RE: Pregnancy Triggers State Surveillance and Control Over Women in the USA

RE: Pregnancy Triggers State Surveillance and Control Over Women in the USA (Full Version)

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breagha -> RE: Pregnancy Triggers State Surveillance and Control Over Women in the USA (3/12/2013 6:22:54 PM)
from what i gather from the links she attempted suicide 8 days before a c section. was the c section because of the suicide attempt? she was at 33 weeks. her daughter lived for 4 days. i would be interested in finding something about why the c section was performed. as well as if there were complications because the baby was born 6 weeks early. of course the rat poison could ( and probably did in some way ) have done damage to the unborn baby but it seems to me that the damage done would have caused her to die in the womb as opposed to four days after she was born. i'm very curious about finding further facts to many aspects of this story. my search begins... ETA: quote: She was hospitalized and doctors detected little wrong with the fetus' health for the first few days. i'm still looking to see if sometime withing that 8 day window they did detect something wrong...

tazzygirl -> RE: Pregnancy Triggers State Surveillance and Control Over Women in the USA (3/12/2013 7:47:04 PM)
from what i gather from the links she attempted suicide 8 days before a c section. was the c section because of the suicide attempt? she was at 33 weeks. her daughter lived for 4 days. Depending on how much she consumed, it could take that long before problems began. She ate the poison, not drank it, which means it takes longer to absorb, then it has to go through her system, into the fetus. They would also be waiting to give the meds to help mature the lungs time to work. The baby died from cerebral hemorrhaging. Which is what anti-coagulant rat poisoning causes.

Real0ne -> RE: Pregnancy Triggers State Surveillance and Control Over Women in the USA (3/12/2013 8:22:37 PM)
nice way to blame her for a medical error. Had they left it alone and fed her coagulants waited 6 weeks the baby would have have been fine.

tazzygirl -> RE: Pregnancy Triggers State Surveillance and Control Over Women in the USA (3/12/2013 9:51:31 PM)
LOL Do me a favor, when you get some medical knowledge to understand even half of the mistakes you just made in your one post, come back and let me know. Ok?

Real0ne -> RE: Pregnancy Triggers State Surveillance and Control Over Women in the USA (3/12/2013 10:10:29 PM)
LMAO Do us all a favor and when you get some real world EXPERIENCE come back and try again.

tazzygirl -> RE: Pregnancy Triggers State Surveillance and Control Over Women in the USA (3/12/2013 10:16:49 PM)
Darlin.... Labor and Delivery IS my real world experience Try again [;)]

tweakabelle -> RE: Pregnancy Triggers State Surveillance and Control Over Women in the USA (3/13/2013 1:41:08 AM)
"[Women] are no longer allowed to be mentally ill or suffering while pregnant, even though the hormones can render you both and you have no control over that." http://www.politicususa.com/biology-triggers-state-surveillance-control-humans.html I am deeply troubled by this extract from the OP. While its precise meaning is unclear, it seems to be saying that mental illness or suffering while pregnant is not a legal defence under the feticide laws. Is this a correct interpretation? If it is a correct interpretation, my reaction is that it is preposterous. More so as in this case Shuai's suicide attempt tells me that the balance of her mind was clearly unstable. Given the circumstances - Shuai was pregnant and abandoned callously by the father of her child - it is clear that Shuai was not in a position to make balanced and responsible decisions at the time in question. Could someone please tell me I am mistaken in this interpretation?

LillyBoPeep -> RE: Pregnancy Triggers State Surveillance and Control Over Women in the USA (3/13/2013 1:50:44 AM)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/24/new-mexico-abortion-bill_n_2541894.html http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/01/24/new-mexico-abortion-evidence-tampering/1862767/ here are a couple of articles with regards to the "fetus as evidence of crime" stuff. it's a real thing, from new mexico.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Pregnancy Triggers State Surveillance and Control Over Women in the USA (3/13/2013 2:32:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle "[Women] are no longer allowed to be mentally ill or suffering while pregnant, even though the hormones can render you both and you have no control over that." http://www.politicususa.com/biology-triggers-state-surveillance-control-humans.html I am deeply troubled by this extract from the OP. While its precise meaning is unclear, it seems to be saying that mental illness or suffering while pregnant is not a legal defence under the feticide laws. Is this a correct interpretation? If it is a correct interpretation, my reaction is that it is preposterous. More so as in this case Shuai's suicide attempt tells me that the balance of her mind was clearly unstable. Given the circumstances - Shuai was pregnant and abandoned callously by the father of her child - it is clear that Shuai was not in a position to make balanced and responsible decisions at the time in question. Could someone please tell me I am mistaken in this interpretation? Hell, she could be in for an awful lot of therapy regardless of the outcome of her trial. But, there was no proof offered by the author, and there were an awful lot of opinions in the article. She brought up South Carolina being one of the first to pass fetal safety laws but only having charged one man while arrested over 300 women. Now, that's incredulous on first blush, but there is no link, and no proof that the 300+ women weren't guilty and no mention of the outcome of the SC guy's charges. Further: quote: The personhood police don’t care if a man kills a preborn while violently attacking the female carrier, but if a woman causes harm by accident, they lock her up. Any questions about intent? You are a uterus, and it sucks to be you in America. Scott Peterson, anyone? If the opinions presented by the author are true, it is an abuse of the law. But, I think the truth lies somewhere between what she has presented and reality.

Moonhead -> RE: Pregnancy Triggers State Surveillance and Control Over Women in the USA (3/13/2013 5:40:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead She was trying to kill herself, not the kid, tazzy. Well if she thought the kid would be okay, there's a fucking Darwin award in her future. K. It's unlikely she gave a flying fuck about the kid one way or the other. That's as much of a stretch as tazzy's point.

tweakabelle -> RE: Pregnancy Triggers State Surveillance and Control Over Women in the USA (3/13/2013 6:24:51 AM)
Thanks for the links LillyBoPeep. This legislation is grotesque: Here's what H.B. 206 says: "A. Tampering with evidence consists of destroying, changing, hiding, placing or fabricating any physical evidence with intent to prevent the apprehension, prosecution or conviction of any person or to throw suspicion of the commission of a crime upon another. B. Tampering with evidence shall include procuring or facilitating an abortion, or compelling or coercing another to obtain an abortion, of a fetus that is the result of criminal sexual penetration or incest with the intent to destroy evidence of the crime." http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/01/24/new-mexico-abortion-evidence-tampering/1862767/ So having an abortion after being raped or subjected to incest would now count as "tampering with evidence" - a criminal offence !!! Is there no depth too low for these lunatics ?

thishereboi -> RE: Pregnancy Triggers State Surveillance and Control Over Women in the USA (3/13/2013 6:27:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic thats why she was charged with fetuside...not infanticide it hadnt been born UNTIL she was cut open when she tried to "kill herself" Which doesn't change the fact that it wasn't a fetus that died.

Lucylastic -> RE: Pregnancy Triggers State Surveillance and Control Over Women in the USA (3/13/2013 6:29:35 AM)
apparently it is in the eyes of the law thats why she was charged with fetuscide...not infanticide

DesideriScuri -> RE: Pregnancy Triggers State Surveillance and Control Over Women in the USA (3/13/2013 7:10:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Thanks for the links LillyBoPeep. This legislation is grotesque: Here's what H.B. 206 says: "A. Tampering with evidence consists of destroying, changing, hiding, placing or fabricating any physical evidence with intent to prevent the apprehension, prosecution or conviction of any person or to throw suspicion of the commission of a crime upon another. B. Tampering with evidence shall include procuring or facilitating an abortion, or compelling or coercing another to obtain an abortion, of a fetus that is the result of criminal sexual penetration or incest with the intent to destroy evidence of the crime." http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/01/24/new-mexico-abortion-evidence-tampering/1862767/ So having an abortion after being raped or subjected to incest would now count as "tampering with evidence" - a criminal offence !!! Is there no depth too low for these lunatics ? A. Stipulates what actions are considered "tampering" when done "with intent to prevent the apprehension, prosecution or conviction of any person or to throw suspicion of the commission of a crime upon another." B includes "ith the intent to destroy evidence of the crime." The intent behind the action is required in determining the applicability of the definition. Could it be abused and used to arrest women getting abortions from rape/incest? Yes, it could. Would it stand up in a court of law? I'm going to guess that it wouldn't, since the intent isn't there and Prosecution would have to prove that it was.

thishereboi -> RE: Pregnancy Triggers State Surveillance and Control Over Women in the USA (3/13/2013 7:11:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic apparently it is in the eyes of the law thats why she was charged with fetuscide...not infanticide I am not familiar with the legal aspects of why they charged her with that. Perhaps because it was a fetus when she took the poison. But that still doesn't change the fact that it wasn't a fetus that died, it was a newborn.

mnottertail -> RE: Pregnancy Triggers State Surveillance and Control Over Women in the USA (3/13/2013 7:12:13 AM)
The language isnt murky, it is crystal clear that is the intent.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Pregnancy Triggers State Surveillance and Control Over Women in the USA (3/13/2013 7:14:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic apparently it is in the eyes of the law thats why she was charged with fetuscide...not infanticide I'm going to guess it wasn't considered "infanticide" because the actions occurred before the infant was born. Thus, it was still a fetus. That it died after it was birthed wouldn't necessarily change that, unless there were actions taken post-birth. If a person commits a crime when he/she is a minor and doesn't go to trial until after becoming an "adult," the person isn't charged as an adult since the crime was committed while the person was a minor (individual cases may vary and depend on the specifics of the situation).

DesideriScuri -> RE: Pregnancy Triggers State Surveillance and Control Over Women in the USA (3/13/2013 7:17:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail The language isnt murky, it is crystal clear that is the intent. Which intent? The intent of the law, or the intent of the action that is being considered tampering?

mnottertail -> RE: Pregnancy Triggers State Surveillance and Control Over Women in the USA (3/13/2013 7:22:40 AM)
Both, you get raped you cant abort, its evidence tampering.

tazzygirl -> RE: Pregnancy Triggers State Surveillance and Control Over Women in the USA (3/13/2013 7:28:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl IF the experts could say the rat poisoning killed the child, then I would say... hang her. But, from what I have read, they cannot determine cause. She was trying to kill herself, not the kid, tazzy. What sort of ridiculous stretch is that? For heaven's sake, if she was just trying to get shot of the pregnancy, gin's a lot less likely to cause her harm than rat poison. Moon, problem is that at 8 months pregnant, she was well aware of the child inside of her. And I simply cannot condone someone ending that life because they wanted to end their own.

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