But there could be more going on. One of Erikson's techniques was to slip directives into the subconscious without the conscious mind noticing. For example, "Just pretend you are going into a trance." A slight alteration of tone or cadence gives: "Just pretend you are going into a trance."

An even more powerful technique involves confusing the conscious mind by presenting it with a broken surface structure: "Just pretend go into a trance now." This distracts the conscious mind from the embedded directive because it automatically turns to repairing the structure instead, hearing: "Just pretend to go into a trance now." The embedded directive is completely unnoticed.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 2/16/2013 6:12:38 PM >

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RE: Hypnosis, Psychology and NLP in D/s relationships. - 2/16/2013 6:12:33 PM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
For example, "Just pretend you are going into a trance." A slight alteration of tone or cadence gives: "Just pretend you are going into a trance now."

And what occurs to me even more directly is that "a trance" is a mental state. That means the line between "pretending" and "being" can be razor thin.

BTW: That stuff on NLP was interesting Kirata. Your commentary "a disorganized grab bag of techniques that triggered a lot of justified skepticism." pretty much mirrors what I read. That is to say... no testable hypothesis... no science... and not even any real common themes. Given how spot on you were with that it makes me want to read the other references you brought up. It is obviously true that it is possible to be "highly influential". English even has a specific word for it -- "charismatic". There must be some underlying rules to how that works. It'd be nice to find some science cloaked in all the science rather than the usual drill of finding mysticism wrapped in pseudo-science.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Hypnosis, Psychology and NLP in D/s relationships. - 2/16/2013 8:34:37 PM   
TAFKAA


Posts: 382
Joined: 1/5/2013
Status: offline 		Roche, I've told you before - desperation is unattractive. You really do need to develop some standards.

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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Hypnosis, Psychology and NLP in D/s relationships. - 2/17/2013 4:34:12 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		Using FR:

About five years ago when I was DJing on IRC Bondage, one of the rooms I DJed in was called Hypnorealm. It was for those who brought hypnosis into their BDSM interactions.

When first there, I thought the entire concept was bull shit. The idea of hypnotizing someone by phone or online was ridiculous to me. I saw the room's 'dominant' members as manipulative users pandering to wannabe subs. It was common for such subs to come in and announce "I want to be hypnotized." So I saw the whole thing as some odd form of roleplay.

As I came to know some of the members who actually knew something about hypnosis, I learned a great deal about how many dominants use hypnosis and no doubt NLP techniques without even knowing it.

BTW, for those who don't know it, NLP stands for neuro-linguistic programming.

NLP was debunked as psuedo science back in the 60s, yet I am quite sure many of the techniques are used by psychologists, hypnotists, salespeople, and con artists, among others. Both hypnosis and NLP overlap in many ways and can be used by those who wish to manipulate others.

Let's face it, most who wish to manipulate others do it for their own gain.

Having said that, I think a huge part of being a successful dominant is knowing how to manipulate others (hopefully in a good way). Learning some basic hypnosis and NLP skills and acquiring a good grounding in human psychology and social engineering is very helpful for any dominant.

< Message edited by ChatteParfaitt -- 2/17/2013 4:38:06 AM >

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RE: Hypnosis, Psychology and NLP in D/s relationships. - 2/17/2013 5:03:54 AM   
homohypno


Posts: 13
Joined: 2/10/2013
Status: offline 		Not sure NLP was around in the 60s and what was was very basic.

It is being developed all the time so when people say that it's been debunked, that can only be up to a certain point.

Debunked or not, the techniques are used to get success by therapist, hypno and otherwise, sales people and of course con men.

I use NLP techniques all the time as part of my job and find them really useful.

I generally though believe in trying something and seeing if it works for me before I say that it doesn't work.

Hypnosis on the other hand as been around for 1000s of years and there is a huge amount of data and research in the area. I have worked with many dentists and doctors who use hypnosis as part of their work with patients.


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RE: Hypnosis, Psychology and NLP in D/s relationships. - 2/17/2013 5:52:53 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
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From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		Excuse me, make that the 70s.

The thing about NLP is that individual response is so variable, it's hard to gain empirical knowledge on the subject as a whole. A major component of gaining empirical knowledge is setting up a solid study with controllable variables. I'm not sure that's possible given our limited understanding of human psychology at this time.

After all, most of our communication is not linguistic. In order to be a successful communicator, you have to be skilled at reading body language as well. Being knowledgeable about hypnosis and NLP techniques won't help you be persuasive if you can't read basic body language.





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RE: Hypnosis, Psychology and NLP in D/s relationships. - 2/17/2013 5:58:05 AM   
homohypno


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Status: offline 		That is true about empirical research, the same goes for behavioural psychology yet that doesn't get anywhere near the same amount of stick as NLP.

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RE: Hypnosis, Psychology and NLP in D/s relationships. - 2/17/2013 6:02:47 AM   
absolutchocolat


Posts: 1392
Status: offline 		Without giving us your name or any articles that you specifically have written, can you point us to scholarly articles on the subject? I appreciate Kirata's book suggestions, but I, like Awareness, need a bit of empirical proof. Until then, I remain skeptical about this whole thing.

(in reply to MissAnnabelGrace)
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RE: Hypnosis, Psychology and NLP in D/s relationships. - 2/17/2013 6:10:48 AM   
homohypno


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Status: offline 		http://www.quora.com/Neuro-Linguistic-Programming/What-are-some-bad-things-about-Neuro-Linguistic-Programming

This is pretty interesting, certainly the idea that NLP is not one central idea, not one thing, it's evolving and changing as are all good psychological approaches.

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RE: Hypnosis, Psychology and NLP in D/s relationships. - 2/17/2013 6:49:45 AM   
orgasmdenial12


Posts: 613
Joined: 9/18/2012
Status: offline 		Personally I think they're at the level of quack medicine, I have no interest in them or any Dom who practices them and I have no belief in their validity or potency. If other people enjoy that, then more power to them - but I personally think it's a load of rubbish.

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Hypnosis, Psychology and NLP in D/s relationships. - 2/17/2013 6:51:07 AM   
homohypno


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Joined: 2/10/2013
Status: offline 		No interest at all? And yet you felt the urge to share that view on this thread, and I'm guessing you read most of the threat too? No interest at all it is then ;)

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Hypnosis, Psychology and NLP in D/s relationships. - 2/17/2013 7:33:34 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		Your response is very interesting considering your nick. I assume you are into not just orgasm denial but orgasm control as well.

A dom who has achieved any sort of success with denial and control is almost certainly using hypnosis and NLP techniques, though they may not know it.

These are all manipulation techniques, and controlling and denying orgasm is, let's face it, a way to both physically and mentally manipulate someone.

But that's just my perspective to each his own, your mileage my vary, etc, etc.



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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Hypnosis, Psychology and NLP in D/s relationships. - 2/17/2013 7:38:34 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: homohypno

No interest at all? And yet you felt the urge to share that view on this thread, and I'm guessing you read most of the threat too? No interest at all it is then ;)


My bold.

Was that a typo (and maybe a Freudian slip) or were you up to some little hypno trick there, HH?

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Profile   Post #: 60
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