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Control. - 3/9/2013 5:39:13 PM   
ARIES83


Posts: 3648
Status: offline 		The last discussion I could find on this topic was
from 2006, I find that hard to believe, surely the
search isn't working...

I would be interested in hearing peoples opinions
about what exactly control entails in a D/s
relationship, and in general.

What do people think are the key aspects of
control or self-control? How important is control to
you? what does control mean to you? ect...

Whats healthy/ unhealthy control to you?

Can you give any examples of types of control you
like/ dislike?

_____________________________

530 DAYS
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Control. - 3/9/2013 6:48:38 PM   
RemoteUser


Posts: 2854
Joined: 5/10/2011
Status: offline 		From my (male Dom) perspective, control is about creating an outcome. I don't say a desirable outcome, because sometimes people make what they think they want, only to discover they didn't want it at all. The creation of that outcome can occur in a variety of ways: physical force and restraint, subliminal suggestion, appealing to reason/logic or sparking an emotional reaction, etcetera.

If you want control, you have to know what you want, and how to get it; if you don't know, you learn (desire is a wonderful motivator).

Self-control is a whole other matter, as it requires a more visceral approach. It's not about someone else influencing you, it's about making a decision and holding yourself to it. An outcome is still created, but the process is primarily internal, although it may become external (seeking support through counselling or family, for example).

Control is tangential to me. I don't need to control my girl. Certain outcomes might require influence, but if that is to happen it's going to be something I want, and something she can handle. It also has to be situationally appropriate. She doesn't need me to tell her how to drive, but she does want to be directed when we play.

Unhealthy control is creating an unhealthy outcome; making a sub perform unsafe acts that may endanger them or cause emotional damage would be good examples.

_____________________________

There is nothing worse than being right. Instead of being right, then, try to be open. It is more difficult, and more rewarding.


(in reply to ARIES83)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Control. - 3/9/2013 7:55:52 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		Control: having authority over your own life or that of another. Pure and simple.

What do I like and dislike? can't really think of anything. I like him having control over everything. I like that he controls his own life as well. If he couldn't do that I would have no interest in him. I am also good at most self control as well which is one reason he is attracted to me I think. And when I can't or he doesn't approve of the way I went about it, that's what he's there for.

I'm not really sure how else to answer.


_____________________________

Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

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RE: Control. - 3/9/2013 8:35:03 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		Self-control, because I expect certain things from myself, not all of which come easy.

Control of her, because it's fulfilling. I like to teach, and lead, and even mold (not to be confused with molting). I like to control.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Control. - 3/9/2013 9:46:13 PM   
LillyBoPeep


Posts: 6873
Joined: 12/29/2010
Status: offline 		Interesting way to explain that, RemoteUser ^_^ "Creating outcomes"

I usually think of it as someone exercising an influence of some kind over someone else. An influence that can come across in a lot of different ways. People can be controlling passive-aggressively, or they can be outright domineering.
But all in all, yeah - with the intention to create a particular outcome, whatever that may be. Nice little tidbit to add to the brainpan. ^.^

Self-control is all up to you. It's your own rules applied to yourself, and you're the only one who can make it or break it. I think sometimes that's why it's so threatening to people - if they don't measure up to their own standard, there is no one to look at but themselves. Plus, it involves a lot of honesty with yourself; honesty about the areas where mistakes are made, or where control is lacking.

I think in either case, discipline plays an important role - if you're going to control another person, you have to have a basis for the authority to exercise that control, and discipline is a way to do that. And we also have to exercise self-discipline in order to reach self-control; training ourselves in response to stimuli, challenges, or mistakes. Making up our rules and enforcing them for ourselves.

In a relationship, control can entail all sorts of things; what a person can or can't wear, what the person can or can't eat, who s/he can or can't talk to, etc.

In a lot of ways, I like the "small" or more mundane expressions of control the most. Small things are often the biggest for me.

I was going to say that unhealthy control is generally destructive, but that might be too simple? I dunno. =p

But anyway, yeah - I like control. It's a secure place for me.

_____________________________

Midwestern Girl

"Obey your Master." Metallica


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RE: Control. - 3/10/2013 5:26:26 AM   
lilcracker


Posts: 243
Joined: 4/14/2012
Status: offline 		I always feel I am in control even though I am on the kneel side. If he gives an order it's up to me to follow through with that order. Simply said if I don't want to do it, I won't. That's very rare, however, in the back of my mind I know I have a choice and if the choice is to leave, so be it. Basically for me, I am totally head over heels for the man, I know what he expects of me and therefore I follow through. So the key aspect of control and self control is the relationship I have with the person I am with. If that relationship is built and remains on a firm foundation the control and self control sort of falls into place.

Healthy control is maintained I believe by communication, meeting half way and having similar tastes. Unhealthy would be feeling resentful about doing certain things, feeling afraid, coming here to the message boards to ask if this is right (because it just doesn't feel right to you.)


I like control that makes me feel good inside. If it's something that causes me stress, I definately don't like it. I can not give specific examples because for me it all depends on the person. Someone else having control of my finances always was a dislike however, my other half has proved himself more than once he is better at handling money than me and with him, it does not cause me anxiety. It wasn't always this way with us. It took time, and lots of communication over my anxiety over it.


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RE: Control. - 3/11/2013 8:19:12 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline 		For me, the word "control" is about myself. I can control myself which allows me to influence her. The way I influence her is by shaping her choices which requires that self control on my part. For instance, I cannot make Carol do anything but I can say, "If you do X I will divorce you." She still has to choose but I have defined what those choices are. Basically, anything involving me is always on MY terms but that requires a lot of self-discipline to make happen.

Control is defined as healthy / unhealthy by the outcome it produces (thanks RemoteUser). I dislike unhealthy outcomes.

Control, the way I have defined it above, is a core part of my self-image and so the absence of it would be completely shattering to me. Those times I find that I am not in control of myself I find it HIGHLY motivational to get in control. Controlling everyone else is almost an afterthought that happens automatically.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to ARIES83)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Control. - 3/11/2013 9:42:00 AM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:



What do people think are the key aspects of
control or self-control? How important is control to
you? what does control mean to you? ect...

Whats healthy/ unhealthy control to you?

Can you give any examples of types of control you
like/ dislike?


Control is a skill a tool one uses to get results. Control by it self has no emotional context... It's the results from what one is trying to control that creates the emotional context. I think effective control is necessary for any one. But it's the direction that control is manifested towards that is of key importance to me. When directed inwardly you have the action of exerting self control. Self control to me is the most important type of control for a successful relationship regardless of the type of relationship. But such control is only measured by its effectiveness to get the desired results. The better the results the more effective and skilled one is in being controlling either of one self or another.

Control to me is neither healthy or unhealthily by itself... It's the results or consequences of control that will determine is the skil was used for healthily ends or unhealthily ones. Keep in mind the effective use of opcontrol could mean the desired outcome for one and the unhealthily result for another. It's really a matter of prepective of the given results.

Lastly, I leave with this definition of control.

Control: the state where one uses varied actions in an ever changing environment to obtain a desired result consistently.

I think when relationships are on going and thriving. Their is a tremendous amount of control being exercised in a relationship to maintain that desired result.



_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Control. - 3/11/2013 5:19:05 PM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83

The last discussion I could find on this topic was
from 2006, I find that hard to believe, surely the
search isn't working...

Whats healthy/ unhealthy control to you?

Can you give any examples of types of control you
like/ dislike?


I dislike it from banks.

(in reply to ARIES83)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Control. - 3/11/2013 10:37:33 PM   
TAFKAA


Posts: 382
Joined: 1/5/2013
Status: offline 		Control means your will manifests. Pure and simple.

If you think you have control but do not, the outcomes your will desires will not manifest.

This applies to control over yourself and others.

_____________________________

The asshole formerly known as Awareness

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Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Control. - 3/12/2013 11:18:30 AM   
Kana


Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83

The last discussion I could find on this topic was
from 2006, I find that hard to believe, surely the
search isn't working...

I would be interested in hearing peoples opinions
about what exactly control entails in a D/s
relationship, and in general.

What do people think are the key aspects of
control or self-control? How important is control to
you? what does control mean to you? ect...

Whats healthy/ unhealthy control to you?

Can you give any examples of types of control you
like/ dislike?

Self control means everything to me. That's what allows me to control her.
As for importance, I've said it before and I'll say it again, I think D/S is the key to everything we, meaning she and I-not the rest of you lunatics, do. The sadism, the bondage, the slavery, that stems from her surrender. Which in turn came about because of my control and her longing to be controlled. If BDSM is a tree, the D/S forms the roots.

Healthy control is establishing dominion, as well as taking responsibility for, those things within my power. Attempting to establish said control on things beyond my reach is an exercise in futility, as well as unhealthy.

What kind of control do I like?
I like controlling her. I like the fact that I can simply say do this, and, hate it as much as she may, trembling, fighting herself every single step, she will obey.
That's power. That's hot.
That's how it felt when I told her to go get the hammer and nails so I could nail her tongue to the table.
And she did. Faithfully, fearfully, whimpering all the way, crawled away and returned with my tools.
Damn, that was sexy.
Not the act, but her fight with herself, her cresting of emotions, her surrender.
Not just to me, but to her own need, her own internal slave.
I'm not sure I've ever been prouder of her than that minute. My heart nearly burst for joy.



_____________________________

"One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die. "
HST

(in reply to ARIES83)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Control. - 3/12/2013 3:21:00 PM   
ARIES83


Posts: 3648
Status: offline 		Remote User,
I like your ideas about control, that's a interesting definition, I think I'd describe it a bit differently myself because self-control isn't such a separate matter for me.

And thank's, I've been abbreviating etcetera as "ect..." for ages until I actually saw you spell the whole thing and realise I been doing it wrong! 

LittleWonder,
Your post made me think of another thread where a sub was told she was "too strong" and there was a general theme in the replies along the lines off, "it may mean the guy is too weak" or something similar... 

My point being that those who value things like strength of character, self-control, intelligence in themselves would probably also appreciate those traits in a partner.
So I'm sure your right about Kana being attracted to your self-control amongst other things.

LillyBoPeep,
I agree, I think Control and Influences are intimately connected concepts.

Jeff,
I don't know how many times I've seen it first hand, I truly believe that authority, respect, control all stem from what kind of person you are.

And actually, I've found in this day and age, all you need to stand above the crowd, is to be a mature minded person with a bit of self-control and conviction.

So yea, I agree with you about the control beginning with yourself stuff, but I have to say, holding divorce over someone isn't how I'd personally run my railroad.

KnightofMists,
quote:

Control: the state where one uses varied actions in an ever changing environment to obtain a desired result consistently.


That's an interesting definition!

Kana...
What the hell man? You don't go nailing peoples tongues to tables!

Apart from that, I really like this quote:
quote:

As for importance, I've said it before and I'll say it again, I think D/S is the key to everything we, meaning she and I-not the rest of you lunatics, do. The sadism, the bondage, the slavery, that stems from her surrender. Which in turn came about because of my control and her longing to be controlled. If BDSM is a tree, the D/S forms the roots. 

Healthy control is establishing dominion, as well as taking responsibility for, those things within my power. Attempting to establish said control on things beyond my reach is an exercise in futility, as well as unhealthy.

Especially the blue part,
Nice job.

< Message edited by ARIES83 -- 3/12/2013 3:25:20 PM >

_____________________________

530 DAYS

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RE: Control. - 3/12/2013 3:41:51 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83
holding divorce over someone isn't how I'd personally run my railroad.

Actually, it's "being released" which is held over her head much more than being divorced. The divorce thing is a pretty unlikely scenario, I just happened to use it as an example. But I do not consider stating my boundaries in a clear and concise fashion "holding it over someone's head". I think of that as "dominance"... if you do X then Y will result. And yes, for a very small number of X's, then Y = "divorce".

In point of fact I'd argue that when it is so critical that divorce is actually an option is the BEST time to be crystal clear about cause & effect. Muddy boundaries are bad. Muddy boundaries with massive consequences are simply disasters waiting to happen.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to ARIES83)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Control. - 3/12/2013 6:39:51 PM   
ARIES83


Posts: 3648
Status: offline 		I think I get what you ment now...
Being clear about expectations.
Assigning consequences to behaviours you don't
want etc...
That right?
I think it came across before a bit like you were
very quick to put the divorce card on the table.

I agree, being clear about boundaries and
expected behaviours is important, just as is having
the motivation and discipline to keep on top of
them.

_____________________________

530 DAYS

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RE: Control. - 3/13/2013 1:35:39 AM   
LillyBoPeep


Posts: 6873
Joined: 12/29/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
But I do not consider stating my boundaries in a clear and concise fashion "holding it over someone's head". I think of that as "dominance"... if you do X then Y will result. And yes, for a very small number of X's, then Y = "divorce".

In point of fact I'd argue that when it is so critical that divorce is actually an option is the BEST time to be crystal clear about cause & effect. Muddy boundaries are bad. Muddy boundaries with massive consequences are simply disasters waiting to happen.



Agreed - The clarity is one of the things I appreciate most about the clearly-spelled-out power imbalance.




_____________________________

Midwestern Girl

"Obey your Master." Metallica


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Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Control. - 3/13/2013 8:32:38 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83
I think I get what you ment now...
Being clear about expectations.
Assigning consequences to behaviours you don't
want etc...
That right?

Give or take yeah. Remember that my viewpoint on this particular point is way more Gorean than it is BDSM which ends up framing the entire question differently.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to ARIES83)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Control. - 3/13/2013 11:43:55 AM   
TNDommeK


Posts: 7153
Joined: 3/13/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists


quote:



What do people think are the key aspects of
control or self-control? How important is control to
you? what does control mean to you? ect...

Whats healthy/ unhealthy control to you?

Can you give any examples of types of control you
like/ dislike?


Control is a skill a tool one uses to get results. Control by it self has no emotional context... It's the results from what one is trying to control that creates the emotional context. I think effective control is necessary for any one. But it's the direction that control is manifested towards that is of key importance to me. When directed inwardly you have the action of exerting self control. Self control to me is the most important type of control for a successful relationship regardless of the type of relationship. But such control is only measured by its effectiveness to get the desired results. The better the results the more effective and skilled one is in being controlling either of one self or another.

Control to me is neither healthy or unhealthily by itself... It's the results or consequences of control that will determine is the skil was used for healthily ends or unhealthily ones. Keep in mind the effective use of opcontrol could mean the desired outcome for one and the unhealthily result for another. It's really a matter of prepective of the given results.

Lastly, I leave with this definition of control.

Control: the state where one uses varied actions in an ever changing environment to obtain a desired result consistently.

I think when relationships are on going and thriving. Their is a tremendous amount of control being exercised in a relationship to maintain that desired result.



You know I have to say, I love reading your posts. Very well written and thought out.

_____________________________

Goddess of Duck Lips and Luxurious Hair
The working Fin Domme
Professional con artist, swindler, trixster, extortionist

Our snark-nado needs more cowbell


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Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Control. - 3/13/2013 12:03:51 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TNDommeK
You know I have to say, I love reading your posts. Very well written and thought out.

In my not-so-humble opinion, KoM is one of the wisest posters on this site.


_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to TNDommeK)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Control. - 3/13/2013 12:45:55 PM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		First, let's define our term.

As a noun, control is 'the power to influence or direct people's behavior or the course of events.'

As a verb, it's to 'determine the behavior or supervise the running of.'

Himself always influences my behavior, b/c we're a couple. Everything I do is done with that in mind. He directs my behavior if he gives me a command, as in 'go get me a coke.' He directs the course of events by leading the relationship and making the big picture decisions, like where we're going for vacation.

He supervises what I do by quite simply having me report about my day to him, and occasionally asking up front what I have planned. For the most part he doesn't feel I need a great deal of supervision, but I've given him the power to supervise the minutia of my day should he want to.

As for self control, that stems from self discipline, the ability to see how you should act a/o behave along with having the inner strength to carry that insight through. Someone who does not have much self control should (most obviously) not be controlling another.

Controlling another also takes insight and inner strength. It also takes having an idea of where you are and a vision of where you want to be.

Unhealthy control? I see much of what is unhealthy in BDSM relationship having to do with intent. If your intention is to control someone in a harmful way or for the purposes of causing them harm, then that's abusive. Of course, figuring out intent is not easy, especially in volatile, highly emotionally charged relationships.

Controlling those volatile highly charged emotions often comes with age and experience. What appropriate for a teen-ager or someone in their early 20s is different from what you can and should expect from someone a few decades older.

In that other thread there was a statement about a dom never losing control, and never getting angry. Doms are human too.

What counts is how someone (dom or not) manages to channel negative emotion. Do they have the self insight necessary to identify how they are feeling early on in the process (a first step in gaining control)? Or do they 'lash out' -- and say or do things they don't mean?

It's my opinion everyone is capable of acting out, if they are tired, and don't feel well, yadaya, people get cranky. But do you take it out on your loved ones? (Or strangers for that matter.)

Just b/c you're angry, that doesn't mean you *have* to take it out on someone else. That is an indicator of repressed anger that can become very abusive.


_____________________________



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Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Control. - 3/13/2013 1:21:52 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to ChatteParfaitt)
Profile   Post #: 20
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