RE: The Paul Filibuster (Full Version)

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vincentML -> RE: The Paul Filibuster (3/8/2013 8:27:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

I wonder if you could get away with shooting one down for trespassing.

Maybe. If you can show you own the air rights above your property.[:D]

I was waiting for that.

http://www.land-professor.com/property-rights.html

"1. Air Rights


Air Rights include from the surface of the land into space. It is possible to purchase land that has limited air rights. An example would be not owning the rights above 50 feet. This would stop you from building anything higher than 50 feet. A previous owner may have retained the air rights higher than 50 feet to keep the view from being blocked."

This, of course doesn't apply to any ROW granted to the FAA or law enforcement by the government.

An advertiser would have to comply with any FAA regulations (and therefore be granted right of passage). If they didn't do that, they'd indeed be trespassing.

It is not so simple. In Florida's 1995 Property Rights Law the land owner has a right to compensation if his property value is effected because the owner was "inordinantly burdened" by acts of a government agency. Any police helocopters fly over your house recently? Drones at say 5000 feet passing over a neighborhood . . . are all the landowners inordinantly burdened? Good luck with that. [:D]




Owner59 -> RE: The Paul Filibuster (3/8/2013 8:28:21 AM)


General reply to the (non-kook) discussion:


The notion that the drone program has no oversight/accountability is....... a kook-narrative......


And until such time as the nation passes a Constitutional amendment that makes someone other than the President,the Commander AND Chief of our armed forces.......we`ll just stick with the present system, TYVM.[8|]






Hillwilliam -> RE: The Paul Filibuster (3/8/2013 1:15:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

I wonder if you could get away with shooting one down for trespassing.

Maybe. If you can show you own the air rights above your property.[:D]

I was waiting for that.

http://www.land-professor.com/property-rights.html

"1. Air Rights


Air Rights include from the surface of the land into space. It is possible to purchase land that has limited air rights. An example would be not owning the rights above 50 feet. This would stop you from building anything higher than 50 feet. A previous owner may have retained the air rights higher than 50 feet to keep the view from being blocked."

This, of course doesn't apply to any ROW granted to the FAA or law enforcement by the government.

An advertiser would have to comply with any FAA regulations (and therefore be granted right of passage). If they didn't do that, they'd indeed be trespassing.

It is not so simple. In Florida's 1995 Property Rights Law the land owner has a right to compensation if his property value is effected because the owner was "inordinantly burdened" by acts of a government agency. Any police helocopters fly over your house recently? Drones at say 5000 feet passing over a neighborhood . . . are all the landowners inordinantly burdened? Good luck with that. [:D]

You forgot about FAA granted passage.
This applies to commercial carriers and government as I said.
Non FAA/govt sanctioned flights are what I was talking about. Please read the WHOLE post.




DomKen -> RE: The Paul Filibuster (3/8/2013 3:45:15 PM)

Has anyone thought about how easy it is to build a drone?

A decent RC plane with a camera and transmitter added would fill the bill. There are already very small cameras meant for mounting in RC planes so you'd just need to hack a VHF/UHF transmitter which any experienced HAM operator can do.

The genie is way way out of the box.




TheHeretic -> RE: The Paul Filibuster (3/8/2013 6:23:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

I think he should be committed as a danger to others and himself.....



Locking up people you disagree with, huh?

Sadly, DYB, that you take such a position comes as no surprise at all.




Owner59 -> RE: The Paul Filibuster (3/8/2013 7:07:51 PM)

Whooppps....[:D]

"Senior GOP Comes Out Swinging In Defense Of…President Obama?"

“I don’t think what happened yesterday is helpful to the American people,” said Senator John McCain (R-AZ) referring to the filibuster and the now-exposed theatrical photo-op staged by Senator Rand Paul (R-KY) for his political gain. Is this a precursor to his future shenanigans, designed to misdirect and misinform the American people — and particularly some young libertarians who have yet to overcome their political teething problems?

McCain was on the floor rebuffing Paul’s outlandish claims about President Barack Obama’s drone policy:


“But somehow to allege that the United States of America, our government, will drop a drone hell-fire missile on Jane Fonda [in said cafe]…that brings the conversation from a serious discussion about US policy, to the realm of the ridiculous”



http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/03/08/senior-gop-comes-out-swinging-in-defense-of-president-obama/




Lucylastic -> RE: The Paul Filibuster (3/8/2013 9:08:23 PM)

wrong thread,




vincentML -> RE: The Paul Filibuster (3/9/2013 9:56:34 AM)

quote:

You forgot about FAA granted passage.
This applies to commercial carriers and government as I said.
Non FAA/govt sanctioned flights are what I was talking about. Please read the WHOLE post.

I gather this is what you mean:

But smaller, commercial drones are already being used for various purposes. A recent story from NBC News outlined how operators are widely using drones to capture video and images, by literally flying under the FAA’s radar.
[SNIP]
The legal matters could take much longer to resolve when it comes to privacy and other Constitutional issues. So you may need to encounter a drone flying over your backyard to claim damages and prove a legal point. SOURCE

Again, you will have to claim damages. I think that will be difficult. Can you imagine a narrative that would compel you to go to Court because of a drone overflight of your airspace?




JeffBC -> RE: The Paul Filibuster (3/9/2013 10:04:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
You'll want to be very careful about that, Jeff. They'll take away your liberal card. [;)]

Yeah... it'll go the way of my true dom card I'm sure.

More seriously I don't WANT a liberal card anymore and I don't want to be associated with liberals... or conservatives. I gave up on drinking the red/blue koolaid a few years back and I don't want to start up again. I prefer to think of myself as "someone living in the actual real world rather than an ideology" Accordingly, I piss off the liberals when I point out that Obama isn't exactly liberal and I piss off the conservatives when I point out that shit like trickle down economics is myth and lassaiz-faire capitalism is more like a nightmare.




JeffBC -> RE: The Paul Filibuster (3/9/2013 10:06:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro
I never said I was pissed...

Uh... granted, I don't know who you are in real life but unless you qualify as a "part of the party power structure" (read that as you attend $20,000 a plate fundraisers) then I wasn't referring to you.




DesideriScuri -> RE: The Paul Filibuster (3/9/2013 10:44:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Again, you will have to claim damages. I think that will be difficult. Can you imagine a narrative that would compel you to go to Court because of a drone overflight of your airspace?


Doesn't there have to be actual damages, too? Just having your privacy rights crossed doesn't mean anything, when it actually doesn't hurt you.

That was one of the problems with Obamacare legal challenges. Since the mandate isn't going into effect until 2014, no one could claim standing to challenge it. That may well have been by design, too.




tazzygirl -> RE: The Paul Filibuster (3/9/2013 11:25:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
You'll want to be very careful about that, Jeff. They'll take away your liberal card. [;)]

Yeah... it'll go the way of my true dom card I'm sure.

More seriously I don't WANT a liberal card anymore and I don't want to be associated with liberals... or conservatives. I gave up on drinking the red/blue koolaid a few years back and I don't want to start up again. I prefer to think of myself as "someone living in the actual real world rather than an ideology" Accordingly, I piss off the liberals when I point out that Obama isn't exactly liberal and I piss off the conservatives when I point out that shit like trickle down economics is myth and lassaiz-faire capitalism is more like a nightmare.



Welcome to the real world, Jeff. We dont have cards, just common sense, a refusal to be forced by others to see things the way the talking heads demand us too, and a lack of desire to goose step to any party.




vincentML -> RE: The Paul Filibuster (3/9/2013 12:42:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Again, you will have to claim damages. I think that will be difficult. Can you imagine a narrative that would compel you to go to Court because of a drone overflight of your airspace?


Doesn't there have to be actual damages, too? Just having your privacy rights crossed doesn't mean anything, when it actually doesn't hurt you.

That was one of the problems with Obamacare legal challenges. Since the mandate isn't going into effect until 2014, no one could claim standing to challenge it. That may well have been by design, too.


Agreed. Not only would he have to show damages, he would have to know who was at the controls. Good luck with that.




TheHeretic -> RE: The Paul Filibuster (3/9/2013 1:18:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

I gave up on drinking the red/blue koolaid a few years back



That's not an uncommon claim, Jeff, but it mostly comes with a big whiff of bullshit. Koolaid's best selling flavor is, "when in doubt, demonize," and I seem to recall that getting regurgitated on cue, when we were taking healthcare.

Principled liberals seem like an endangered species, here in the era of the Obamabots. I appreciate you not simply floating with the tide on the question. But let's not get silly about it.




Yachtie -> RE: The Paul Filibuster (3/10/2013 11:42:05 AM)

~FR~

Copyright © 2013 by LewRockwell.com. Permission to reprint in whole or in part is gladly granted, provided full credit is given.


An Open Letter to Senator Lindsey Graham

by Glenn Jacobs


Dear Senator Graham:

In response to Senator Rand Paul’s filibuster protesting John Brennan’s nomination as head of the CIA, you commented that "this idea that we’re going to use a drone to attack a citizen in a cafe in America is ridiculous."

Although I don’t speak for Senator Paul, I do not think that he actually believes that there will be drone attacks on US citizens tomorrow, next week, next month, and so forth. What he was protesting is Attorney General Eric Holder’s position that the federal government does indeed claim the authority to carry out such attacks, albeit, in "extraordinary circumstances" or "emergencies." In other words, Senator Paul was protesting the idea that drone attacks can be utilized against citizens in America.

Unfortunately, history shows that government programs almost never remain within the constraints under which they are first proposed. For instance, the Patriot Act was written ostensibly to give the federal government more tools to fight terrorism. Within a few years of its implementation,however, surveillance powers which the Patriot Act granted the FBI were used to obtain evidence in a cockfighting case in Tennessee. While animal cruelty is abhorrent, I think we can all agree that it is not a threat to national security. Likewise, RICO laws, originally aimed at organized crime, have been used to prosecute everyone from pro-life activists to junk bond dealers. Or look at federal income tax rates which, in 1913, were 1% on incomes up to $20,000 (a sizable income back then) all the way up to 7% on incomes over $500,000. Of course, today these rates are multiples higher.

The fact is that government programs always expand. Giving the government the authority to do something nearly always results in politicians and bureaucrats looking for more ways and more circumstances in which that power can be used. So we should take very little comfort in AG Holder’s postulate that drone attacks would only be used in "extraordinary circumstances." We may quickly find that these extraordinary circumstances become much less extraordinary than we previously imagined.

I would also remind you, sir, that the United States Constitution is not a set of guidelines or suggestions. It is the supreme law of the land, a document that both you and AG Holder swore to uphold. It is clear that AG Holder’s position concerning the use of drones to assassinate a US citizen in America is unconstitutional and illegal. The Fifth Amendment of the Constitution reads:

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury...nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law...

You will notice that the Fifth Amendment does not contain the caveat: "except in extraordinary circumstances or emergencies."

While some have framed the argument to be between one of liberty and security, that fact is that without liberty there is no security because we are all at the mercy of an authoritarian state. In other words, when it comes to our liberties, when we begin to make exceptions to the rule, these exceptions become the rule.

In response to Senator Paul’s efforts, AG Holder and the White House now claim that the President does not have the authority to “use a weaponized drone to kill an American not engaged in combat on an American soil.” Unfortunately, in the words of Senator Paul, it took “a month and a half and a root canal” to get this answer. Of course, it appears that the question of whether weaponized drones could be deployed in America at all is still at the President’s discretion, so the slippery slope remains. As we have seen with the evolution of the federal government’s definition of “terrorism,” it is not hard to envision a scenario in which the government claims that certain acts, cyberwarfare for instance, are forms of “passive combat.”

In any case, Senator Paul’s filibuster was anything but ridiculous. The only thing ridiculous about this situation is that such an act of outright tyranny, assassinating an American on American soil, would even be the subject of a political debate.

March 9, 2013



Excellent letter. [:D]




TheHeretic -> RE: The Paul Filibuster (3/10/2013 2:54:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

Excellent letter. [:D]



Agreed




Moonhead -> RE: The Paul Filibuster (3/11/2013 7:48:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I hear you, Firm. Without a course correction, we are heading for ugly places.

Pity them a little bit too, because they shall be among the recipients of what they happily blind themselves about today.

We do have pictures and records of all those who thought Occupy was a brilliant plan to bring down the man, after all.

Well, maybe if the GOP had been focussing on real issues rather than paranoid crap with their lengthy campaign of fillibustering and nonsense since the Kenyan was elected, people might possibly think that this was an attempt to correct the country's course, rather than attention seeking obstructionism.




Moonhead -> RE: The Paul Filibuster (3/11/2013 7:57:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

I'm thinking along the same lines.

One last hypothetical: if we could have scrambled fighters to shoot down the planes that hit the Twin Towers, would that be acceptable?

That isn't a hypothetical, in fact.
Powell suggested doing so, and was told that doing so was out of the question by Cheney, according to a couple of accounts.
So no: apparently not acceptable in 2001. Of course, a similar action might be considered a lot more acceptable now...




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