RE: THe art of submission

RE: THe art of submission (Full Version)

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LadyPact -> RE: THe art of submission (3/7/2013 1:16:00 AM)
Hopefully not off topic but a word to all of you folks who gave the "dress the part" advice......... Absolutely. Clothes can make a person feel more feminine. I'm actually a firm believer in every woman who enjoys them should own sexy lingerie and it doesn't matter if there is a partner there to enjoy it with you or not. Every woman has assets and should have the things that accentuate those assets to give herself a little lift in the "I feel sexy" department. It's a little boost for the ego. Doesn't matter if you are drop dead gorgeous naked. Silk, lace, whatever feels good against your skin, gives you that extra tingle, all the better. Yet, I'm here to tell you, feeling feminine or feeling sexier does not necessarily equate to feeling more submissive. It just brings out the woman. Put Me in the same things that have been suggested on this thread........ The red lipstick, the black lace panties, and the come fuck Me heels, etc and you just handed Me the key to sexually Dominating your ass. For those of us to whom it comes naturally, that little boost just made it easier. Confidence is a damn sexy trait in a Dominant woman, for those who are inclined to be attracted to sexually Dominant women. So, unless you work with the mind frame that you associate certain items with the goal of bringing out submission, the items alone aren't necessarily going to do that.

ChatteParfaitt -> RE: THe art of submission (3/7/2013 6:28:27 AM)
FR: Being submissive is about being obedient. If you have issues with being obedient in the bedroom, they you have one of two problems (or possibly both). One: You are not sexually submissive (There is more than one way to be submissive. Maybe you are a service submissive. Think about what kinds of obedience come naturally to you). Two: He is not sexually dominant. Not all males are. And of course, it could be both. Since the 30 shades nonsense, people seem to think they have to fall into one category or another. From my perspective, most people are not obviously sub or obviously dom, but somewhere in the middle range. If that sounds like you, then you prefer kinky sex on your terms, and there's not a thing wrong with that. Now, as far as submission being an art, I believe that when done right, it so can be. A quick look at the traditions of the Geisha make this clear. There is obedience, and then there is obedience with grace, humility, AND great style. That, too me, embodies the 'art of submission.'

WithBellsOn -> RE: THe art of submission (3/7/2013 6:46:14 AM)
Being submissive may encompass being obedient, just like being dominant encompasses giving orders, but I wouldn't say that's all there is to it. Personally, I'm pretty sure if someone who wasn't naturally dominant tried to play the part for me by ordering me around, it wouldn't work out. That said, 'trying to be more submissive' for someone is kind of submissive itself, so maybe it goes better in that direction...

JeffBC -> RE: THe art of submission (3/7/2013 7:07:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TieMeInKnottss I always feel like an imposter responding to these posts...I have nowhere near the experience of most people here and I am trying to learn (feels like being a Padawan in a room full of Jedi knights...someone walks in & asks how to use a light saber. They don't want to be taught by me...they are seeking the knowledge of the masters ). Two points: A) Ignorant newbie or not I understood and agreed with the rest of your post. B) The part above I STRONGLY disagree with. Everyone here has their own life story and their own viewpoint. What makes you think the viewpoint from a guy married for 20 years is necessarily applicable at all to most of the posts here? Yet I respond to questions. You ought to feel the same way. You are who you are and you bring your own viewpoint to the equation and for some it'll be the right viewpoint.

LillyBoPeep -> RE: THe art of submission (3/7/2013 7:14:45 AM)
I don't think that's offtopic, at all, LP. Dressing a certain way can totally do wonders for confidence, but it's not going to give you qualities that may not be there. And like LP described, wearing an article of clothing can mean something totally different between two people. Anything you do has to be a representation of what's on the inside, otherwise it may not really have the affect you're looking for. I'm a generally submissive person, and I can show that regardless of what I'm wearing. even if i'm wearing gross, muddy gardening clothes, I'm still submissive. =p That said, I won't say you can't aspire to something - sometimes the exterior stuff is how you take your first steps. A lot of people I've met throughout my time in BDSM have started out seeking one thing, and then, after meeting a particular person, they were able to move further along whatever road they ended up choosing. What one person considers to be a great submissive might be a bossy loudmouth to someone else, or a drab blank wall. So it's not really a matter of learning any special "tricks" that would be applicable everywhere, or even a matter of being or not being a "True" submissive. It's about being yourself - whoever that is, with all your aspirations, and finding what fits with that.

ChatteParfaitt -> RE: THe art of submission (3/7/2013 7:15:20 AM)
I didn't say that was all there was to it, but it's certainly a huge part of it. Of course who you are obedient to, and why you are obedient are crucial components of any power exchange type of relationship. You said: I'm pretty sure if someone who wasn't naturally dominant tried to play the part for me by ordering me around, it wouldn't work out. Which is why I (thought I) made it clear in my post that if she's wasn't feeling obedient in bed, that is could very well be b/c her partner had not inspired that obedience through his own dominance. Or that she just wasn't sexually submissive, in other words, not wired to obey sexually. Not every female is. I'd be interested to know what you do think submission is all about if it's not about obedience. To me, it's NOT just about a response to someone more dominant than me (although that factor's in), I've accepted that I have my own deep need to please, to be found pleasing, to facilitate and comply and all kinds of other soft cozy 'sub' things that go beyond obedience. Now, for me I only feel this way with a certain person who makes me feel safe enough to allow that side of me to come out. But in the end, if I didn't obey, the rest wouldn't matter. As a switch, I've had hundreds of male subs tell me how 'sub' they are, who are incapable of following a simple command. Their 'submission' is all about their dick, and if their needs are getting satisfied, they stop being 'submissive' very quickly. So I'm unclear as to exactly what the purpose of your post was, other than to disagree with me.

WithBellsOn -> RE: THe art of submission (3/7/2013 7:53:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt I didn't say that was all there was to it, but it's certainly a huge part of it. Of course who you are obedient to, and why you are obedient are crucial components of any power exchange type of relationship. You said: I'm pretty sure if someone who wasn't naturally dominant tried to play the part for me by ordering me around, it wouldn't work out. Which is why I (thought I) made it clear in my post that if she's wasn't feeling obedient in bed, that is could very well be b/c her partner had not inspired that obedience through his own dominance. Or that she just wasn't sexually submissive, in other words, not wired to obey sexually. Not every female is. Well, I got the impression that the OP was already 'obeying,' but felt that there was something more she was missing. Honestly, it sounds like she knows she isn't all that naturally submissive, and is trying to find ways to be more submissive... above and beyond 'obeying.' My point, which I admit I didn't make particularly well, is that I'm not at all convinced that these subtler aspects of submission are something you can learn to do. As such, the OP may find that she isn't perfectly compatible with this partner who apparently wants her to be 'more submissive.' (Of course, since I think 'submissiveness' is a multidimensional blob instead of a single sliding scale, I'd say 'have more submissive traits than she naturally does.') What are some of these traits, in my experience? Wanting to please, certainly. Subsuming your will in theirs, so that what they want is what you want. Or wanting to do things you don't want, just to please them. A desire to be 'beneath' them -- bowed head, lowered eyes, that comfortable spot at their feet. Craving their possessiveness, wanting to hear 'you're mine.' Relishing their physical expressions of dominance, and yielding instead of resisting. Not a complete list, obviously, just what comes to my mind. Nor are all of these traits even desirable to all dominants -- 'subsuming' has gotten me in trouble, and 'yielding' might not be compatible with a partner who likes having a bit of resistance to overcome. In short... I still think she should talk to her partner about what he wants from her. :P

cordeliasub -> RE: THe art of submission (3/7/2013 8:05:31 AM)
This may seem simplistic, but I know when I "feel" most submissive. It is when He says "Do," and I "do." It has nothing to do with what I am wearing at the time. It happens in a dress, in jeans, naked, with or without makeup. When I know that He owns and desires me and He commands/instructs/directs, then I obey, and he is pleased....I feel that freedom and satisfaction of submission. And it isn't always some flowery touchy feely thing. It's just....right.

ChatteParfaitt -> RE: THe art of submission (3/7/2013 8:15:14 AM)
quote: Well, I got the impression that the OP was already 'obeying,' but felt that there was something more she was missing. Honestly, it sounds like she knows she isn't all that naturally submissive, and is trying to find ways to be more submissive... above and beyond 'obeying.' A very astute observation, and knowing what I know about the OP, my opinion is that it's spot on. I don't think she's very sub either, at least the way I define it, I do think she likes kinky sex, which means playing a submissive role, and to me (and I suspect to you as well), that's not at ALL the same thing. As a switch I learned something about my self a good 20 years ago, and that is, if a dominant does not know how to trigger a submissive response in me when he wants it, we aren't going to do well as a couple. B/c many people would not find me all that submissive, either. I am very sexually submissive, but in the rest of my life, my default in many ways is dominant, which as you can imagine does not always go over very well with Himself. But he learned early on how to trigger a submissive response in me, either by a look, a tone of voice, or a touch. That he knows how to do that contributes to our on-going success as a couple, and keeps both of us happy.

mnottertail -> RE: THe art of submission (3/7/2013 8:19:40 AM)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get all that....my point was if you are inexperienced, or if you are fighting the programming forced on you by others (which appears to be the case here)............ Look (anacolutha follows): If you want to feel more feminine (and she does) dress and act as if you already are more feminine. (she sees this soft and 'passive' for lack of a better word as the yin of female, and submissive) If you are gonna be Sherlock Holmes, then you dress like him, act like him, immerse yourself in him, and you are pretending perhaps, and actors get big money for that, but by god there is only one Spock. If you habituate yourself in it, you are going to pick up some habits. And once the mind can conceive and believe, the mind can achieve. I don't mean any more than that. But I don't mean any less, if you want to be submissive and believe yourself more submissive, go to where your submissive is.

OsideGirl -> RE: THe art of submission (3/7/2013 8:27:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WithBellsOn Well, I got the impression that the OP was already 'obeying,' but felt that there was something more she was missing. Honestly, it sounds like she knows she isn't all that naturally submissive, and is trying to find ways to be more submissive... above and beyond 'obeying.' We have more experience with the OP than you do, so our impressions are a little different. I will agree. She's probably not a submissive personality. But, then again, neither am I. There were no tricks of the trade, no methods for being more submissive. It took knowing that I could trust him with the details which caused me to relax and let go of my urge to control. Obeying is about learning to trust your partner's decisions. The OP is married to someone other than the person she is submitting to (unless something has drastically changed). Which means that she's not going to have the luxury of time to build that kind of trust and that complete submission would be unwise because of her obligations to her husband and children.

chatterbox24 -> RE: THe art of submission (3/7/2013 8:45:13 AM)
Thanks for all the info again. Good posts. A comment was made to me " I want you more submissive then you have ever been" Well I really dont know how much submissive one can be with they are doing exactly as told, not arguing, doing it in good spirits without an agenda, pleasing and giving all. IT could have been a very benign comment but I took it as " you are not submissive enough" I also asked "what is missing" and without a response. So I was tryig to figure it out. As Lady pact said, the dress is just going to make me feel more feminine, it cant make me submissive, it could make me feel a bit softer though. Bringing out the woman , but it definitely is not going to change everything. I just have liked this side of me being a giver instead of a "taker". I have generally been on the recieving end, so the will to give willingly and not begrudgingly has been nice. As far as submissive, I really can't figure out how much more I could be, maybe cause I cant be. A person can only give so much and still remain healthy or aware of self. I like playing the role, and yes it does seem like a role to me cause its normally not me. It simply might be a compatiblity issue, a communication issue, a I am trying to be something I am not issue, even if I have the desire. I like questions answered, and it is very frustrating when the source wont answer them. SO I think dont ask again, thats dom trying to get answers he wants to figure out for myself. But still the guessing game is a bit frustrating. I also wanted to add, it might be such a thing as you just cant please some people and it isnt my actions. Cause I really have analyzed it and took responsiblity, and made it what can I do more? Not sure I can do more.

WithBellsOn -> RE: THe art of submission (3/7/2013 8:46:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt A very astute observation, and knowing what I know about the OP, my opinion is that it's spot on. I don't think she's very sub either, at least the way I define it, I do think she likes kinky sex, which means playing a submissive role, and to me (and I suspect to you as well), that's not at ALL the same thing. Nope. Nothing wrong with liking kinky sex, though! In fact -- and this may be relevant to the issues of the not-very-submissive men you've encountered, too -- I feel that my 'submissiveness' toward men is actually more wanting-to-be-dominated. I don't especially want to please, I don't want to bring them drinks made just the way they like, and my response to any given order is more likely to be 'why should I?' than 'of course, Master.' No... I want them to grab me and force me to my knees. I want to be defiant and get them to make me regret it. Et cetera. I'm still compatible with a certain breed of dominant... but submissive? I don't think so. Which makes me wonder how many of the men seeking dominant women want to be dominated, rather than wanting to submit. quote: B/c many people would not find me all that submissive, either. I am very sexually submissive, but in the rest of my life, my default in many ways is dominant, which as you can imagine does not always go over very well with Himself. But he learned early on how to trigger a submissive response in me, either by a look, a tone of voice, or a touch. That he knows how to do that contributes to our on-going success as a couple, and keeps both of us happy. That sounds lovely... thank you for sharing. I'm endlessly fascinated by how many delightful variants there are on WIITWD. :)

LillyBoPeep -> RE: THe art of submission (3/7/2013 8:48:54 AM)
It's totally cool to try to express greater femininity, but you have to be realistic about it. If she's hoping that becoming this icon of femininity will add character traits that aren't there, then she's going to be disappointed. Yes, dressing a certain way can affect how you feel about yourself. Aspiring for something is great, and people can certainly learn new ways of being and they can change. But it takes a lot more than dressing up to do that. Like what "habits" is someone going to pick up that make them more feminine? What behaviors and habits do you think of as being feminine? Being a bimbo? Being maternal? Being prim and proper, serious and modest, or girly and flippant? There are so many caricatures of what women should be like, but what do any of them even mean or represent? =p Is being "feminine" being polite? Because politeness and modesty are good for anyone, male or female. There is nothing inherently submissive about femininity, so going for one isn't necessarily going to inform and create the other.

mnottertail -> RE: THe art of submission (3/7/2013 8:49:50 AM)
quote: A comment was made to me " I want you more submissive then you have ever been" You know how women say things in velleity just to express some emotion? And then they get mad when men try to 'fix' the motherfucker? Are you being emotionally overzealous here and figure you have to 'fix' something, that really doesn't need fixing, kiddo? Man in the Gorilla Suit. (ps. he prolly said 'THAN', fyi)

LillyBoPeep -> RE: THe art of submission (3/7/2013 8:52:13 AM)
WithBellsOn - quote: In fact -- and this may be relevant to the issues of the not-very-submissive men you've encountered, too -- I feel that my 'submissiveness' toward men is actually more wanting-to-be-dominated. I don't especially want to please, I don't want to bring them drinks made just the way they like, and my response to any given order is more likely to be 'why should I?' than 'of course, Master.' No... I want them to grab me and force me to my knees. I want to be defiant and get them to make me regret it. Et cetera. I'm still compatible with a certain breed of dominant... but submissive? I don't think so. Which makes me wonder how many of the men seeking dominant women want to be dominated, rather than wanting to submit. That is a really great descriptor. :) Thanks for sharing. ^_^

WithBellsOn -> RE: THe art of submission (3/7/2013 8:54:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chatterbox24 I like questions answered, and it is very frustrating when the source wont answer them. SO I think dont ask again, thats dom trying to get answers he wants to figure out for myself. But still the guessing game is a bit frustrating. I also wanted to add, it might be such a thing as you just cant please some people and it isnt my actions. Cause I really have analyzed it and took responsiblity, and made it what can I do more? Not sure I can do more. I think these two things together might be the take-home message here. Seriously, he says he wants you to be more submissive and then won't explain what that means to him? Bad form, IMO.

chatterbox24 -> RE: THe art of submission (3/7/2013 8:55:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail quote: A comment was made to me " I want you more submissive then you have ever been" You know how women say things in velleity just to express some emotion? And then they get mad when men try to 'fix' the motherfucker? Are you being emotionally overzealous here and figure you have to 'fix' something, that really doesn't need fixing, kiddo? Man in the Gorilla Suit. (ps. he prolly said 'THAN', fyi) Dear Man in a gorilla suit, This very well might be the case. Reading something into nothing. I do that. I will read more into something then there is, and IM a ware of it. So maybe thats why I didnt get an answer. See you are no chimpanzee and baboon like every one says [:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

RedMagic1 -> RE: THe art of submission (3/7/2013 9:54:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chatterbox24 A comment was made to me " I want you more submissive then you have ever been" Well I really dont know how much submissive one can be with they are doing exactly as told, not arguing, doing it in good spirits without an agenda, pleasing and giving all. My experience has been that people who think they are doing everything and being perfect, are in fact making major mistakes they are blind to; while the people who are the best friends, spouses, etc., are the ones who see all the mistakes they are making, and all the ways in which they don't measure up. I would be more confident that you were accurately describing the situation if you were more aware of your imperfections.

kiwisub12 -> RE: THe art of submission (3/7/2013 1:30:14 PM)
I've been in two long term D/s relationships, and both men when wanting me to be submissive just told me what they wanted/want. Easy-peasey! and if i was going to act the role of submissive, i would go for pretty petticoats and garter belts and soulfully gaze at the object of my "submission".The problem for me with that is that isn't submission - its acting. And since i'm real, it won't work. And it probably won't/wouldn't have worked with my fellas - because it would become obvious after a while (if not sooner) that i was acting. Most people i know want someone who is real and living their life as realistically as possible. Nothing wrong with a bit of role playing or acting - but don't confuse it with reality.

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