The Paul Filibuster (Full Version)

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TheHeretic -> The Paul Filibuster (3/6/2013 6:30:42 PM)

Senator Rand Paul has a question.

Will the President say that he won't use drones to kill American Citizens, on American soil?

And he's trying not to sit down, until he gets an answer.

The White House isn't returning the calls from his office.

Live coverage from C-Span 2

The clock started at 11:47 a.m. Eastern




Baroana -> RE: The Paul Filibuster (3/6/2013 6:35:24 PM)

Sounds about right. Stand there and do nothing is what many members of Congress do best.

How silly to think he would have anything better to do than be the second coming of the birthers.

Edited to add:

I can't imagine that there are any more pressing issues this stunt is designed to distract us from.




FirmhandKY -> RE: The Paul Filibuster (3/6/2013 6:40:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Senator Rand Paul has a question.

Will the President say that he won't use drones to kill American Citizens, on American soil?

And he's trying not to sit down, until he gets an answer.

The White House isn't returning the calls from his office.

Live coverage from C-Span 2

The clock started at 11:47 a.m. Eastern

I'm proud of the man.

I suspect, however, that most of the posters here, who consider themselves "enlightened", "intelligent", and just "morally better" than all of us troglodyte wingnuts will poo-poo and make fun.

If so, then they will just be confirming what they care about the Constitution: not one bit.

I've posted several times about the extra-judical assassination of American citizens. Our loyal left of center statists seem to think it all ok.

I weep for the nation that use to exist, and for the future gulags.

Firm




TheHeretic -> RE: The Paul Filibuster (3/6/2013 6:42:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Baroana

Sounds about right. Stand there and do nothing is what many members of Congress do best.

How silly to think he would have anything better to do than be the second coming of the birthers.



So, are you then perfectly ok with the President of these United States having such authority?

Any chance you could wrap your opinion around the hypothetical of the Senator being Barack Obama, and the President being George W. Bush?

Would you offer the same response?





servantforuse -> RE: The Paul Filibuster (3/6/2013 6:45:19 PM)

You have to wonder what the reaction from the left would be it the same question would be asked of President Bush ? He was raked over the coals for waterboarding 3 guys.




Baroana -> RE: The Paul Filibuster (3/6/2013 6:45:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Baroana

Sounds about right. Stand there and do nothing is what many members of Congress do best.

How silly to think he would have anything better to do than be the second coming of the birthers.



So, are you then perfectly ok with the President of these United States having such authority?

Any chance you could wrap your opinion around the hypothetical of the Senator being Barack Obama, and the President being George W. Bush?

Would you offer the same response?





I was concerned about the shit that Bush actually did. I was not concerned with paranoid fantasies of what might happen after Judgment Day.




TheHeretic -> RE: The Paul Filibuster (3/6/2013 6:50:03 PM)

I hear you, Firm. Without a course correction, we are heading for ugly places.

Pity them a little bit too, because they shall be among the recipients of what they happily blind themselves about today.

We do have pictures and records of all those who thought Occupy was a brilliant plan to bring down the man, after all.




Marini -> RE: The Paul Filibuster (3/6/2013 7:10:58 PM)

quote:

We do have pictures and records of all those who thought Occupy was a brilliant plan to bring down the man, after all.


Rich, we really don't need "Occupy" to bring down the man.
I appreciate their efforts though.
I am glad we live in a country in which Paul has the RIGHT to promote his cause by being able to filibuster, and those behind the Occupy movement have the RIGHT to protest.

The man is doing a GREAT job of bringing down himself, these days.
The man does not need any help at all.




tazzygirl -> RE: The Paul Filibuster (3/6/2013 7:13:28 PM)

Good for him, and I mean that.

He wants answers.

His constituents want answers.

And I find it hard to believe its only conservatives who want these answers.





FirmhandKY -> RE: The Paul Filibuster (3/6/2013 7:17:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Good for him, and I mean that.

He wants answers.

His constituents want answers.

And I find it hard to believe its only conservatives who want these answers.



I've mentioned this issue at least twice over the last year.

Every single left of center poster has told me that I'm full of shit, or "Bush did it first!" (untrue).

I hear you here ... but it sounds kinda weak, at this late date, sorry.

Firm




muhly22222 -> RE: The Paul Filibuster (3/6/2013 7:20:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Baroana

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Baroana

Sounds about right. Stand there and do nothing is what many members of Congress do best.

How silly to think he would have anything better to do than be the second coming of the birthers.



So, are you then perfectly ok with the President of these United States having such authority?

Any chance you could wrap your opinion around the hypothetical of the Senator being Barack Obama, and the President being George W. Bush?

Would you offer the same response?





I was concerned about the shit that Bush actually did. I was not concerned with paranoid fantasies of what might happen after Judgment Day.


It certainly seems paranoid, but break it down. The elements of the question that Paul wants answered are whether the President believes he has the authority to kill:
1. an American citizen
2. on American soil
3. without a trial
4. when that person does not pose an imminent danger.

President Obama has already ordered an attack that met 3 of the 4 elements (it wasn't on American soil).

Really, this is a legitimate question to ask. I can't fathom a reason, besides purely being stubborn, that the Obama administration wouldn't simply say that the President doesn't have that power (I'm not saying there aren't reasons, just that I can't think of them...feel free to enlighten me, please).




tazzygirl -> RE: The Paul Filibuster (3/6/2013 7:21:51 PM)

I have, more than once, stated I am not happy with all of Obama's decisions. This is one he needs to address.




Baroana -> RE: The Paul Filibuster (3/6/2013 7:23:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: muhly22222


quote:

ORIGINAL: Baroana

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Baroana

Sounds about right. Stand there and do nothing is what many members of Congress do best.

How silly to think he would have anything better to do than be the second coming of the birthers.



So, are you then perfectly ok with the President of these United States having such authority?

Any chance you could wrap your opinion around the hypothetical of the Senator being Barack Obama, and the President being George W. Bush?

Would you offer the same response?





I was concerned about the shit that Bush actually did. I was not concerned with paranoid fantasies of what might happen after Judgment Day.


It certainly seems paranoid, but break it down. The elements of the question that Paul wants answered are whether the President believes he has the authority to kill:
1. an American citizen
2. on American soil
3. without a trial
4. when that person does not pose an imminent danger.

President Obama has already ordered an attack that met 3 of the 4 elements (it wasn't on American soil).

Really, this is a legitimate question to ask. I can't fathom a reason, besides purely being stubborn, that the Obama administration wouldn't simply say that the President doesn't have that power (I'm not saying there aren't reasons, just that I can't think of them...feel free to enlighten me, please).



According to the OP, that wasn't the question. The question was will President Obama (promise not to) use DRONES to carry out those acts. I have no doubt that asking the President to rule out the use of any other weapon would enrage the NRA.




TheHeretic -> RE: The Paul Filibuster (3/6/2013 7:26:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

I've mentioned this issue at least twice over the last year.

Every single left of center poster has told me that I'm full of shit, or "Bush did it first!" (untrue).

I hear you here ... but it sounds kinda weak, at this late date, sorry.

Firm



I'm sure you mean all those who actually showed up on the discussion, Firm. Most just listen to the whisper in their ear that it's all Fox nonsense, and go happily about the march to the slaughter.

Plus, they can come back later, and deny the words spoken with their silent assent.




tazzygirl -> RE: The Paul Filibuster (3/6/2013 7:29:19 PM)

This seems to be the crux of Paul's issue....

“When I asked the president, ‘Can you kill an American on American soil?’ it should have been an easy answer. It’s an easy question. It should have been a resounding, an unequivocal, ‘No,’ ” Paul said. “The president’s response? He hasn’t killed anyone yet. We’re supposed to be comforted by that.”




TheHeretic -> RE: The Paul Filibuster (3/6/2013 7:32:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Baroana
According to the OP, that wasn't the question. The question was will President Obama (promise not to) use DRONES to carry out those acts. I have no doubt that asking the President to rule out the use of any other weapon would enrage the NRA.



As the guy who wrote the OP, no. Your restatement is lame and ignorant. That's Rand Paul's question. The question of the OP is an invitation to discuss the subject.

Why are you unwilling to answer the question I posed to you? Does cognitive dissonance give you a headache?






Marini -> RE: The Paul Filibuster (3/6/2013 7:34:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

This seems to be the crux of Paul's issue....

“When I asked the president, ‘Can you kill an American on American soil?’ it should have been an easy answer. It’s an easy question. It should have been a resounding, an unequivocal, ‘No,’ ” Paul said. “The president’s response? He hasn’t killed anyone yet. We’re supposed to be comforted by that.”


I am right with tazzy on this.
I voted for President Obama TWICE, because I preferred him head and shoulders over his opponents.

I am a Middle aged Black hippy, and I have never, ever trusted "the man", and I will die not totally trusting "the man".

I stated prior to President Obama being elected the first time, I fully expected to disagree with his decisions A LOT.
{Being a never fully trust the man type of thinker that I am, I will always question ANY leader that we have.}

I have issues with all this partisian bullshit, and people that vote for candidates and than are too spineless to question them on their proverbial shit, now and than.

No elected official is above reproach, and that includes President Obama.

Peace




Level -> RE: The Paul Filibuster (3/6/2013 7:35:42 PM)

1- would the use of drones against non-Americans on our soil be as problematic?

2- what if they were used against Americans initiating a terror attack of some sort? Should law enforcement be used instead?




Level -> RE: The Paul Filibuster (3/6/2013 7:47:47 PM)

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/03/06/rand-paul-does-not-go-quietly-into-the-night/

Some highlights thus far. Good to see democrat Wyden speaking up.




tazzygirl -> RE: The Paul Filibuster (3/6/2013 7:55:24 PM)

Much of what happens in war (or terroristic issues) is problematic for me... but I recognize what its a personal issue. I also have stated that if a drone can save a military life, then I am all for it, in regards to actions outside of this country. I dont think I could stomach it then either. As US citizens, we have certain rights, including the right a trial. This would basically be a lynching... at the whim of .. who?

Part of the issue is this....

He began to winnow the list of those possible extraordinary circumstances Wednesday. In testimony Wednesday before the Senate Judiciary Committee, Sen. Ted Cruz, R-Texas, pressed Holder whether he believed it would be constitutional to target an American terror suspect "sitting at a cafe" if the suspect didn't pose an imminent threat.

"No," Holder replied.

But he also said the government has no intention of carrying out drone strikes inside the United States. Echoing what he said in a letter to U.S. Sen. Rand Paul, R-Kentucky, he called the possibility of domestic drone strikes "entirely hypothetical."

That letter, released Tuesday, was prompted by questions raised over the nomination of John Brennan to head the CIA. Specifically, members of the Senate Intelligence Committee sought the Obama administration's legal rationale for its use of drones to kill terror suspects overseas.

But Sen. Rand Paul, a Kentucky Republican who has said he would do what he could to hold up Brennan's nomination until he got a full answer to his query, wanted to know whether the administration considered that policy applicable domestically.

The United States, he said, has not carried out such action domestically and had no plans to do so.

Holder said a potential scenario might involve a president ordering such action "to protect the homeland" in a case like the 2001 al Qaeda attacks on New York and Washington or the Japanese bombing of Pearl Harbor in 1941.

But he said the administration rejects the use of military force where law enforcement authorities provide the best means for incapacitating a terrorist threat.

Paul, who released the letter from Holder along with his statement, was not satisfied with the response.

"The U.S. attorney general's refusal to rule out the possibility of drone strikes on American citizens and on American soil is more than frightening. It is an affront to the constitutional due process rights of all Americans," Paul said.

Jeffrey Toobin, CNN senior legal analyst, said on CNN's "The Situation Room" that Holder made it clear in his letter that he would have to examine the facts of each situation separately and advise the president on his legal authority.

"Again, he made a point of saying Sen. Rand Paul's question is hypothetical at this time. But at some point down the road, this may not be hypothetical," Toobin said.

Brennan defended the use of drones overseas at his confirmation hearing weeks ago, but acknowledged there should be more public discussion.


http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/05/politics/obama-drones-cia/index.html

Paul didnt like the answers he got. Many citizens didnt like those answers either. Frankly, I cannot blame them.

This, to me, used against a US citizen, isnt legal, isnt constitutional, and smacks of domestic terrorism perpetuated by the government. I agree with Toobin in this case.

One of the things I love best about the US (and only one of those many things) is our "seeming" appearance of checks and balances. I have to say seeming because, as we all know, that system doesnt always work, but its there for a reason. Allowing these types of strikes within the US, or against US citizens, takes away those "checks and balances".. and I am not one to forgive an "oops, I was wrong" in this situation.








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