RE: Pregnancy Triggers State Surveillance and Control Over Women in the USA

RE: Pregnancy Triggers State Surveillance and Control Over Women in the USA (Full Version)

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egern -> RE: Pregnancy Triggers State Surveillance and Control Over Women in the USA (3/13/2013 9:22:09 AM)
quote: Moon, problem is that at 8 months pregnant, she was well aware of the child inside of her. And I simply cannot condone someone ending that life because they wanted to end their own. I think that it is impossible to imagine what other people may or may not go through. I think that the person in this situation is the person on the spot, and the only person who has a right to decide. I mean, not even the father was interested. I do not see life as so sacred that you (generic, of course) have to save it at all costs, because I think what happens is that that concept tends not to see longer than to life. What I mean is, what life would this child have had? What life is it that many children have? And how short? (Talking all the world here, wars, hunger.) I cannot see how all that matters is that a life in put into the world, and then - who cares what happens to it?? Would it be hijacking the thread if I compare this with assisted suicide? The people who argue against are telling other people what to do, though they are not in their situation and do not feel the unbearable pain these people who want to die feel, for whatever reason. How can you (all 'you's' are generic here) have principles that doom other people to hell? What about drones - with lots of innocent killings? Why do these lives not matter? What about bombing abort clinics, killing all in there? It just seems to me that the concept of 'life is sacred' while off-hand sounding right, is so full of problems.

Real0ne -> RE: Pregnancy Triggers State Surveillance and Control Over Women in the USA (3/13/2013 9:33:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Darlin.... Labor and Delivery IS my real world experience Try again [;)] so you are in the poisoned baby delivery business huh? doubt it. We all know you are in the tin foil hat business. ron has taught you well how to avoid the tough questions

Real0ne -> RE: Pregnancy Triggers State Surveillance and Control Over Women in the USA (3/13/2013 9:36:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: egern How can you (all 'you's' are generic here) have principles that doom other people to hell? just one of the benefits of a demobcracy in action. as you can see they will soon tell you that girls every thought and rubber stamp an appropriated punishment at a profit for that which they had no legitimate jurisdiction in the first place.

tazzygirl -> RE: Pregnancy Triggers State Surveillance and Control Over Women in the USA (3/13/2013 9:44:41 AM)
quote: I do not see life as so sacred that you (generic, of course) have to save it at all costs, because I think what happens is that that concept tends not to see longer than to life. I dont see it as sacred. I do see it as.. gee hon... you had 22 weeks to abort. YOU made the decision to carry the pregnancy further. YOU took that responsibility upon yourself. YOU decided that, under US law, you were in agreement with the pregnancy laws here... Just because after 22 weeks she "owns" her body does not give her the right to abort the child she carries. Until that law is changed.... quote: What I mean is, what life would this child have had? We will never know the possibilities. quote: What life is it that many children have? Some extremely good, some bad. Is there a point? quote: And how short? (Talking all the world here, wars, hunger.) Until age 18 when a child in the US attains adulthood and can actually go to war, it has a fighting chance. We dont have wars here ~knock on wood quote: I cannot see how all that matters is that a life in put into the world, and then - who cares what happens to it?? And I cannot accept terminating a viable life because someone didnt get the white picket fence and bed of roses she was dreaming of. Sorry, reality is, if you lay down with dogs, you will wake up with fleas. Her man was a dog. He screwed her over. Happens many times a day. Do we now excuse all the women who kill their children because they are emotionally distraught? Susan Smith, SC, might wanna take a look. US laws are heavy debated on the abortion issue. You will find very few in disagreement after the age of viability. I am pro-choice... until that age of viability. quote: Would it be hijacking the thread if I compare this with assisted suicide? The people who argue against are telling other people what to do, though they are not in their situation and do not feel the unbearable pain these people who want to die feel, for whatever reason. How can you (all 'you's' are generic here) have principles that doom other people to hell? What doom? Adoption is easy in the US. Thats hardly analogous with assisted suicide of someone who is in so much physical pain that they simply want that physical pain to end. quote: What about drones - with lots of innocent killings? Why do these lives not matter? Dont know. Nor is it pertinent to this discussion. I am sure all those mothers hate the fact that their children are dead. I do. Is that an excuse to terminate a viable pregnancy, because they may die? we all may die... in fact, we all will die ar some point. quote: What about bombing abort clinics, killing all in there? I am assuming you meant bombing abortion clinics. Typically a pro-life stance. Something you will find very very few agreeing with on these boards as being right, or an excuse to terminate an 8 month pregnancy. quote: It just seems to me that the concept of 'life is sacred' while off-hand sounding right, is so full of problems. Because you are negating the simple fact that, until the age of viability, she could have, at any time, aborted. SHE made the decision not too. Under law, once the age of viability is attained, her choices are limited.

tazzygirl -> RE: Pregnancy Triggers State Surveillance and Control Over Women in the USA (3/13/2013 9:45:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Darlin.... Labor and Delivery IS my real world experience Try again [;)] so you are in the poisoned baby delivery business huh? doubt it. We all know you are in the tin foil hat business. ron has taught you well how to avoid the tough questions When you ask a tough question, I will refer to him for the answer. So far, in the year we have been on these boards, you havent asked a tough one yet.

Lucylastic -> RE: Pregnancy Triggers State Surveillance and Control Over Women in the USA (3/13/2013 12:32:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic apparently it is in the eyes of the law thats why she was charged with fetuscide...not infanticide I'm going to guess it wasn't considered "infanticide" because the actions occurred before the infant was born. Thus, it was still a fetus. That it died after it was birthed wouldn't necessarily change that, unless there were actions taken post-birth. If a person commits a crime when he/she is a minor and doesn't go to trial until after becoming an "adult," the person isn't charged as an adult since the crime was committed while the person was a minor (individual cases may vary and depend on the specifics of the situation). I believe I said that. There is too much not known with certainty about this, I dont have the time to look into it, to satisfy my mind There isnt enough medical information to say why they c sectioned her, wether she was unconscious at the time, which would lean towards a serious suicide attempt in my opinion, or wether she just took enough to make herself a lil bit sick and kill the child, neither would surprise me, but in this case there are not enough details yet. Suicide or adoption is a no brainer to me...but it isnt to everyone, I cant condone her doing an abortion that late in the pregnancy. Even if she found out that day that the father was married and dumped her... Did she call the friend to make sure she would be found? How sick did it make her? all questions going thru my mind, Ive known more than a few women get suicidal during pregnancy, but to do enough rat poison to kill just the fetus is yeah par for charges and conviction. Altho I should think mitigating circumstances would apply

DesideriScuri -> RE: Pregnancy Triggers State Surveillance and Control Over Women in the USA (3/13/2013 12:45:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic apparently it is in the eyes of the law thats why she was charged with fetuscide...not infanticide I'm going to guess it wasn't considered "infanticide" because the actions occurred before the infant was born. Thus, it was still a fetus. That it died after it was birthed wouldn't necessarily change that, unless there were actions taken post-birth. If a person commits a crime when he/she is a minor and doesn't go to trial until after becoming an "adult," the person isn't charged as an adult since the crime was committed while the person was a minor (individual cases may vary and depend on the specifics of the situation). I believe I said that. I was, essentially, agreeing with you, and detailing why, not so much for your edification, but for others that may read these and ponder. [:)]

Moonhead -> RE: Pregnancy Triggers State Surveillance and Control Over Women in the USA (3/13/2013 3:32:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl I would agree, and that still needs to be determined. Yet, it also takes a massive amount of rat poisoning to kill a human.... unless that human is a fetus. Very few people who try to kill themselves with poison have a clue about toxicology, sadly: it's only people in your own line of work who have much of an inkling how much of the stuff they'll need to make sure that they don't wake up again as a rule.

tazzygirl -> RE: Pregnancy Triggers State Surveillance and Control Over Women in the USA (3/13/2013 7:07:11 PM)
In this technology age I find that hard to believe.

erieangel -> RE: Pregnancy Triggers State Surveillance and Control Over Women in the USA (3/13/2013 9:10:55 PM)
Believe it. Unless she took the time to look up how much rat poison she would have to take to "not wake up", she wouldn't have known how much she needed to take. Also, I don't think she was at all about her pregnancy at the time. She just wanted to die. Unless you've been suicidal yourself, you'd never know the feeling or what goes through a person's mind when one becomes suicidal. I know what it is like. Thankfully, I have spent more time when I've been suicidal in planning my own elaborate death than in actually attempting it. But I have attempted suicide. And when things got to that point where I attempted my death, nothing else mattered. Not my kids, not the rest of my family, not my dreams for the future. NOTHING. I live by a motto of "This too shall pass". And when things get so bad that I've attempted suicide, I've forgotten that my problems will pass eventually. It is a travesty that a depressed, suicidal woman must now suffer the indignity of facing criminal charges and possible prison time for the death of her child.

tazzygirl -> RE: Pregnancy Triggers State Surveillance and Control Over Women in the USA (3/14/2013 3:48:50 AM)
quote: Also, I don't think she was at all about her pregnancy at the time. She just wanted to die. Unless you've been suicidal yourself, you'd never know the feeling or what goes through a person's mind when one becomes suicidal. I know what it is like. I have been. I wont go into any more detail than that. quote: It is a travesty that a depressed, suicidal woman must now suffer the indignity of facing criminal charges and possible prison time for the death of her child. Then why dont we let this woman go as well? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Smith We usually agree on much. I didnt appreciate the digs. You are assuming she did no homework. I made no such assumption. However, if the woman is that suicidal she needs to be locked up where she can get some kind of help. And that place starts, for her, with the courts.

Moonhead -> RE: Pregnancy Triggers State Surveillance and Control Over Women in the USA (3/14/2013 5:40:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl In this technology age I find that hard to believe. What erie said. It's true that a lot of suicide attempts aren't intended to work and are more attention seeking, but it's also true that it can be very hard to kill yourself if you don't have a clue what you're doing. I'm sure you know that the main reason there's such a high suicide rate in the medical profession isn't because of easy access to lethal medication, it's because there aren't any failed suicide attempts, and that gives the figures a massive boost. Drugs and poison is one of the most popular methods of suicide, but it's also one of the least effective. While it would be easy to get online and do some research about how many boxes of rat poison you'd have to eat in order to kill yourself, if you're far gone enough to actually try it you're probably going to think that doing so is far too much bother, and a couple of handfuls (or whatever you manage to choke down) will be plenty. Think about it, tazzy: most people don't even know that they're better off using paracetemol for an overdose because that'll fuck their liver up even if it doesn't kill them immediately. (also: the reference to Susan Smith is a pretty cheap shot, isn't it? There's a difference between trying to kill yourself without making provisions for a late term pregnancy and murdering your children and then claiming they were stolen by car jackers.)

tazzygirl -> RE: Pregnancy Triggers State Surveillance and Control Over Women in the USA (3/14/2013 5:53:41 AM)
She left a suicide note. Until we know what was in that note, how she was found, who found her, and her condition once she hit the hospital, as well as the reasons for the c-section, all of this is speculation. And in order to get to the truth, there has to be an investigation. Upon that investigation, they decide if a trial is warranted. Someone made that decision. What would YOU prefer to happen? A pat on the hand? An "Im sorry hon, I know you were depressed, its all ok"? I simply cannot get past the fact that a viable fetus was born, and died, and possibly because of the intentions of the one who carried it. (Possibly because, as I stated earlier, we dont know it was the rat poisoning that caused the hemorrhaging.) quote: (also: the reference to Susan Smith is a pretty cheap shot, isn't it? There's a difference between trying to kill yourself without making provisions for a late term pregnancy and murdering your children and then claiming they were stolen by car jackers.) I disagree. One of the defenses was depression coupled with years of abuse, Many still believe she did it because the rich boyfriend didnt want a family.

Moonhead -> RE: Pregnancy Triggers State Surveillance and Control Over Women in the USA (3/14/2013 6:30:47 AM)
You don't think that twenty years is an excessive sentence for "infanticide" and that the fact that a woman was driven to try to kill herself is being ignored in the self righteous point scoring by right to lifers who wouldn't have given a flying fuck if she'd brought the kid to term and then its father had quietly fed it down the incinerator, then?

tazzygirl -> RE: Pregnancy Triggers State Surveillance and Control Over Women in the USA (3/14/2013 6:32:10 AM)
quote: You don't think that twenty years is an excessive sentence for "infanticide" and that the fact that a woman was driven to try to kill herself is being ignored in the self righteous point scoring by right to lifers who wouldn't have given a flying fuck if she'd brought the kid to term and then its father had quietly fed it down the incinerator, then? I dont know if its excessive. Wouldnt that depend on the case?

Moonhead -> RE: Pregnancy Triggers State Surveillance and Control Over Women in the USA (3/14/2013 6:44:44 AM)
It would, but as you're apparently taking it for granted that she opted to use rat poison to get rid of the kid rather than as a serious suicide attempt, I doubt there's much room for debate on that.

tazzygirl -> RE: Pregnancy Triggers State Surveillance and Control Over Women in the USA (3/14/2013 6:46:00 AM)
You are assuming she did so strictly because she wanted to end her own life. I have seen too much to have that view.

Moonhead -> RE: Pregnancy Triggers State Surveillance and Control Over Women in the USA (3/14/2013 6:53:42 AM)
If she was purely trying to get rid of the kid, she'd have used a coat hanger, not rat poison.

tazzygirl -> RE: Pregnancy Triggers State Surveillance and Control Over Women in the USA (3/14/2013 7:01:00 AM)
Now you are being simplistic. Women try various ways to obtain what they desire. http://www.womenscenter.com/history_abortion.html

Moonhead -> RE: Pregnancy Triggers State Surveillance and Control Over Women in the USA (3/14/2013 7:13:04 AM)
While we're posting internet links... The following points are particularly salient. quote: Men account for the most suicide completions, but women make the most attempts by a factor of four to one. quote: Women typically attempt to poison themselves, either with drugs or non-pharmaceutical chemicals. In this country, with access to high-powered poisons restricted by law, and ready access to sophisticated resuscitation techniques, the proportion of failed poisoning attempts is quite high, and women die far less often than men, who typically choose firearms. In countries where access to highly lethal poisons is less restricted, more women than men complete their suicide attempts. Wiki's worth a look as well. quote: 75% of all suicide attempts are by the use of drugs, a method that is often thwarted because the drug is nonlethal or is used at a nonlethal dosage. These people survive 97% of the time. quote: 300,000 (or more) Americans survive a suicide attempt each year. I'm more inclined, myself, to suspect that she was part of the 300,000+ people incompetent to kill themselves, than somebody who'd done the research into how much rat poison would kill the kid without harming her. There's simpler and safer ways of causing a miscarriage. The notion that she'd written a suicide note purely to have an alibi for killing the baby doesn't have anything to support it as yet, after all.

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