RE: Chavez dead... (Full Version)

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Owner59 -> RE: Chavez dead... (3/7/2013 8:39:55 PM)

And the Chinese communists?



They get a pass from the righties?



[8|]




DomKen -> RE: Chavez dead... (3/8/2013 2:40:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

Castro has kept the Cuban people from freedom and liberty for almost fifty-five years. Batista was dictator for seven.

Most of the Cuban people consider themselves better off under Castro. I doubt many think the idea of once again becoming the Mobs playgroud is a desirable goal.




Politesub53 -> RE: Chavez dead... (3/8/2013 3:00:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

Castro has kept the Cuban people from freedom and liberty for almost fifty-five years. Batista was dictator for seven.





Spoken like a true Cuban. [8|]




FatDomDaddy -> RE: Chavez dead... (3/8/2013 6:27:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

Castro has kept the Cuban people from freedom and liberty for almost fifty-five years. Batista was dictator for seven.

Most of the Cuban people consider themselves better off under Castro. I doubt many think the idea of once again becoming the Mobs playgroud is a desirable goal.



Most of the Cubans alive on the Island were not born or children but... in any case, Why is the Cuban defection rate so high? Why are every day Cubans not allowed free travel or free speech? Most Cubans know no other way but the totalitarian government of Castro. The Cuban's who have escaped don't seem to share the same rosy picture you do.




Owner59 -> RE: Chavez dead... (3/8/2013 6:42:11 AM)

It`s poverty......like the "defections" from Haiti....that drives most of it.


Oh right.......poverty is Castros fault......[8|]




Owner59 -> RE: Chavez dead... (3/8/2013 6:50:44 AM)

Funny, in an ugly kinda way....that there`s no narrative of political repression coming out of Cuba but that our cons know the Chinese communists do in fact repress and punish their people......but embrace them anyway with open hearts and open wallets(Mittens)in spite of that.


Why is that?


Why the double standard?




FatDomDaddy -> RE: Chavez dead... (3/8/2013 7:18:33 AM)

Ahhhh.... what are you talking about. Every time a Conservative uses the term ChiComs the left gets itself all in a tizzy. I am sure the whiners will be reporting my use of it here!

And the people defecting from Cuba are the few people who get to travel...the athletes, the professionals, the cultural performers, even in the wake of real and brutal threats against their families.

Oh and this took six seconds.... how many more do you need...Amnesty urges Cuba to end political repression




FatDomDaddy -> RE: Chavez dead... (3/8/2013 7:24:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Funny, in an ugly kinda way....that there`s no narrative of political repression coming out of Cuba



CUBA: Some Acts of Political Repression in June 2012


After the Black Spring, Cuba's new repression

Cuba continues political repression, rights violations under Raul Castro: report

Cuban rights abuses, jailings up in new repressive wave


That last one... "HAVANA — Political arrests in Cuba jumped to more than 6,600 in 2012, the highest in decades as authorities shifted their strategy for dealing with growing civic resistance"




mnottertail -> RE: Chavez dead... (3/8/2013 7:24:31 AM)

Well teabaggers using ChiCom doesn't mean much to me, I have no idea what it is, and I guess if they were going crazy, I'd a seen it on TV or read it in the newspapers.

Is it a new Chicago Football league or what?




Owner59 -> RE: Chavez dead... (3/8/2013 7:27:57 AM)

PALES in compression to your Chinese buddies.....


So again.....con....Why the double standard?

~~~~~~~~~~

Folks....you won`t get a straight answer from these frauds....


This is just an exercise to point out their naked hypocrisy.....




Hillwilliam -> RE: Chavez dead... (3/8/2013 8:08:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

It`s poverty......like the "defections" from Haiti....that drives most of it.




It's not poverty that drives Cuban rafters.
It's certainly not poverty that drives the athlete defectors as they're the elite.
It wasn't poverty that sent the 125,000 Marielitos to miami in 1980.

I lived in miami for 18 years.

Maybe you should post about things you know fuckall about.




Owner59 -> RE: Chavez dead... (3/8/2013 8:51:47 AM)

That was 1980,the cold war.


This is now.


I know Cubans.I know people who have traveled their both legally and folks who have gone their through other countries without getting their passports stamped in Cuba.

I know people who have deads to a farm there,tho they have little hope that it`s still their`s.

I know people from Veniswella.They are no more or less goverened like most south/central American countries with the ecception of Costa Rica.

I never said Cuba was heaven......just that there is a double standard that`s hurting the Cubans as much or more, than their politicos do.




Zonie63 -> RE: Chavez dead... (3/8/2013 8:52:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Funny, in an ugly kinda way....that there`s no narrative of political repression coming out of Cuba but that our cons know the Chinese communists do in fact repress and punish their people......but embrace them anyway with open hearts and open wallets(Mittens)in spite of that.


Why is that?


Why the double standard?


Probably several reasons. One is, the U.S. leadership chose the path of Triangular Diplomacy since the relationship between the Soviet Union and China had deteriorated and there was an opportunity to split the Communist World. The Soviets grew to be more afraid of China than of the U.S., so by developing a friendlier relationship with Communist China, our leadership thought they could effectively counter Soviet expansionism. That may be where the double standard originated, although why it continued even after the fall of the Berlin Wall and the end of the Soviet Union - that seems a bit mystifying.

China is clearly bigger than Cuba, so maybe that has something to do with the double-standard.

I also think that, historically, the U.S. has had a different perception of nations within our own hemisphere versus nations in the other hemisphere. Our hegemony over the Western Hemisphere had been firmly established before we started to make inroads in spreading our hegemony into the Eastern Hemisphere. We had the Monroe Doctrine in our own region, yet we favored the Open China policy over in that country. It was just after the Spanish-American War, in which Cuba figured prominently, as we "liberated" that country from Spanish rule, recognized their independence, while keeping Puerto Rico, Guam, and the Philippines. Why we needed those territories is also a bit mystifying, although considering the annexations we made as a result of that war, it's rather curious that we didn't choose to keep Cuba, too.

Another possible reason for the double-standard is that with Cuba, there seems to be something personal about it. While this is just idle speculation on my part, with heavy Mob influence in Cuba being kicked out so suddenly, it could be that some very highly-placed individuals in the U.S. might have a very strong grudge against Castro. The idea that the Mob never forgets and never forgives might be in play here. The fact that Cuban cigars are still banned - even when we were selling wheat to the Soviets - that sounds like something personal to me, as if the powers that be are really, really pissed off at Cuba for reasons that go beyond geopolitical rivalries.

I don't think we had that kind of relationship with China. When the Chinese Communist Revolution was taking place, we considered both factions to be "allies," as it was just after World War II, when the Chinese Communists and Chinese Nationalists were both fighting the Japanese. I think that General Marshall tried to mediate between the two sides, but ended up disgusted with both. (We had already knocked heads with the Chinese Nationalists previously, so they were not really "puppets" of the US - not like Cuba's pre-revolutionary government was.) Truman was more focused on Europe at the time and didn't seem to be able to formulate much of a coherent policy in East Asia (or in the Middle East for that matter).

In contrast, in our region, our policy had already been (more or less) set in the previous century. While our expansionist foray into Canada fell flat, we saw the collapsing Spanish Empire to our south as an opportunity for expansion. We grabbed Florida, and then a huge chunk of Mexico and firmly established a hegemonic relationship throughout the rest of Latin America after Spain was booted out completely from the Americas. Because of this, countries like Cuba and Venezuela have had more long-term experience in dealing with "Yankee imperialism" than the Chinese ever did.

We may be able to deal with China on a more reasonable level, since there's not as much bad blood as there has been with our neighbors to the south.










Owner59 -> RE: Chavez dead... (3/8/2013 9:07:29 AM)

Great post.






DomKen -> RE: Chavez dead... (3/8/2013 3:25:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

Castro has kept the Cuban people from freedom and liberty for almost fifty-five years. Batista was dictator for seven.

Most of the Cuban people consider themselves better off under Castro. I doubt many think the idea of once again becoming the Mobs playgroud is a desirable goal.



Most of the Cubans alive on the Island were not born or children but... in any case, Why is the Cuban defection rate so high? Why are every day Cubans not allowed free travel or free speech? Most Cubans know no other way but the totalitarian government of Castro. The Cuban's who have escaped don't seem to share the same rosy picture you do.

Most Cubans aren't trying to flee. However it is not hard to compare the situation today and in 1959 and come to believe Castro has improved the lot of the average Cuban, just compare infant mortality rates for one (39 per capita in 59 and 7.1 per capita in 2000).

Castro could not have survived in office this long without popular support.




Politesub53 -> RE: Chavez dead... (3/8/2013 4:39:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

Oh and this took six seconds.... how many more do you need...Amnesty urges Cuba to end political repression



Thats the ticket. Mention Cuban political repression while slagging off those who are not right wing. [8|]




Politesub53 -> RE: Chavez dead... (3/8/2013 4:41:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Great post.






Agreed. Zonie just seems to "get it"




ojodekukulkan -> RE: Chavez dead... (3/8/2013 7:08:46 PM)

i've been to Venezuela many times & it's a society neatly divided along socioeonomical lines: richs hate Cavez, poors adore him &... guess what... there are many more poors! that's why he wins every election by a landslide... it would be so nice if Americans could a little less self-centered &, just for a moment, see the world as others see it... that would help you to respect a little more other peoples' choices




Hillwilliam -> RE: Chavez dead... (3/8/2013 7:17:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


Most Cubans aren't trying to flee. However it is not hard to compare the situation today and in 1959 and come to believe Castro has improved the lot of the average Cuban, just compare infant mortality rates for one (39 per capita in 59 and 7.1 per capita in 2000).

Castro could not have survived in office this long without popular support.

Wouldn't it be reasonable to think that almost every stable country on the planet would show a similar trend from 1959 to 2000 regardless of the political situation?




Owner59 -> RE: Chavez dead... (3/8/2013 7:36:56 PM)

One of their worst dips came when the ruskies pulled out.


IMHO,if we didn`t treat them like lepers,we would be much further along.




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