quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

the Fed is always independently audited.

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ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: TAFKAA

Conspiracy theorists debunk themselves. Most of them are simpletons parroting nonsense they've been told by other conspiracy theorists. No debunking required.

Course that's not true. That's like saying there has been no conspiracies and we all know there have been many very successful conspiracies.

I've got to stop you there. It's certainly a valid point that not every conspiracy theory is immediately self debunking. But it seems as though TAFKAA has acknowledged this with the qualifier "most".

You can't validly ignore that conditional qualifier, it's an important part of his position.


Personally I don't know if it's a matter of "most" or just many but there's a notable pattern of conspiracy theorists having issues with logical thought. Things like circular reasoning and appeals to paranoia tend to show up, but this is my favorite:

quote:

ORIGINAL: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/29/flat-earth-society-psychology_n_2038198.html
The theory follows from a mode of thought called the "Zetetic Method," an alternative to the scientific method, developed by a 19th-century flat-earther, in which sensory observations reign supreme. "Broadly, the method places a lot of emphasis on reconciling empiricism and rationalism, and making logical deductions based on empirical data," Flat Earth Society vice president Michael Wilmore, an Irishman, told Life's Little Mysteries. In Zetetic astronomy, the perception that Earth is flat leads to the deduction that it must actually be flat; the antimoon, NASA conspiracy and all the rest of it are just rationalizations for how that might work in practice.

These guys have recognized that their conspiracy theory fails so soundly according to accepted methods of evaluating evidence that they've gone and invented their own method to prop up the conspiracy theory.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
For 1500-2000 years, mankind just knew...the world was in fact...flat...

quote:

ORIGINAL: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_Earth
The concept of a spherical Earth dates back to ancient Greek philosophy from around the 6th century BC,[1] but remained a matter of philosophical speculation until the 3rd century BC when Hellenistic astronomy established the spherical shape of the earth as a physical given.

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ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
For example, what were the 'accepted methods' for determining that the world was flat...

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ORIGINAL: GotSteel

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ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
For 1500-2000 years, mankind just knew...the world was in fact...flat...

I seem to recall pointing out last time that the common myth about flat earth knowledge is actually an urban legend.

quote:

ORIGINAL: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_Earth
The concept of a spherical Earth dates back to ancient Greek philosophy from around the 6th century BC,[1] but remained a matter of philosophical speculation until the 3rd century BC when Hellenistic astronomy established the spherical shape of the earth as a physical given.

So as you can see knowledge of a spherical-ish earth vastly predates science in any sense of the word remotely close to the modern methodology.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
For example, what were the 'accepted methods' for determining that the world was flat...

Superstition.

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ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
The whole concept became moot when after the corruption of the 19th century inspired the great argument for a federal banking system despite most founding fathers' apprehensions. The problem arises when any country has no substantive backing or static value to currency such as gold or silver.

Paper and its value becomes shall we say...malleable.

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ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
That the earth was the center of the universe was a fact for much longer. I didn't even need to look through Galileo's telescope, I just knew and the world 'just knew' that everything out there revolved around the world. Those were the empirical facts.

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ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
Fact is, power tells you what they want you to know and is far, far too often accepted as fact. Science today is far too often misused in attempts to obscure or deny facts that might mitigate that power.

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ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
That the world was flat was fact for 1000's of years and was still accepted fact for 300 more years until as most pre-Socratics beliefs retained the flat Earth model.

A spherical earth wasn't even serious conjecture...until 300 BC, so for about 3 centuries more even the few Greek theories were still conspiracies and not universally accepted scientific truths. The Chinese until the 17th century believed the world was flat.

Fact is, power tells you what they want you to know and is far, far too often accepted as fact. Science today is far too often misused in attempts to obscure or deny facts that might mitigate that power.

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ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh
yer trotting out tha flat earth conspiracy argument again when ya failed ta prove it was any sort of conspiracy. many folks believed tha world was flat. many academics thought different. few folks had access ta a telescope or even tha ability ta write in those days.

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ORIGINAL: GotSteel

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ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh
yer trotting out tha flat earth conspiracy argument again when ya failed ta prove it was any sort of conspiracy. many folks believed tha world was flat. many academics thought different. few folks had access ta a telescope or even tha ability ta write in those days.

One doesn't need a telescope to falsify the flat earth model, you can do it by going anywhere high. A hill, tower, crows nest of a ship etc, once you've noticed that it's possible to see farther by climbing higher the flat earth model doesn't make sense.

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ORIGINAL: fmfclwu
Gold is just a metal. There's nothing inherently "moneyish" about it, and enslaving your currency to it simply means your monetary policy is essentially random instead of intelligently controlled. Now, some countries have made the choice to enslave their currencies to random metal markets or other currency regimes, because they managed to inflict worse damage upon themselves when they controlled it. The United States is not, and should never be, such a country.

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ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh
dunno coz most would experience loss of view inta the distance due to obstruction.

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ORIGINAL: GotSteel

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ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh
dunno coz most would experience loss of view inta the distance due to obstruction.

If someone conducted the experiment in a forest or hilly area, sure. But remember, once humanity gave up the hunter gatherer lifestyle, farming was the thing. People tended to settle in flat areas and cut down all the trees.

The existence of crows nests should be of particular note because unless the waves are higher than eye level of someone standing on the deck of a ship there are no sight obstructions looking out into the ocean. With an unobstructed ocean view using the crows nest makes no sense on a flat earth.

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ORIGINAL: GotSteel

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ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh
dunno coz most would experience loss of view inta the distance due to obstruction.

If someone conducted the experiment in a forest or hilly area, sure. But remember, once humanity gave up the hunter gatherer lifestyle, farming was the thing. People tended to settle in flat areas and cut down all the trees.

The existence of crows nests should be of particular note because unless the waves are higher than eye level of someone standing on the deck of a ship there are no sight obstructions looking out into the ocean. With an unobstructed ocean view using the crows nest makes no sense on a flat earth.

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ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
So my whole point is that to be a conspiracy theory does not mean it is wrong.

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ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
Gentleman you all have missed the whole concept of conspiracy theories I speak to. The theories are a suggestion that what is accepted truth is not in fact true. The accepted truth was flat earth that [it] was at the center of the universe.

China until the 17th century, Islam until about the same time as to the New Testament, (didn't really care and still don't) Christianity, the world was in fact...FACT people according to the church (power) ...flat and at the center of all things cosmos.

So the theory or conspiracy theory if you will allow me, was that...ok here we go, the nut jobs, the crack pots and here we've called idiots, were the ones until and including Galileo and others actually trying to tell power the world was in fact round and not at the center of the universe. So, you all with me still ?

The nuts were the round worlders and the crack pots said earth and the stars rotated around in something else...what was later...the galaxy.

With me still and you to jlf (can't believe you wrote that) so my whole point here and in the other OP was that those were the two greatest conspiracy theories AT THE TIME and there was no debunking necessary. There was jail.

So my whole point is that to be a conspiracy theory does not mean it is wrong. The best way to debunk any, is like this OP's essay pointed out, just ignore the facts or refuse to 'even look down Galileo's' telescope.' He served how much jail time until he recanted ?

quote:

a theory that explains an event or set of circumstances as the result of a secret plot by usually powerful conspirators

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Gentleman you all have missed the whole concept of conspiracy theories I speak to. The theories are a suggestion that what is accepted truth is not in fact true. The accepted truth was flat earth that [it] was at the center of the universe.

China until the 17th century, Islam until about the same time as to the New Testament, (didn't really care and still don't) Christianity, the world was in fact...FACT people according to the church (power) ...flat and at the center of all things cosmos.

So the theory or conspiracy theory if you will allow me, was that...ok here we go, the nut jobs, the crack pots and here we've called idiots, were the ones until and including Galileo and others actually trying to tell power the world was in fact round and not at the center of the universe. So, you all with me still ?

The nuts were the round worlders and the crack pots said earth and the stars rotated around in something else...what was later...the galaxy.

With me still and you to jlf (can't believe you wrote that) so my whole point here and in the other OP was that those were the two greatest conspiracy theories AT THE TIME and there was no debunking necessary. There was jail.

So my whole point is that to be a conspiracy theory does not mean it is wrong. The best way to debunk any, is like this OP's essay pointed out, just ignore the facts or refuse to 'even look down Galileo's' telescope.' He served how much jail time until he recanted ?

So kinkroids you all grasp the concept now ?

Oh and BTW, gold and silver were technically to limit the currency the treasury could print. Without the US exec. and the Treasury having control of the currency the supply of which being in private hands, has worked in the interest of those private hands.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Gentleman you all have missed the whole concept of conspiracy theories I speak to. The theories are a suggestion that what is accepted truth is not in fact true. The accepted truth was flat earth that [it] was at the center of the universe.

China until the 17th century, Islam until about the same time as to the New Testament, (didn't really care and still don't) Christianity, the world was in fact...FACT people according to the church (power) ...flat and at the center of all things cosmos.

So the theory or conspiracy theory if you will allow me, was that...ok here we go, the nut jobs, the crack pots and here we've called idiots, were the ones until and including Galileo and others actually trying to tell power the world was in fact round and not at the center of the universe. So, you all with me still ?

The nuts were the round worlders and the crack pots said earth and the stars rotated around in something else...what was later...the galaxy.

With me still and you to jlf (can't believe you wrote that) so my whole point here and in the other OP was that those were the two greatest conspiracy theories AT THE TIME and there was no debunking necessary. There was jail.

So my whole point is that to be a conspiracy theory does not mean it is wrong. The best way to debunk any, is like this OP's essay pointed out, just ignore the facts or refuse to 'even look down Galileo's' telescope.' He served how much jail time until he recanted ?

So kinkroids you all grasp the concept now ?

Oh and BTW, gold and silver were technically to limit the currency the treasury could print. Without the US exec. and the Treasury having control of the currency the supply of which being in private hands, has worked in the interest of those private hands.

First of all, I am not a gentleman, I am an ex-bush beating airborne grunt, thank you very much.

I have ranted about conspiracy theories on these boards since I joined collarme. There is a psychological basis for the modern conspiracy theorists belief in the conspiracy.

The belief in the flat earth in ancient times was not a true conspiracy, it was a simple fact stemming from observational data for the day, as was the earth centered solar system and universe.

Of course I have been poking fun at the various theories by putting forth my bits about the house cats being aliens and Obama being their controller.

The easiest way to debunk a conspiracy theory is to point out the simple fact that people cant keep their mouths shut. That was how Watergate and Iran Contra came out, someone talked.