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RE: 10th Anniversary of the Iraq War - 3/17/2013 2:12:55 PM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
You seem pretty sure you`re smarter than the average joe and now, after the fact,who knows if you`re just one more full of shit know-it-all?

Man, if only I were sure of anything nowadays beyond "the US government is not trustworthy" I'd be really happy.

Bashing the victims of a fraud,especially the folks who lost someone in the 9/11 attacks or subsequent Iraq tragedy,though it may inflate your ego,is NOT classy.
Yeah, no worries. I can sacrifice some class if WE CAN JUST STOP IT FROM HAPPENING AGAIN.

While you're being all classy, I'm trying to stop the murder of another 200,000 people. I'm content with the side I'm on.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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RE: 10th Anniversary of the Iraq War - 3/17/2013 2:14:37 PM   
TheHeretic


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Nope. No mis-read on that one at all, Vince. If you don't hear it, when it still takes place these days, my first guess would be the it's the same block that brought up the earlier communication hurdle.

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: 10th Anniversary of the Iraq War - 3/17/2013 2:15:44 PM   
Owner59


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He ended your created from scratch tragedy and gets the credit for that.....so we`re pretty sure he`s doing just fine,conscience-wise.....

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President Obama

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RE: 10th Anniversary of the Iraq War - 3/17/2013 2:17:13 PM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
You seem pretty sure you`re smarter than the average joe and now, after the fact,who knows if you`re just one more full of shit know-it-all?

Man, if only I were sure of anything nowadays beyond "the US government is not trustworthy" I'd be really happy.

Bashing the victims of a fraud,especially the folks who lost someone in the 9/11 attacks or subsequent Iraq tragedy,though it may inflate your ego,is NOT classy.
Yeah, no worries. I can sacrifice some class if WE CAN JUST STOP IT FROM HAPPENING AGAIN.

While you're being all classy, I'm trying to stop the murder of another 200,000 people. I'm content with the side I'm on.

You`re projecting....

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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RE: 10th Anniversary of the Iraq War - 3/17/2013 2:38:10 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Nope. No mis-read on that one at all, Vince. If you don't hear it, when it still takes place these days, my first guess would be the it's the same block that brought up the earlier communication hurdle.

All I hear is the sound of sadness and tragedy.

Gnite, Rich.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
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RE: 10th Anniversary of the Iraq War - 3/17/2013 2:45:29 PM   
TheHeretic


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Enjoy your evening, Vince.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: 10th Anniversary of the Iraq War - 3/18/2013 6:12:34 PM   
Politesub53


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The WMD lies nailed yet again. Shame on Bush and Blair.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21786506

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RE: 10th Anniversary of the Iraq War - 3/18/2013 8:31:34 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ElChupa

howz that peace prize winner doing with all this? wadda guy!

What would you like him to do Chups? Send troops back into Iraq?

You yearning for the shock and awe? Miss the body bags, do you?

You got a plan or only a vague criticism?

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RE: 10th Anniversary of the Iraq War - 3/18/2013 9:17:50 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


Miss the body bags, do you?




Do you hear it, Vince?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: 10th Anniversary of the Iraq War - 3/18/2013 9:23:41 PM   
njlauren


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There is plenty of guilt to go around, though the lions share goes to Bush and Cheney, who deliberately lied (sorry, the WMD's were bullshit and they knew it..the whole WMD came from one guy, Hallabi, who was looking to take over as dicatator of Iraq once Hussein was out of office)...they tried spreading the myth that Hussein had a piece of 9/11, and Fox News kept spreading that long after it had been discredited (for several years after 9/11/ people who watch Fox News for their primary news source by like 80%-20% believed Hussein had a hand in 9/11). They were told by other intelligence services, including the Mossad and The german security services that they didn't have them, that Hallabi was lying, but they pressed forward (a tangled mess of Cheney and Rove looking for a war to boost GOP popularity and create a permanent GOP majority, the Neo cons like Perle who saw the plan to overthrow Hussein as protecting Israel (they tried selling a similar plan to Israel and the Israelis looked at them like they were on drugs)....and it was plain arrogance, Bush was going to show he was a tough guy and avenge his father. Not to mention a military that didn't quite think of the consequences....ironically, Cheney agreed in 93 to stop before overthrowing Hussein for the very reason that killed us 10 years later, what would come into the power gap after Hussein was gone.

Then the story miraculously changed, Bush sold it as being a war to 'stop the threat of Iraq', then suddenly, the war mysteriously became 'Iraqi Freedom'......

And yes, they used one of the most effective PR tactics there is, lovely slogans like "Support our Troops" or "Support America", where suddenly it was everyone's duty to get behind the war effort, the 'you are either for us or against us', and it was quite effective, no one wanted to appear unpatriotic ("Patriotism=last refuge of scoundrels"). We had all the nice evangelical churches showing movies of jet fighters flying overhead, with patriotic music and rows of gravestones in military cemeteries, we had a full court press in Fox News and the rest, calling anyone traitor who dared to speak against it. You had people who should have known better, like Schumer in NY, who were caught up in the idea that this was protecting Israel, the Jewish community, normally a voice against stupidity, rallied around that concept with some few exceptions.

Then we have the real guilty parties, frontline did a great piece on this one. The mass media, the tv news, the newspapers, all completely fucked up, and I mean royally, they were so afraid of the GOP juggernaut, they were so afraid of being tarred as 'the liberal media' by the right wing hacks, that they were timid. Reports that the WMD's were exaggerated, the yellow cake mess, the Hussein=9/11 lie, all of the dissenting voices were on page 39 or something. The only paper who did an effective job was the St. Louis Post dispatch, they talked to intelligence people, the ones who do this for a living, and in the run up, they basically said "WTF? I don't see anything, there is simply no indication Iraq is a threat". These officers had sent memos and analysis, and they told the reporters they were getting nothing back....but that was one paper, not the NY TImes, not the Post, none of them did jack shit (not surprising, given the corporations that own much media...kind of reminds me that the NY Times, owned by a Jewish family, backpedaled its coverage of the Nazi's and what they were doing, so not to appear 'too Jewish', here it was 'not patriotic'.

I can say I was against it with a clear heart, I was, it smelled then and it still smells. I belonged to a pretty liberal church at the time, and there was a guy who was a member, this guy wasn't so liberal per se, he was ex military intelligence, he had been active duty during the prior gulf war, and we were talking, and he said he didn't have any specific information, since he obviously wasn't active duty, but he had a large network of friends, some of whom were active, some retired, and even looking at what was being reported, they didn't see the pattern, they didn't see the kind of things they would expect to see, the chatter in papers, none of it.....and he said that some of the guys on duty, while not saying why, said they didn't see anything in the stuff they looked at that would indicate Iraq had what they claimed it did (pretty much what the reported for the Post-Dispatch were hearing). ...and he was firmly against it, he said it smelled.......that alone impressed me, I don't discount information from someone whose career this was.

Course, it didn't help that Cheney made a fortune out of the war, he may have had his halliburton stock in a blind trust, but he knew the military was going to rely on cotractors, and he spiffed out personally.

Not to mention, that while spending what will prob end up about 3 trillion dollars when it is all said and done, the GOP gave the top 1% massive tax cuts in the middle of an expensive war (that Bush hid by putting it in as 'extraordinary requests').....

Al Qaeda couldn't have done a better job in fouling up the US then Bush and Cheney did, by pulling off 9/11 they got dumb and dumber to spend the US into oblivion, nice going...not to mention that the sideshow in Iraq also pulled troops from Afghanistan and allowed Bin Laden to get away.....

Blaming Obama is a but ridiculous, by the time he took office in January, 2009, we already had been in there almost 6 years, and you don't get out of a mess like that by packing up and going, kind of like tanker trucks spilling a cargo of toxic chemicals in the middle of main street, then just driving away.

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RE: 10th Anniversary of the Iraq War - 3/18/2013 9:36:19 PM   
JeffBC


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nice writeup njlauren.

In point of fact, Bush and Cheney were told there were no WMD not simply from the entire rest of the world but also from their own intelligence service. They simply created a custom-made panel of experts who would agree that there were WMD.

I don't blame Obama but I sure as hell hold the representatives and senators responsible for their decision and astonishing numbers of democrats voted in favor.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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RE: 10th Anniversary of the Iraq War - 3/18/2013 9:38:25 PM   
tweakabelle


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It appears that the lesson Obama has taken from all of this is: "It's OK to do whatever you want to other countries as long as there are no US fatalities". Thus, the US is now fighting its wars by remote control and using drones to spread havoc, kill civilians wholesale and do all the dirty work at long distance. Scant comfort to the people of Pakistan, Africa and other places where drones are busy killing as I type .....

The lesson we need to take from the Iraq fiasco is that Western military interventions in non-Western countries must cease and cease forever.

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RE: 10th Anniversary of the Iraq War - 3/18/2013 10:03:25 PM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
The lesson we need to take from the Iraq fiasco is that Western military interventions in non-Western countries must cease and cease forever.

I wouldn't quite go that far -- close but not quite that absolute. But hey, I forgot. Obama is the good guy, right?

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to tweakabelle)
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RE: 10th Anniversary of the Iraq War - 3/18/2013 10:08:15 PM   
Owner59


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Ralph nader was busy so we went with Barack....

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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RE: 10th Anniversary of the Iraq War - 3/18/2013 10:11:27 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
The lesson we need to take from the Iraq fiasco is that Western military interventions in non-Western countries must cease and cease forever.

I wouldn't quite go that far -- close but not quite that absolute. But hey, I forgot. Obama is the good guy, right?

I wouldn't quite go that far -- close but not quite that absolute. I am prepared to say that he was marginally better than the alternatives - Romney or McCain. Had either of those clowns been elected, the world would be in a far worse situation than our current one.

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RE: 10th Anniversary of the Iraq War - 3/18/2013 10:17:28 PM   
Owner59


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Brad Pitt might`ve been better......but again....he was busy.....



_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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Profile   Post #: 76
RE: 10th Anniversary of the Iraq War - 3/19/2013 5:17:41 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

It appears that the lesson Obama has taken from all of this is: "It's OK to do whatever you want to other countries as long as there are no US fatalities". Thus, the US is now fighting its wars by remote control and using drones to spread havoc, kill civilians wholesale and do all the dirty work at long distance. Scant comfort to the people of Pakistan, Africa and other places where drones are busy killing as I type .....

The lesson we need to take from the Iraq fiasco is that Western military interventions in non-Western countries must cease and cease forever.

You are many years late, Tweak. Clinton bombed Belgrade and then lobbed missiles into AlQueda training camps in Afghanistan. Nixon threw bombs into Cambodia and North Vietnam. Hitler threw bombs into London and Guernica.
Sorry if I have the sequence ass backwards but I hope you get the idea. I can't even count the times sea faring nations fired onto beaches and shore towns. Laying seige from afar is not an Obama invention. Nor should it be condonned.

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RE: 10th Anniversary of the Iraq War - 3/19/2013 6:20:02 AM   
tweakabelle


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Meanwhile, back in 'pacified' Iraq, at least 34 civilians died today, and dozens were injured as Al Quada/Sunni extremists set off a series of car bombs and explosions in Baghdad to mark the 10th anniversary of the US invasion
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/mar/19/iraq-rocked-wave-explosions

This followed another day of carnage last week in which 22 Iraqis died and dozens more were injured in another series of car bombs.

All of these terrorist horrors are direct consequences of the invasion. Similar effects can be anticipated for many years into the future. The surest, most efficient generator of terrorism is foreign military intervention and occupation.

Western military interventions in non-Western countries must cease and cease immediately and permanently.


< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 3/19/2013 6:28:33 AM >


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RE: 10th Anniversary of the Iraq War - 3/19/2013 7:47:53 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

All of these terrorist horrors are direct consequences of the invasion. Similar effects can be anticipated for many years into the future. The surest, most efficient generator of terrorism is foreign military intervention and occupation.

The horror in Iraq began when Saddam, with western assistance, attacked Iran in 1980. It continued when US troops and friends used "spent uranium tipped" missiles in '92 leading to a high incidence of cancer among Iraqi children. Throughout the 90s UN sanctions and no-fly zones wrecked the economy and crippled the Iraqi medical system. Topped off by the outrage of 2003. Death and destruction everyday since.

I am well aware and just as pissed as you. Some in this thread are so busy pointing fingers they miss the history of Iraqi agony.

quote:

Western military interventions in non-Western countries must cease and cease immediately and permanently
.
Agreed. I think Obama is making an effort to disengage in the ME. Witness his reluctance to involve us in Syria. Hopefully he will not be sucked into Bibi's plan for Iran. His back peddling there may be the sore point between Obama and Netenyahu. Imo Obama is trying to withdraw our involvement but has been somewhat hindered by the Congressional war hawks, evidenced by his difficulty in getting Chuck Hegal's nomination approved. I hope I am right in believing he is trying to withdraw.

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RE: 10th Anniversary of the Iraq War - 3/19/2013 8:19:34 AM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
I am prepared to say that he was marginally better than the alternatives - Romney or McCain. Had either of those clowns been elected, the world would be in a far worse situation than our current one.

Well sure. But saying he's marginally better than Romney says what exactly? He is STILL building a totalitarian police state as quickly as he can. So I'm not really getting all that excited about his improvements over Romney. And why vote for Romney anyway? It's not like that is mandated. For reference, here is an excerpt from Jill Stein's "State of the Union" address:

It’s an honor to be here to talk about the real state of our nation. President Obama just finished his speech before Congress. As usual, it was full of inspired, high flying rhetoric, and rosy promises for the future. But it’s important to separate the reality from the stage show. We need a real discussion of where we are, so we can set our priorities right and secure the future for our imperiled families, communities, country and planet.

So I will say what you likely already know – that the state of the union is troubled and in critical ways getting worse. But it is eminently fixable.

We are facing unprecedented crisis - an economy in relentless decline for the vast majority and a climate accelerating towards catastrophe. In addition we face expanding endless wars, and an assault on our civil liberties.


In other words, there was a contender who was well aligned with significant features of both Occupy and the Tea Party.


_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 80
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