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[Poll]

At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy become criminal?


When you merely think about the fantasy?
  16% (11)
When you do any act in favor of the fantasy?
  33% (23)
When you actually perform the fantasy?
  50% (34)


Total Votes : 68
(last vote on : 4/6/2013 3:17:30 PM)
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RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/14/2013 3:42:23 PM   
Darkfeather


Posts: 1142
Joined: 3/13/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkfeather

So obviously I am in the minority here in, you know, wanting commission. So lets go with it then, call Gilberto what he is, the evil murderin, flesh eating basterd that he is. Then why not cut out the middle man? Why not do like they did in the old west, and drag him out of the jail and lynch him? Public opinion is that he is guilty, certainly everyone here feels he is. So why isn't everyone screaming for the head of the "Cannibal Cop". According to popular belief, he what, was minutes away from stalking and eating a whole list of innocent young women. Hell all of the tri-state area was not safe, and he even slept with a lobster bib at night. Why would anyone believing a person this evil, settle for conspiracy, and a MAX of life in prison? Me, if someone commits a capital crime, they deserve death. No coddling in prison for life, no mental hospital (and if you believe he did this, he definitely was not insane). No, if he is the monster portrayed, then why is no one screaming for lethal injection, gas chamber, firing squad, hell even rusty nail?
I don't care what public opinion is. The jury found him guilty of conspiracy. Unless I'm mistaken, conspiracy isn't a capital offense in the states that still have the death penalty. I believe New York squashed the death penalty in 2007.

I know you don't get it, but there really was "commission" of conspiracy.



And my question wasn't what the sentence of conspiracy was, nor what the jury convicted him of... My question was if the people in general, and those in this thread feel he is guilty of some horrible crime, then why aren't they screaming for a harsh sentence (and life is NOT a harsh sentence)? Is that such a hard question to ask, apparently it is, because once again, it goes unanswered

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 141
RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/14/2013 3:47:57 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		Actually, yeah, I did.

Even if the public thought he should receive the death penalty, he can't. The State of New York doesn't allow it. Prior to 2007 when the State of New York had a death penalty, conspiracy wouldn't have been a capital crime.

He didn't kill people (capital offense). He conspired to kill people (not a capital offense) and was found guilty of that crime.

I'm seriously having difficulty understanding why you don't get this.




_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to Darkfeather)
Profile   Post #: 142
RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/14/2013 3:51:02 PM   
KrazyJester


Posts: 34
Joined: 7/25/2011
Status: offline 		Because its not our decision to make....... It's the state and judges. We can scream chop off his head all we want, Which frankly in my opinion would be going to far, but ultimately it is the legal systems judgement call, and as ladypact said it is not that type of sentence nor is a legal in that state.

(in reply to Darkfeather)
Profile   Post #: 143
RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/14/2013 4:04:41 PM   
muhly22222


Posts: 463
Joined: 3/25/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkfeather

So obviously I am in the minority here in, you know, wanting commission. So lets go with it then, call Gilberto what he is, the evil murderin, flesh eating basterd that he is. Then why not cut out the middle man? Why not do like they did in the old west, and drag him out of the jail and lynch him? Public opinion is that he is guilty, certainly everyone here feels he is. So why isn't everyone screaming for the head of the "Cannibal Cop". According to popular belief, he what, was minutes away from stalking and eating a whole list of innocent young women. Hell all of the tri-state area was not safe, and he even slept with a lobster bib at night. Why would anyone believing a person this evil, settle for conspiracy, and a MAX of life in prison? Me, if someone commits a capital crime, they deserve death. No coddling in prison for life, no mental hospital (and if you believe he did this, he definitely was not insane). No, if he is the monster portrayed, then why is no one screaming for lethal injection, gas chamber, firing squad, hell even rusty nail?


I can't speak for everybody else, obviously, but conspiracy isn't a capital offense, nor should it be. Capital punishment is the must serious punishment available in the criminal justice system, and therefore the rule of proportionality decrees that it only be used for the most serious offense(s). Thankfully, the use of the death penalty has been restricted to cases of first-degree murder...and nothing else. Not rape, not kidnapping, not even sex offenses with a child.

Commission does matter, as in the crime that he commits. He didn't commit the offense of murder. If he'd been able to go through with his plans, I wouldn't have opposed the imposition of the death penalty; in fact, I think he'd be one of the more deserving candidates (assuming that the offense he committed was comparable to his fantasies). But he did commit the offense of conspiracy to kidnap. That is what he should be punished for...not what he might have done had he gone unchecked.

(in reply to Darkfeather)
Profile   Post #: 144
RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/14/2013 4:28:41 PM   
Darkfeather


Posts: 1142
Joined: 3/13/2007
Status: offline 		Ok, how about this, nice simple english? I gave my opinion as to why he should not have been charged for conspiracy, right? What I am asking for is opinions on why no one feels he deserves the death penalty *sigh*. Does that make my question clearer for everyone?

(in reply to muhly22222)
Profile   Post #: 145
RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/14/2013 4:33:06 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		Conspiracy not being a capital offense isn't good enough for you? If it helps, I don't believe in the death penalty for grand theft auto, either.


ETA - Hold on. I don't want to just intentionally be a smart ass.

OK, I get that you don't agree that conspiracy should be a crime. You're cool with people planning out scenarios that will harm others without obtaining their consent to participate in kinky stuff. According to this thread, your posts have given the impression that it is ok to stalk, invade people's private information, observe potential victims for patterns of opportunity, and even incorporate another person into plans, and all of that should be fine.

The thing is, according to the State of New York, this is a crime. So, frankly, your opinion doesn't agree with the State of New York. I happen to agree with the State of New York because the conviction of conspiracy prevents the individual from carrying out his plan. Did it prevent a kidnap, assault, and bodily injury of another individual? Maybe. I'd say it's more likely that he can't carry it out in prison.


< Message edited by LadyPact -- 3/14/2013 4:44:09 PM >

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to Darkfeather)
Profile   Post #: 146
RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/14/2013 4:38:49 PM   
KrazyJester


Posts: 34
Joined: 7/25/2011
Status: offline 		So in further English what your trying to get people to say is " because he didn't commit the actual crime of kidnapping murder,ect.... " and then you say "ah ha" which is still invalid to trying to prove your point. He deserves, in my opinion, life with possibility of parole.

< Message edited by KrazyJester -- 3/14/2013 4:53:30 PM >

(in reply to Darkfeather)
Profile   Post #: 147
RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/14/2013 4:43:54 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

And you didn't even answer my question...

Why would anyone believing a person this evil, settle for conspiracy, and a MAX of life in prison


I thought it was obvious...I was not on the jury and was not privy to the judge's instructions and evidence....Were you?

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Darkfeather)
Profile   Post #: 148
RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/14/2013 4:55:03 PM   
FrostedFlake


Posts: 3084
Joined: 3/4/2009
From: Centralia, Washington
Status: offline 		I agree with Darkfeather.

I don't think anyone should be convicted of anything his peers are not convinced beyond reasonable doubt about. And, absent the extraordinary, I don't think an extra ordinary sentence is justifiable.

Let's take a look at what we are talking about.

http://cbsnewyork.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/gilberto-valle-complaint.pdf

Referring to the Complaint, and pretending you read it, when one man agrees for a sum of money to deliver to another an unconscious third person in a box in order that third person may be raped, barbequed alive and then eaten... What you have is an agreement to perform an interstate kidnapping for money. The penalty for such an agreement is any term of years up to life. The penalty for actually carrying the plan into action is higher, LWOP or Death, but only if the victim is actually killed.

To put that another way, as the law is now written, the mere plan to barbeque ones date is treated as seriously as actually doing it, so long as you hold off at simply grotesquely disfiguring your victim. And when you consider all the nitpicking the prosecutor is likely to engage in to grandstand for the public :

* degree of planning or premeditation
* number of perpetrators
* vulnerability of victim
* duration of loss of liberty
* using, brandishing, threatening with or possession of weapons
* other offence(s) committed
* sophisticated concealment
* unpleasant circumstances of detention, such as degradation
* effect upon victim
* effect upon persons other than the person kidnapped, particularly family
* other offence(s) committed
* sinister motive, such as terrorist background
* any ransom involved
* threats intended to discourage victim from reporting the offence

Which would seem to be the Gamut, it seems clear that Mr. Valle will receive not Life, but a term of years sufficient to amount to LWOP.

Which seems to be excessive. Until you notice that being a cop is not among the standard aggravating factors. And it sure as fuck is one. Because you are not allowed to even walk away. And he can order anyone else to do just that.

That is special.

refs :
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/01/04/fbi-second-arrest-made-in-cannibal-cop-case/
http://www.lodopc.com/Federal-Crimes/Kidnapping-Charges.shtml
http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/sentencing_manual/kidnapping_false_imprisonment/


_____________________________

Frosted Flake
simul justus et peccator
Einen Liebhaber, und halten Sie die Schraube

"... evil (and hilarious) !!" Hlen5

(in reply to muhly22222)
Profile   Post #: 149
RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/14/2013 5:00:02 PM   
FrostedFlake


Posts: 3084
Joined: 3/4/2009
From: Centralia, Washington
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkfeather

Ok, how about this, nice simple english? I gave my opinion as to why he should not have been charged for conspiracy, right? What I am asking for is opinions on why no one feels he deserves the death penalty *sigh*. Does that make my question clearer for everyone?


I stand corrected.

I don't agree with Darkfeather.

Interesting that the law disagrees with him still, though his position APPEARS to have changed.

If only I read that before I posted.

I suppose I could edit.

But things might change again. This way, I've both wickets covered.

edit : Double quote.

< Message edited by FrostedFlake -- 3/14/2013 5:04:16 PM >

_____________________________

Frosted Flake
simul justus et peccator
Einen Liebhaber, und halten Sie die Schraube

"... evil (and hilarious) !!" Hlen5

(in reply to Darkfeather)
Profile   Post #: 150
RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/14/2013 5:10:33 PM   
Darkfeather


Posts: 1142
Joined: 3/13/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake


Ok, how about this, nice simple english? I gave my opinion as to why he should not have been charged for conspiracy, right? What I am asking for is opinions on why no one feels he deserves the death penalty *sigh*. Does that make my question clearer for everyone?


I stand corrected.

I don't agree with Darkfeather.

Interesting that the law disagrees with him still, though his position APPEARS to have changed.

If only I read that before I posted.

I suppose I could edit.

But things might change again. This way, I've both wickets covered.

edit : Double quote.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkfeather
So obviously I am in the minority here in, you know, wanting commission. So lets go with it then, call Gilberto what he is, the evil murderin, flesh eating basterd that he is. Then why not cut out the middle man? Why not do like they did in the old west, and drag him out of the jail and lynch him? Public opinion is that he is guilty, certainly everyone here feels he is. So why isn't everyone screaming for the head of the "Cannibal Cop". According to popular belief, he what, was minutes away from stalking and eating a whole list of innocent young women. Hell all of the tri-state area was not safe, and he even slept with a lobster bib at night. Why would anyone believing a person this evil, settle for conspiracy, and a MAX of life in prison? Me, if someone commits a capital crime, they deserve death. No coddling in prison for life, no mental hospital (and if you believe he did this, he definitely was not insane). No, if he is the monster portrayed, then why is no one screaming for lethal injection, gas chamber, firing squad, hell even rusty nail?



Uhm, I was referencing the above actually. And this re-quote is for everyone else as well, because it is obvious that it was missed. And I will say it over and over again everyone since has not even come close to answering my question. Being snarky and facetious, sure. But most discussion degenerate into that eventually, especially when one has to defend against many. But hey, surprise me, at least one person try to give an opinion on the above instead of trying yet again to argue with me?

(in reply to FrostedFlake)
Profile   Post #: 151
RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/14/2013 5:20:33 PM   
FrostedFlake


Posts: 3084
Joined: 3/4/2009
From: Centralia, Washington
Status: offline 		So, what I hear you saying is, this argument is for sport?

_____________________________

Frosted Flake
simul justus et peccator
Einen Liebhaber, und halten Sie die Schraube

"... evil (and hilarious) !!" Hlen5

(in reply to Darkfeather)
Profile   Post #: 152
RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/14/2013 5:31:55 PM   
KrazyJester


Posts: 34
Joined: 7/25/2011
Status: offline 		Paragraph 5 states that it is only a document that is to affirm probable cause to his arrest and does not contain all the evidence in which the jury could have came to the conclusion " beyond a reasonable doubt".

(in reply to FrostedFlake)
Profile   Post #: 153
RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/14/2013 5:32:17 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		I honestly believe that I have. I'm just not doing it in such a way as to be baited on the belief you seem to have that he didn't really *do* anything.

Personal opinion alone. My stance on this is generally 'a life for a life' kind of thing. If, by an intentional criminal act you (general you) end the life of another human being, you forfeit yours. I tend to throw habitual child molesters in that category as well because the devastation caused isn't worth the criminal continuing to breathe in and out and remain on this planet.

A quite note to FF. Thank you for the additional links. The accused co-conspirator looks like a kid. I'm calling it now that this guy is just a computer geek type and is going to use the defense of "I didn't think it was real".



_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to Darkfeather)
Profile   Post #: 154
RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/14/2013 5:36:50 PM   
MalcolmNathaniel


Posts: 1394
Joined: 9/20/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkfeather

Ok, how about this, nice simple english? I gave my opinion as to why he should not have been charged for conspiracy, right? What I am asking for is opinions on why no one feels he deserves the death penalty *sigh*. Does that make my question clearer for everyone?



This is a logical fallacy called "Moving the goal posts."

(in reply to Darkfeather)
Profile   Post #: 155
RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/14/2013 5:43:29 PM   
sexyred1


Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KrazyJester

So in further English what your trying to get people to say is " because he didn't commit the actual crime of kidnapping murder,ect.... " and then you say "ah ha" which is still invalid to trying to prove your point. He deserves, in my opinion, life with possibility of parole.


I see this thread is still going strong.

You continue to make sense and I applaud you for trying to make this guy understand, but he never will.

So in essence, all that is happening is:



I am sick of dealing with his deluded ideas. He also never had the balls to respond my question to him about if it was someone his HIS family who the police offer planned to kidnap, rape, kill and eat, would he be so gung ho about waiting for the psycho to commit an act before being incarcerated.

(in reply to KrazyJester)
Profile   Post #: 156
RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/14/2013 6:06:48 PM   
Darkfeather


Posts: 1142
Joined: 3/13/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1


quote:

ORIGINAL: KrazyJester

So in further English what your trying to get people to say is " because he didn't commit the actual crime of kidnapping murder,ect.... " and then you say "ah ha" which is still invalid to trying to prove your point. He deserves, in my opinion, life with possibility of parole.


I see this thread is still going strong.

You continue to make sense and I applaud you for trying to make this guy understand, but he never will.

So in essence, all that is happening is:



I am sick of dealing with his deluded ideas. He also never had the balls to respond my question to him about if it was someone his HIS family who the police offer planned to kidnap, rape, kill and eat, would he be so gung ho about waiting for the psycho to commit an act before being incarcerated.


Actually I did respond to your question if you read my posts, mainly because KrazyJester then accused me of criminal activity because of it. I will say it again, I would care less who it was, my sister, my mother, my baby. Hell, I have had people threaten me. But talking about it does not equate to doing something. And once again, I get insulted, argued with, but no one answers

(in reply to sexyred1)
Profile   Post #: 157
RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/14/2013 6:08:58 PM   
Darkfeather


Posts: 1142
Joined: 3/13/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I honestly believe that I have. I'm just not doing it in such a way as to be baited on the belief you seem to have that he didn't really *do* anything.

Personal opinion alone. My stance on this is generally 'a life for a life' kind of thing. If, by an intentional criminal act you (general you) end the life of another human being, you forfeit yours. I tend to throw habitual child molesters in that category as well because the devastation caused isn't worth the criminal continuing to breathe in and out and remain on this planet.

A quite note to FF. Thank you for the additional links. The accused co-conspirator looks like a kid. I'm calling it now that this guy is just a computer geek type and is going to use the defense of "I didn't think it was real".




So you are completely fine with this guy possibly getting out in 2-4 years (though I believe he will face the minimum of 4-7)?

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 158
RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/14/2013 6:25:11 PM   
MalcolmNathaniel


Posts: 1394
Joined: 9/20/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkfeather

So you are completely fine with this guy possibly getting out in 2-4 years (though I believe he will face the minimum of 4-7)?



And that's called "The Straw Man Fallacy."

(in reply to Darkfeather)
Profile   Post #: 159
RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/14/2013 6:47:08 PM   
KrazyJester


Posts: 34
Joined: 7/25/2011
Status: offline 		Well thanks sexyred, and here I thought no one was reading my posts, cause obviously somewhere I accused someone of criminal actvity. I am trying to get the point across cause evidently someone close to him could be killed if he doesn't get it. Even if he cares or not.
Darkfeather, where is this accusation might I ask? And You are getting answers! Your just blocking them out because its not what YOU want to hear.

< Message edited by KrazyJester -- 3/14/2013 6:49:01 PM >

(in reply to MalcolmNathaniel)
Profile   Post #: 160
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