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Obama to announce plans to fund alternative fuel research - 3/17/2013 10:14:31 AM   
TheHeretic


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Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		The subject of this thread IS NOT whether research into alternative fuels is a good idea. Finding sustainable ways to power transportation is a fantastic idea. The question here is whether funding such research is a legitimate use of public funds, especially at a time when we are running on the credit cards to the tune of a trillion bucks a year.

My answer is no. This is a job for Free Enterprise Man (or Girl, if you saw the story about the teenager who picked up a nice science contest prize recently, for her work in biofuel from algae).

Sometimes government is the only way to get something done. Not this time. In this case, I can't think of a worse way, or a worse use of the couple billion in income they are talking about.

And just so nobody gets lost in the weeds of where the money comes from, these lease fees get passed right along to the American family by the oil companies that then pay them to the government.

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-obama-alternative-fuel-research-20130315,0,4226509.story

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RE: Obama to announce plans to fund alternative fuel re... - 3/17/2013 10:36:50 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		The cons were screamng memes about how Obama MADE GM produce small cars and alt fuel cars......the heavy hand of gubment-yada-yada

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/412158/april-09-2012/bob-lutz

Bob Lutz however said they wern`t pressured....to take tax-payer money,make new smaller cars,the Volt(says it was a success,in spite of the anti-government frauds like rich).

Imagine if we have losers telling us that we had to wait for "the market" to cure deadly disease?




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RE: Obama to announce plans to fund alternative fuel re... - 3/17/2013 11:11:06 AM   
JeffBC


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From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
The subject of this thread IS NOT whether research into alternative fuels is a good idea. Finding sustainable ways to power transportation is a fantastic idea.

I agree with your position. Fantastic end goal. The strategy for getting their is just plain ridiculous or evil depending on how cynical you want to be.

I had a longer answer to this but it's mostly pointless. All I can do is shake my head at the fact that some folks wonder why I think Obama is a corporate shill. If we wanted alternate energy solutions for transportation it would be trivially easy to make them happen. There are really only two problems ... one of them is simply a planning issue. The other is actually a technology issue (energy storage) but it's not like we don't have some credible answers already on the table for that one.

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RE: Obama to announce plans to fund alternative fuel re... - 3/17/2013 12:09:27 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline 		We fund the oil companies don't we?

Maybe alternative fuels will enable us to become independent of OPEC and they can go eat dirt and rocks.
Mideast petrodollars fund terrorism.

Homegrown energy will do a hundred times more for national security than that so-called "Department of Homeland Security" bazillion dollar black hole bondoggle.

< Message edited by Hillwilliam -- 3/17/2013 12:12:18 PM >

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RE: Obama to announce plans to fund alternative fuel re... - 3/17/2013 12:25:06 PM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
We fund the oil companies don't we?

Well yeah. But I'd prefer to stop buying yachts for them too. Honestly I wish Obama would be me a yacht or two but so far no luck. Maybe I'll start a petition on whitehouse.gov.

Maybe alternative fuels will enable us to become independent of OPEC and they can go eat dirt and rocks. Mideast petrodollars fund terrorism.
Sure they would. And if we wanted them we'd have them today.

Homegrown energy will do a hundred times more for national security than that so-called "Department of Homeland Security" bazillion dollar black hole boondoggle.
Out of every organization in the entire world including all the most extremist muslim yada yada groups, the DHS scares me the most by far. So yeah, I'd be all for pulling the plug on that. I don't want to simply spend that money elsewhere though. I either want to pump it into the economy in a way which will ACTUALLY create jobs (as opposed to trickle down myths) or I want to pay down the debt. The admitted budget of the DHS was 60 billion. I don't even want to know what the actual budget was.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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RE: Obama to announce plans to fund alternative fuel re... - 3/17/2013 12:31:41 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		What I'm getting from your post, Hill, is a non-answer sort of answer, suggesting the President's proposal is just fine by you. Let me know if I'm wrong in that.

Would you care to say why we should take public money, so the government can add an additional layer of their own bureaucracy to something both individuals and business have all the best incentives to do for themselves?

Nobody (unless that one dude who follows me around went there) is suggesting that getting off oil isn't the goal.



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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: Obama to announce plans to fund alternative fuel re... - 3/17/2013 12:46:58 PM   
Owner59


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From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

We fund the oil companies don't we?

Maybe alternative fuels will enable us to become independent of OPEC and they can go eat dirt and rocks.
Mideast petrodollars fund terrorism.

Homegrown energy will do a hundred times more for national security than that so-called "Department of Homeland Security" bazillion dollar black hole bondoggle.




The anti-governmant-types like rich don`t mind seeing our pretro-dollars go to funding terrorism and suggest we wait for the "market" to correct that......


Boy, did we ever miss a bullet when we sent Mittens packing.....

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"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

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RE: Obama to announce plans to fund alternative fuel re... - 3/17/2013 12:49:35 PM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		Private companies could have funded this all along. Instead, status quo rules because it makes money.

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RE: Obama to announce plans to fund alternative fuel re... - 3/17/2013 12:57:58 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		DHS, and just how much power that agency has is a good topic, and I'd likely be happy to join such a discussion, but the subject isn't where the money goes, or attempts to make other posters the subject.

Is alternate fuel research something that needs the government sticking itself into the equation?



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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: Obama to announce plans to fund alternative fuel re... - 3/17/2013 1:06:54 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Is alternate fuel research something that needs the government sticking itself into the equation?

Given that the privately funded, free enterprise researchers are producing fuck all at present, yes it is something that's going to need a big government intervention the way things are going.

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RE: Obama to announce plans to fund alternative fuel re... - 3/17/2013 1:10:30 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

Is alternate fuel research something that needs the government sticking itself into the equation?


Since no one else is?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Obama to announce plans to fund alternative fuel re... - 3/17/2013 1:10:51 PM   
Kirata


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From: USA
Status: offline
~ FR ~

According to the article:

The role of the trust, which will be in the president's budget proposal, would be to support cutting-edge research into fuels that would eventually replace gasoline,

Given the current state of art with electric vehicles, e.g. the cars already being built by Tesla and the upcoming Audi and Mercedes designs, I can't think of anything more wasted than efforts to extend the life of internal combustion propulsion.

What we really need is a clean and safe energy source capable of providing us with abundant electricity. And ideally, one that could be scaled to power towns and small cities without requiring miles of vulnerable transmission networks.

I'd have no objection to putting public funds into that. And as a candidate for such an effort, I'd offer this from the American Physical Society forum on Physics and Society:

Liquid Fuel Nuclear Reactors

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/17/2013 1:14:44 PM >

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RE: Obama to announce plans to fund alternative fuel re... - 3/17/2013 1:10:57 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		It`s a national security issue.......of course they should invest and provide for research.....


How do you think the commuter was perfected,or how Penicillin was developed?


Imagine folks.....leaving it to private firms to beat the russians to the moon..........


Looks like republicans hoping for American un-exceptionalism....


< Message edited by Owner59 -- 3/17/2013 1:13:27 PM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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RE: Obama to announce plans to fund alternative fuel re... - 3/17/2013 1:55:27 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
Given that the privately funded, free enterprise researchers are producing fuck all at present, yes it is something that's going to need a big government intervention the way things are going.



"Producing fuck all," you say? Maybe pull away from the socialist propaganda tit, once in a while.

Personally, I'm a fan of biodeisel, and think algae will be a great source, once we come up with a reasonable way to use the leftover biomass. Honda has their hydrogen prototype, electric cars are reaching a place where they can fill the niche they are suitable for (though the batteries are a nasty business).

Kirata has exactly the right idea here. Finding the next step in the production of electricity is the sort of huge thing where we need the big hammer of government.



_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to Moonhead)
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RE: Obama to announce plans to fund alternative fuel re... - 3/17/2013 2:13:58 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

DHS, and just how much power that agency has is a good topic, and I'd likely be happy to join such a discussion, but the subject isn't where the money goes, or attempts to make other posters the subject.

Is alternate fuel research something that needs the government sticking itself into the equation?



I'd say yes. The National Science Foundation funds billions of dollars worth of research all ready.

DARPA has a 'black budget' in the billions. Sending some of those minds to alt fuels would do more to ensure national security than any number of bombs or multi million dollar fighters that starve the pilot of O2 so they crash.

The Dept of Defense (navy) is working on alternative fuels for jets because in the event of a war in the mideast, they still want to fly.

Remember what we did with NASA in less than a decade.
Energy could do the same thing.

< Message edited by Hillwilliam -- 3/17/2013 2:14:38 PM >

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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RE: Obama to announce plans to fund alternative fuel re... - 3/17/2013 2:19:12 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		But that would be "authoritarian".......says one fraud.....


_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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RE: Obama to announce plans to fund alternative fuel re... - 3/17/2013 2:28:44 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Not just the Navy, Hill. The Air Force has a way to fly the B-52s on coal-based fuel. If something they come up with in pursuit of their particular ends translates to the civilian application, well and good.

The moon is a crappy example. So is the bomb. When government is the only way to get something done, that is the way to go. This is akin to the government taking over from Orville and Wilbur, or stepping in to the video format wars that began in the eighties. Remember those enormous laserdisc platters, that were the peak of technology, once upon a time? This is the kind of thing a free-market does best.

People in corporate development divisions, and academic research facilities, as well as the guys tinkering in the basements and garages can handle this part just fine.

When it comes time for the big infrastructure, that's when government has to get involved.

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 3/17/2013 2:30:52 PM >

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: Obama to announce plans to fund alternative fuel re... - 3/17/2013 2:44:57 PM   
JeffBC


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From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Is alternate fuel research something that needs the government sticking itself into the equation?

I'm sort of curious what research needs doing? The last I heard the answer to that question was either "none" or "nearly none". So "funding research" can basically be translated to "giving a lot of cash to various corporations for no real reason to solve no real problem".

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to TheHeretic)
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RE: Obama to announce plans to fund alternative fuel re... - 3/17/2013 2:57:28 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Personally, I'm a fan of biodeisel, and think algae will be a great source, once we come up with a reasonable way to use the leftover biomass. Honda has their hydrogen prototype, electric cars are reaching a place where they can fill the niche they are suitable for (though the batteries are a nasty business).

Maybe when the Honda design reaches market, and an electric car becomes available that isn't a bad joke, this will amount to more than fuck all, but as things stand, free enterprise is failing miserably to produce a viable alternative to cars that work by burning fossil fuels.

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
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RE: Obama to announce plans to fund alternative fuel re... - 3/17/2013 3:14:56 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
Maybe when the Honda design reaches market, and an electric car becomes available that isn't a bad joke, this will amount to more than fuck all, but as things stand, free enterprise is failing miserably to produce a viable alternative to cars that work by burning fossil fuels.

*nods* The rub there isn't that there's a problem with the design. It's a planning & infrastructure problem. And it'll likely take the government to step in and force that issue. But there isn't really any research that needs to be done. We could have fuel cell cars next year.

By the way, other than the obvious issues with lithium what makes electric vehicles a bad joke in your mind?


_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to Moonhead)
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