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First Punishment - 3/17/2013 11:18:23 AM

Mishna

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Some weeks ago, I signed a contract with a sub. He and I have been friends and play partners for several years, but he and I discussed it and agreed we needed something with more structure and clearly defined rules.

This past weekend, he has been attending a lifestyle event out of town with my consent but without my presence due to my work schedule. For whatever reason, he made the decision to forget/ignore a couple of the rules he agreed to. Per our contract there is punishment involved.

This is the first time I am having to dole out punishment and I find I am dreading it. I'm disappointed at having to do it and while I know I won't back down from it and he will not attempt to get out of it, I just find myself not wanting to dish it out.

Is this a fairly normal response?

Post #: 1

RE: First Punishment - 3/17/2013 11:20:09 AM

Baroana

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I can't say if it's normal. I've never done a contract. I'm wondering why you included these terms if you don't like them.

(in reply to Mishna)

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RE: First Punishment - 3/17/2013 11:32:25 AM

Mishna

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My question is not really about the contract so much as what I'm feeling about the punishment. This is the first contract either of us has been involved with, too, so we are both learning as we go. It's included because we discussed it and both felt it should be there. I didn't think I would have to act on it so soon, or even at all, given our past interactions.

(in reply to Baroana)

Post #: 3

RE: First Punishment - 3/17/2013 11:34:27 AM

RedMagic1

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Why don't you want to do it?

Kind of an important piece to the puzzle here......

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Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to Mishna)

Post #: 4

RE: First Punishment - 3/17/2013 11:43:38 AM

Mishna

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@Redmagic, I agree and I've spent the day thinking about it, but what I have is kind of a nebulous negative emotion about it. Perhaps that is the key, though. Perhaps I am trying to avoid the negative emotions that I associate with punishment. Without going into too much personal detail, I had an abusive parent who used physical/emotional punishment to control and manipulate. But, that was quite a while ago and I've done a lot of work to move past that. It seems odd though that it would come up if I'm looking at punishing someone else, so perhaps that's not it.

(in reply to RedMagic1)

Post #: 5

RE: First Punishment - 3/17/2013 12:26:23 PM

AthenaSurrenders

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I've heard a number of people say that a punishment is a miserable experience for both dom and sub. Personally that's not how it is for us - in our relationship a punishment symbolizes that we draw a line underneath whatever went wrong and move on. It is cathartic, it helps me move on from whatever I did wrong (I tend to worry and beat myself up beyond the point that it is helpful) and it indicates that we are both still committed to our role in the dynamic.

Punishment is never something we look forward to because ultimately it means there had been a little hiccup in our domestic bliss. But once we have been through the whole 'why did it happen' and 'how do we fix it' it is a comforting ritual and on some level we both feel happy about it.

What I am saying in my long-winded way is that even though punishment is supposed to be unpleasant in some sense, if it is something that it making you unhappy, or if it is weakening your relationship instead of strengthening it, then don't do it. It seemed like a good idea when you were planning your contract, but the fact that you have a contract doesn't mean you shouldn't change and adapt based on your actual experiences. It is totally normal to have to tweak the rules or the dynamic to find whatever works for you.

If punishment already has negative connotations for you, may I ask why you thought you needed to include it in your contract?

_____________________________

Being your slave, what should I do but tend
Upon the hours and times of your desire?

(in reply to Mishna)

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RE: First Punishment - 3/17/2013 12:28:33 PM

RedMagic1

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Well, in that case, I've got nothing for you, sorry. I hope you figure it out.

If I were in your situation, I wouldn't go through with hurting someone unless I were 100% clear in my head about it. So I'd probably tell him something like, "I'm not going to punish you. I know I said I would, but I don't feel right about it, and I'm not entirely sure why. So maybe we could figure that part out together. But in the meantime, I'm disappointed in you, and a little disappointed in myself. It's your turn to talk now. Tell me what you're going to do to help make things right between us."

Take that for whatever you think it's worth.

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to Mishna)

Post #: 7

RE: First Punishment - 3/17/2013 12:30:19 PM

JeffBC

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mishna
Is this a fairly normal response?

I punished Carol exactly once in the first few months of collaring her. When it was over with we had a new rule... "How about you just fucking obey?"

That rule has served us well for years now. There's no need for punishment when there's no disobedience. Obviously, my reaction was even stronger than yours.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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Post #: 8

RE: First Punishment - 3/17/2013 12:31:14 PM

AthenaSurrenders

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

Well, in that case, I've got nothing for you, sorry. I hope you figure it out.

If I were in your situation, I wouldn't go through with hurting someone unless I were 100% clear in my head about it. So I'd probably tell him something like, "I'm not going to punish you. I know I said I would, but I don't feel right about it, and I'm not entirely sure why. So maybe we could figure that part out together. But in the meantime, I'm disappointed in you, and a little disappointed in myself. It's your turn to talk now. Tell me what you're going to do to help make things right between us."

Take that for whatever you think it's worth.

This is a really good way of putting it.

_____________________________

Being your slave, what should I do but tend
Upon the hours and times of your desire?

(in reply to RedMagic1)

Post #: 9

RE: First Punishment - 3/17/2013 12:38:18 PM

Mishna

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Athena, thanks for a comprehensive response. Those are definitely things to think about.

In answer to your question, I didn't think I would have the reaction I'm having. I work as a manager with a small crew and have to provide rules and discipline there, and do so as required with no real difficulty. Yes, I know it's not entirely the same, but as I have found myself to be ok with those things in that part of my life, I assumed my ability to discipline there would carry over just fine. Add to that I have been working on my own issues for years and figured I had done enough on that end that it was laid to rest, I didn't foresee any problem with including punishment in our dynamic if it became necessary.

(in reply to AthenaSurrenders)

Post #: 10

RE: First Punishment - 3/17/2013 12:41:30 PM

Mishna

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Redmagic, I think I'm going in that general direction.

JeffBC, yes, I can see that. That sounds like a good rule.

(in reply to Mishna)

Post #: 11

RE: First Punishment - 3/17/2013 12:51:03 PM

Chrisp7135

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Something You want, but which "costs" him.

Since this is the first infraction, I wouldn't make it too severe.

It shouldn't be sexual for him, as this will only reinforce negative behaviors.

My suggestion: paint the dining room.
Or, organize/clean the garage.
Pressure wash the house.
(Only one of the above).

Those types of tasks take real effort, and they benefit You.
And, painting a room doesn't make you horny (I know this from experience)

Chris

(in reply to Mishna)

Post #: 12

RE: First Punishment - 3/17/2013 2:34:21 PM

myotherself

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Or perhaps restrict something he enjoys?

No coffee for a week (if he's a coffee drinker), or go to bed by 9pm every night, or...well, whatever gets the point across.

All punishment does not need to be physical. Some non-physical punishments make a bigger impression.

_____________________________

There's nowt so queer as folk

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Post #: 13

RE: First Punishment - 3/17/2013 3:37:55 PM

LanceHughes

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THE classic punishment is to deprive him of THE thing he desires MOST - namely your attention / interaction.

Talk about "the punishment fits the crime"..... He's away from you and disobeys. You withdraw. Maybe three days of not speaking to him. (Three days being the time of the lifestyle event, I'll guess.)

For short-term... "I'm so disappointed in you, I don't even want to see you for the next 6 hours. Get out of my sight."

ETA: And then the "work through it" types of conversations talked about above. This may very well include re-working the contract.
=========
Of course, these posts see to have slid away from your OP about your murky feelings.

Maybe you can differentiate your punishment that you need to give him from the punishment you received by realizing what you need to do is under the category of "Tough Love" and will help you two in having a better relationship, whereas the punishments you received were simply cruel.
=========
ETA: His misbehavior might have been sub-conciously testing your boundries.

He may NEED to be punished to be reassured as to your true feelings for him.

< Message edited by LanceHughes -- 3/17/2013 3:44:40 PM >

_____________________________

"Train 'em the right way - my way." Lance Hughes
"Advice is what we ask for when we already know the answer, but wish we didn't." Erica Jong

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RE: First Punishment - 3/17/2013 3:52:55 PM

LanceHughes

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Mishna: Your profile says (and I cut-n-paste.)
"I find myself broadening my own horizons even as I work at broadening those of my partner. It brings out the mother, the sadist, and the lover in me.

I am still searching for the companion who can envelop all of these at once. I know it will be a long journey. Who will join me?"
--------------
"The mother, the sadist, and the lover." What a great phrase..... You are worried about "The first punishment." Well, "DUH." Every mother ever born has gone through the same uncertaintiy in their heart-of-hearts when the one they are mothering has dis-obeyed.

Remember "BDSM relationships are relationships FIRST."
That is all.

_____________________________

"Train 'em the right way - my way." Lance Hughes
"Advice is what we ask for when we already know the answer, but wish we didn't." Erica Jong

10 fluffy points
50 nz points

Member: VAA's posse

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Post #: 15

RE: First Punishment - 3/17/2013 4:15:25 PM

ToSirWithLove13

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I would agree with Lance,

It is quite probable that he needs you to punish him. In my experience all subs test boundries at times just to be assured that you care enough discipline them. That is usually the difference between the new dom and the experienced one. A newer dom is more likely to say "Awe its ok just don't do it again." Where the more experienced one will dispense discipline and then say "You are forgiven. Don't do it again." Use whatever punishment is in your contract. If you don't you have broken your word.

That will make him feel loved and cared for.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes

Maybe you can differentiate your punishment that you need to give him from the punishment you received by realizing what you need to do is under the category of "Tough Love" and will help you two in having a better relationship, whereas the punishments you received were simply cruel.
=========
ETA: His misbehavior might have been sub-conciously testing your boundries.

He may NEED to be punished to be reassured as to your true feelings for him.

(in reply to LanceHughes)

Post #: 16

RE: First Punishment - 3/17/2013 4:54:18 PM

Mishna

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Joined: 11/1/2008
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Perhaps he is testing the limits subconsciously, or perhaps he is as unused to being in a contract as I am and simply forgot that he now has rules he must obey. Regardless, that doesn't change my own discomfort. However, it could be that the hurdle of this will resolve itself when he and I have had an opportunity to speak about what happened. My own sense of unease might dissipate. I will find out tonight when he is back in town.

Thanks for the input, everyone.

(in reply to ToSirWithLove13)

Post #: 17

RE: First Punishment - 3/17/2013 6:05:20 PM

Lucifyre

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As someone on the /s side in a punishment dynamic (who doesn't get punished for some thing I probably should) I have to agree with Lance and ToSirwithlove, it really does help reaffirm His level of "give a shit" hen He follows through with something He says He intends to do. It's not about the act of punishment itself, it's about Him showing me that the D/s relationship is important enough to Him to follow through. I still feel that sometimes we are doing this just for me and my sake and that's NOT a good feeling for me. I need to know and sometimes be reassured that He is getting somethng out of the dynamic in order for what we do to be ok in my own head.
My suggestion: follow through with the agreed upon punishment, if it still doesn't sit well with you then renegotiate that aspect of the relationship. Others have suggested punishments that are completely non D/s...those work too! Make the punishment fit the crime though, don't just dole out a set of chores or a harsh spanking if they don't compliment what his error was.
Also, I need to add that at least for me personally, withdrawing attention as a punishment does not work for me. In fact, all that does for me is breed resentment. Tread very carefully if you decide that ignoring him is a fit payment for his transgression, that's one of the faster things to backfire.
Good Luck!

just my opinion
Lucifyre

< Message edited by Lucifyre -- 3/17/2013 6:07:07 PM >

_____________________________

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I do this because it fucking feels good.
I like girls who like girls
The thing about standards is: There are SO many to choose from.

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RE: First Punishment - 3/17/2013 6:45:11 PM

Mishna

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Joined: 11/1/2008
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He and I spoke this evening and it was a misinterpretation of something I had said. It came down to a discussion of "ask if there is any uncertainty and we won't have this problem again." So, it has led to a greater understanding of how we communicate and how our minds work.

Lucifyre, no, ignoring someone, withdrawing my attention is definitely not the way I handle things. I was a sub some years ago and one dom I had did that to me, one time, and it was emotionally intolerable for me. I also feel that it would be completely ineffective given our relationship.

(in reply to Lucifyre)

Post #: 19

RE: First Punishment - 3/17/2013 7:21:01 PM

theRose4U

Posts: 3403
Joined: 8/22/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes

THE classic punishment is to deprive him of THE thing he desires MOST - namely your attention / interaction.

Talk about "the punishment fits the crime"..... He's away from you and disobeys. You withdraw. Maybe three days of not speaking to him. (Three days being the time of the lifestyle event, I'll guess.)

For short-term... "I'm so disappointed in you, I don't even want to see you for the next 6 hours. Get out of my sight."

ETA: And then the "work through it" types of conversations talked about above. This may very well include re-working the contract.
=========
Of course, these posts see to have slid away from your OP about your murky feelings.

Maybe you can differentiate your punishment that you need to give him from the punishment you received by realizing what you need to do is under the category of "Tough Love" and will help you two in having a better relationship, whereas the punishments you received were simply cruel.
=========
ETA: His misbehavior might have been sub-conciously testing your boundries.

He may NEED to be punished to be reassured as to your true feelings for him.

While I normally agree with lance the pants, I strongly disagree with "get out of my sight, don't call, don't write for x days" in my experience any of those statements signals the impending doom of the relationship.

Punishment in my experience sucks for both. Him actually feeling bad about x to me signals redemption is possible. Me its disappointment in him, questioning myself of where & how things went wrong. & pondering how best to solve the problem.

Let the punishment fit the crime. Posting mid thread I've missed any specifics. If broken rules were bed time, no alcohol, not "hanging out" with x problem person then spanking or labor reinforce the rule. Personally I'm against "because you missed curfew, you go to bed early every day next week" because it provides more opportunities for disobedience. The answer to "why did you ___" usually will point out the severity of the issue at hand & thus the level of appropriate punishment. Beware the pit of "I did it so you'd spank me"...that one does justify kicking his ass. Jeff's answer is probably best as long as the dynamic is already in place to ask for spanking or bondage because the sub "needs it"

_____________________________

Finding a good sub is like sifting through trail mix. You find a few fruits, a lotta nuts and have to sift to get to the sweet and special ones
drama llama

(in reply to LanceHughes)

Post #: 20

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