At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy become criminal?

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[Poll]

At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy become criminal?

When you merely think about the fantasy?

16% (11)

When you do any act in favor of the fantasy?

33% (23)

When you actually perform the fantasy?

50% (34)

Total Votes : 68

(last vote on : 4/6/2013 3:17:30 PM)
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At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy become... - 3/12/2013 11:37:03 AM

Cilicia

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Joined: 1/23/2013
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http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/13/nyregion/gilberto-valle-is-found-guilty-in-cannibal-case.html

The guy was convicted even though he never performed the fantasy, yet, he "acted upon" them, meaning he looked up potential victims.

I'm curious:
At what point does fantasy become criminal?

Post #: 1

RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 11:40:16 AM

mnottertail

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When somebody puts an eye out.

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Post #: 2

RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 12:18:31 PM

Pyramus

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I had not been aware of this, but apparently the wife saw his web chats and fled to police:
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local/new_york&id=9016510

I'm curious what web site it was?

All it says is that "Sergey Merenkov" was the owner.

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 3

RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 12:22:17 PM

muhly22222

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You got the lawyer's answer from me (when you do some act in furtherance of the thought).

Although it should be clarified: he was convicted under conspiracy law, which requires him to have planned with at least one other person to commit a crime, and then to have take some overt act, either legal or illegal, in furtherance of that conspiracy.

If he hadn't discussed the plans online, he wouldn't have been guilty. Well, there may have been a minor conviction for improperly accessing public records, but that's not the same thing at all. There simply wouldn't have been a conspiracy if nobody else knew about what he was thinking about doing.

(in reply to Cilicia)

Post #: 4

RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 12:26:47 PM

pompeii

Posts: 934
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From: Silicon Valley, San Jose, California
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quote:

ORIGINAL: muhly22222
There simply wouldn't have been a conspiracy if nobody else knew about what he was thinking about doing.

This is interesting. I don't doubt what you said, but it begs the question:
What if he kept his illicit thoughts to himself, yet, he 'furthered'?

(in reply to muhly22222)

Post #: 5

RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 12:29:13 PM

mnottertail

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So long as it did not leave the environs of his own wetware, and no action was taken, from a legal standpoint, he is just pounding his pud in private, which is ensconsed as foundational law in this country under the persuit of happiness clause........

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Post #: 6

RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 12:43:43 PM

Darkfeather

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Gilberto was convicted by fear. Fear of what he was thinking and fear of what he "might" have done. If he had acted those fantasies out to their conclusions, yes he would have been guilty. But the truth is he never did. The evidence presented against him at trial so inflamed the jury against him (websites visited, images viewed, etc), that they saw the monster he could have been not the simple kinky freak he was.

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 7

RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 1:23:00 PM

Dyfrynt

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Joined: 4/19/2011
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This paragraph is the clincher to my understanding of the law:

There was no evidence that any of the women whom the officer, Gilberto Valle, was accused of plotting to kill were harmed. But prosecutors argued that the officer took actual steps to further his plot, like conducting surveillance of potential victims and researching them in a law enforcement database.

He did go beyond mere mental fantasizing when he starting conducting live surveillance of potential victims. He did break the law by illegally using law enforcement databases for his personal agendas. It is a more serious offense because he is a police officer.

I'm almost always a big proponent of words being words and actions being actions. This is one of those cases where the "almost" comes into play. Obviously he never did any of the crimes he was fantasizing about. And if it had been nothing more than internet chat I would have a hard time convicting him no matter how disgusting I found him.

But when he went beyond the internet into actions in the real world, he forfeited his right to innocence.

(in reply to Darkfeather)

Post #: 8

RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 1:24:06 PM

Charles6682

Posts: 1820
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From: Saint Pete,FL
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The fact that this guy was a cop,I'm sure played a role into his conviction.If true,he abused his power and was accessing personal information on the police database.It sounds like his intent was to move beyond fantasy and into reality.

On a personal level,there are some disturbing fantasies out there.There are sexual criminals who make their fantasy a reality eventually with intent.The exchange of illegal content should not be encouraged nor endorsed in any fashion.Things like minors,animals and laws around those areas ban this for good reason.

I do agree life in prison may be a bit extreme for this guy,since he never actually hurt anyone.However,he should be punished to a degree to show that this kind of behavior is not acceptable in any civilized society.

< Message edited by Charles6682 -- 3/12/2013 1:25:26 PM >

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(in reply to Darkfeather)

Post #: 9

RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 1:29:08 PM

ARIES83

Posts: 3648
Status: offline

I think the fact he was a police officer ment that
his actions, however insignificant, required them
to be looked at with more seriousness, due to
his training, his access to personal information,
and the position of authority he held which would
make kidnaping someone easy... He could have
just told the abductee they were being arrested...

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(in reply to Darkfeather)

Post #: 10

RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 1:40:41 PM

Darkfeather

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You all do know that actions, no matter how far into the real world, as long as they do not harm a person or infringe on their personal rights, are not illegal. The fact that he was an "officer of the law, or used his position to gain information, or engaged in surveillance, etc" while all questionable at best are still no basis to convict for life imprisonment. These acts, while unusual, are by no means criminal. Suspicious, yes. Should he have been kept under surveillance himself, sure. Should they have waited until he did something more criminal, absolutely. Fact is, they convicted this man for the idea of being a deviant, and being caught at it

(in reply to ARIES83)

Post #: 11

RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 1:59:48 PM

mnottertail

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researching the database for personal reasons, not associated with the job, is enough to get him convicted and fired, thats illegal, as is stalking and probably abusing his office (dont know for sure on that one, havent read their law, but bets are........)

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to Darkfeather)

Post #: 12

RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 2:03:41 PM

leonine

Posts: 409
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkfeather

You all do know that actions, no matter how far into the real world, as long as they do not harm a person or infringe on their personal rights, are not illegal.

Tell that to all the people who have been sent to jail for "planning terrorist acts." Not doing anything, not making bombs, just making plans.

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Gonna pack in my hand, pick up on a piece of land and build myself a cabin in the woods.
It's there I'm gonna stay, until there comes a day when this old world starts a-changing for the good.
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(in reply to Darkfeather)

Post #: 13

RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 2:15:03 PM

Charles6682

Posts: 1820
Joined: 10/1/2007
From: Saint Pete,FL
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Good point Leonine

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Post #: 14

RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 2:19:22 PM

Darkfeather

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And my point is, in most other cases officers who used databases for personal uses do not get convicted for LIFE... Hell they don't even get fired. People who just, just mind you, stalk (though this activity in Gilberto's case is highly questionable) would warrant only further surveillance not LIFE... Honestly, do you think Gilberto is the only officer who has checked someone's name for priors before a first date, or typed in their license plate to find out their address? No, but it is just something they get to tack onto his deviant behavior to vilify it. As for all these people planning terrorist acts? you can blame the Patriot Act for this abomination. Fear is the currency of the day in the new America

(in reply to leonine)

Post #: 15

RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 2:30:49 PM

KrazyJester

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Joined: 7/25/2011
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http://law.justia.com/codes/kentucky/2006/017-00/175.html

Section 7. It is a class A misdemeanor to use the federal database for personal use. The fact that there is evidence of him wanting to act of fantasies and the conspiracy to commit makes his firing go further into conviction.

(in reply to leonine)

Post #: 16

RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 2:47:18 PM

Darkfeather

Posts: 1142
Joined: 3/13/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KrazyJester

http://law.justia.com/codes/kentucky/2006/017-00/175.html

Section 7. It is a class A misdemeanor to use the federal database for personal use. The fact that there is evidence of him wanting to act of fantasies and the conspiracy to commit makes his firing go further into conviction.

Everyone seems to be missing the point here... Gilberto got Life imprisonment. Unless I missed something here, class A misdemeanor conviction does not, I repeat not, carry that severe a penalty. Hell, no court in this country would waste court resources to try a police officer on such a trivial matter on its own, which is why it was tacked on to the other offenses. If anyone here can find a simple reason why he warranted LIFE, What he actually did to deserve that level of punishment, then speak it now. Otherwise all he was actually convicted of was the simple fear of what he "could" have done

(in reply to KrazyJester)

Post #: 17

RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 2:49:25 PM

HisPet21

Posts: 395
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I agree with DarkFeather, in that a life sentence is probably going too far, since the criminal in this case didn't actually attack any of his potential victims. However, I wouldn't mind seeing the man behind bars for several years. It is perfectly fine to fantasize about violent crimes and even to talk about your fantasies with others. It is not okay, on the other hand, to pick out real life victims, discuss the kidnap scenario of an actual person with strangers on the internet (even if you are staying in the realm of fantasy, who is to say that the chat buddies you are sharing information with intend on doing the same), illegally tap into law enforcement databases to gather information on your victims, and then stalk/survey your victims.

Maybe this guy just took a fantasy too far. Maybe he was stopped before he could act. We won't ever really know, but clearly this person did more than fantasize about an act, he planned the kidnap of specific people and then began the process of actualizing that plan. In doing so, he endangered his potential "victims" and broke several laws. The guy needs to be punished.

I agree whole-heartedly with Dyfrynt here...

quote:

I'm almost always a big proponent of words being words and actions being actions. This is one of those cases where the "almost" comes into play. Obviously he never did any of the crimes he was fantasizing about. And if it had been nothing more than internet chat I would have a hard time convicting him no matter how disgusting I found him.

But when he went beyond the internet into actions in the real world, he forfeited his right to innocence.

(in reply to KrazyJester)

Post #: 18

RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 2:50:15 PM

Dyfrynt

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Joined: 4/19/2011
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I agree that life in prison is an absurdly over the top punishment. What ever happened to the punishment fitting the crime????

Darkfeather said "Should they have waited until he did something more criminal, absolutely. Fact is, they convicted this man for the idea of being a deviant, and being caught at it."

Dark, while in theory I agree with you. The reality is that with what this guy was fantasizing about doing, you would rather some woman would have to suffer through all that and die? That's the real sticking point to the criminal justice system, isn't it.

Person 1 swears to kill person 2. Person 2 goes to the police and tell them what person 1 said they would do. The police shrug and say our hands are tied until person 1 actually does something. Person 1 follows through with their threat and kills person 2. Now legal action can be taken. It's a little late by then though.

I don't have the answer to this conundrum. I have seen too many instances of the above actually happening. There must be another solution that protects the rights of the potential victim as much as they do the potential perpetrator.

But there is no denying that what actions this guy did take can in no way justify life in prison.

(in reply to KrazyJester)

Post #: 19

RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 2:57:34 PM

KrazyJester

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"Officer Valle, 28, could be sentenced to life in prison for one count of kidnapping conspiracy."

"Could be" does not mean he has been. And from my understanding the max sentence for conspiracy to commit murder ,in most states, is life in prison. Plus conspiracy to kidnap.....

(in reply to HisPet21)

Post #: 20

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