RE: Do you generally give the Domina both keys of the cock cage? (Full Version)

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LadyPact -> RE: Do you generally give the Domina both keys of the cock cage? (3/22/2013 12:24:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009
Actually, we don't disagree. We've discussed male chastity before, so you may remember that I agree that the best way to do it is without a device. IMO, it SHOULD be enough to simply tell him not to touch it, and to have him obey.

But having said that, there are those who can't keep their hands off of themselves. For those individuals, having a key would not be a good thing.

For those who of you who are on FetLife, I suggest that you visit one of the male chastity groups, and notice how often the guys say that they can't go more than _____ (usually less than 24 hours) without masturbating. The guys there actually announce that they've been locked up for a whole 3 hours with masturbating (as though that's a major accomplishment).

So in a world where guys can't even go 3 hours without masturbating, giving him a key probably isn't the best idea.
I'm trying so hard not to laugh right now and type a logical response. I just can't help Myself.

The above is exactly why I am *not* interested in the "put it in chastity" guys. Too ruled by the dick to be ruled by anything else. Anybody who has raised a son knows just how fascinating that little thing can be. One would hope that maturity would change that.




LafayetteLady -> RE: Do you generally give the Domina both keys of the cock cage? (3/22/2013 1:48:30 PM)

During play, of course use those things. However, would you find it appropriate for a top to restrain you and then leave without you having any ability to free yourself if necessary?

Of course, the emergency situations are not frequent, but they are possibilities. People being gagged rarely choke and die, but the possibility exists, and most doms/masters/tops for this reason pay attention to what's going on.

Both LP and I have readily agreed that a chastity device could be a good enhancement during play. We just believe that the guys who need chastity because they can't keep their hands off their dicks when left alone (apparently even for a mere 3 hours) are too much work and not people we care to bother with.



UllrsIshtar -> RE: Do you generally give the Domina both keys of the cock cage? (3/22/2013 2:09:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

During play, of course use those things. However, would you find it appropriate for a top to restrain you and then leave without you having any ability to free yourself if necessary?



I already said that, when locks are used, I always have the top hold one key, and bottom the other one, in a sealed envelop.
The same applies to chastity devices. I wouldn't be in a situation where the D-type held both keys, because the locks I use take a serious bolt cutter to open, which wouldn't be feasible to be done by the sub himself because of the angles involved (besides the fact that the chastity device I'd use is actually bolt cutter proof).

Other than that, I consider ANY time a top restrains me in a way that I cannot free myself a time where I'm in hypothetical danger.

He could fall and break his skull, or have a heart attack, or have a stroke.

Having him in the room when I'm restraint and cannot free myself does NOT guarantee my safety.

Therefore, if restraints are used that I cannot free myself off, I don't consider there to be any difference between whether he stays in the room or leaves. If I cannot free myself, I'm potentially in danger... whether he's there or not.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

Both LP and I have readily agreed that a chastity device could be a good enhancement during play. We just believe that the guys who need chastity because they can't keep their hands off their dicks when left alone (apparently even for a mere 3 hours) are too much work and not people we care to bother with.


And that's fine that you think so. I'm not saying you should be interested in people you're not interested in. Set your standards where ever you want, obviously.

However, I do not consider a chastity device to only be a good enhancement during play session. In fact, I think it's much the same as a collar, and that the constant reminder of a physical item put their by the D-type can enhance relationships. Not just play sessions.

As far as guys who can't keep their hands off their dicks being too much work. Sure, I can absolutely see that point.

But not every guy who is interested in wearing long term chastity devices is a guy who can't keep his hands of his dick. Just like not every s-type who enjoys wearing a collar 24/7 actually needs a physical reminder in order to stay submissive. You cannot equate one to the other.

On top of that, there isn't necessarily even something wrong with a guy who can't or won't keep his hand off his dick. He may very well be an extremely poor match for you, and LP, and me, but that doesn't mean he needs to be put down for having different needs in a partner than what you, LP or me would expect.

Like I said: I can't stand still, or be quiet during impact play to save my life. Hell... I can't stand perfectly still in attention on command either. I fidget, incessantly. I can't help it. I have circulatory issues and my body's natural response is to keep me shifting muscle tension to keep stuff from falling asleep.
I would be a TERRIBLE match for a D-type who expected me to be able to "just obey" and stand still.
That doesn't mean that there is something inherently bad about my lack of capability to stand still though... nor is there something wrong with a guy's lack of drive to be able to, or want to obey a command to not masturbate. It just means he's not the type of guy you're looking for.




LadyPact -> RE: Do you generally give the Domina both keys of the cock cage? (3/22/2013 2:33:03 PM)

I'm not really sure there is a disagreement here.

When clip's collar goes on, it's not the collar that makes him owned. It's an enhancement to the feeling that is already inside of him and an outward symbol. He doesn't stop being owned when the leather comes off of his neck so he can take a shower. If a chastity device was the same thing, there wouldn't be any worry about the s having a key because he's already wants to obey and the potential for *needing* a key for the sake of an emergency wouldn't be an issue.

I don't think you can equate needing bonds or a gag during impact play as the same principle. During impact play, you have an outside force that impacts the subject. (Kind of the point of that play, really.) Where's the outside force in comparison to wanting to rub one out? Barring a compulsion or sexual addiction, that's just a lack of self control.

This is one of My favorite comments from Rochsub about the subject.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009

The guys who say that are typically full of s**t. They're simply trying to manipulate you into facilitating their kink.

A chastity device doesn't make anyone "more servile". Frankly, it makes them far more focused on their dick (as though we men need to be more focused on our dicks).

Think about it for a moment. Chastity devices are uncomfortable. That discomfort causes us to think about it constantly. Then they can be bulky. So they make us imagine that everyone knows that we're wearing it. They also make it almost impossible to go to the bathroom in the normal way. So we often have to sit when going to the bathroom (which is unusual for men, unless we're doing #2). Chastity devices can be painful at night, when they prevent us from getting our normal "nocturnal erections". And of course, we can feel the weight of the device. All the time. And if you have a metal lock on it, we can hear the constant clicking when we walk.

Most women never really think about what it's like to be a guy who is wearing a chastity device. But I just gave you a look into our world. Now do you see why wearing a chastity device makes us MORE focused on our dicks, and not less so? The device itself serves as a constant reminder of our dick. It prevents us from thinking about much else.



UllrsIshtar -> RE: Do you generally give the Domina both keys of the cock cage? (3/22/2013 2:53:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact



If a chastity device was the same thing, there wouldn't be any worry about the s having a key because he's already wants to obey and the potential for *needing* a key for the sake of an emergency wouldn't be an issue.




I disagree, in nuance, with that.

I do agree with you that, if the only way you can extract obedience is by physical force, or restraints, there isn't that much submission to speak off, and it makes the whole D/s relationship kind of moot.

However, for me personally at least, locks are an integral part of restraints that cannot be skipped on. Because without the lock, the mindset itself that the restraint is supposed to bring doesn't happen.

I don't do collars without a lock, because collars without a lock don't create the same "mood" for me as collars with clasps do. (Hell for permanent wear collars I don't even like steel eternity collars, which can be opened with an allen wrench, because they don't feel "locked" enough to me. Nor do I like leather collars with a keyed lock, because leather can be cut easily. It needs to be steel with a keyed lock to create the right "mood".)
So I also don't prefer cuffs, or gags, or chastity devices, or cages without locks. To me, the lock in and of itself is an integral part of the "mood" of an item that enhances my experience.
And part of that "mood" is that the spare key, that the s-type holds, needs to be behind some sort of barrier where it cannot be accessed without the D-types knowledge, like the envelop I mentioned.
It's got nothing to do with obedience -at least not for me- and I could be as obedient about not opening a lock with or without the key physically in my hand... but my headspace in both cases would be totally different.
You lock a collar around my neck and hand me the key, and you may as well have used velcro, because at that point, the lock doesn't add value anymore.

Another illustration to maybe make that difference clearer:

I wear a white gold wedding ring my husband got me for our first anniversary. The first year of my marriage I wore a fake cubic zirconia ring.
Did I feel less married the first year? Nope, not at all.
Do I need a gold wedding ring as an affirmation of my commitment to him? Nope, but I sure do love wearing it.
Do I feel the same about wearing both pieces? No, not at all. I didn't feel any less committed, or married, or in love, or appreciative of him when I was wearing a fake ring than now that I'm wearing an actual gold ring... but at the same time, the "mood" of both rings isn't the same to me either.

When I use locks, either as a top or as a bottom, the "mood" is all that's important to me. My entire motivation for putting a collar, or a chastity device on somebody would be to create a certain headspace/mood in that person. Therefore, my choice between velcro, claps, or locks and between leather, plastic, cloth or steel would all be based on what the goal "mood" was. I've "tied" people up with sewing yarn, ordering them not to break the fragile strings, because of the way I felt at the time, and the headspace I wanted them to be in.

However, when I select a lock for use having the key "easily" (without the enforcement that it will be know if it was used) accessible to the s-type ruins the "mood" that a lock brings for me. And therefore make the difference between using a lock and no lock non-existent, which defeats the purpose of selecting a lock to begin with.

It's about creating the fantasy of the lock... not about the actual physical restraint.



LafayetteLady -> RE: Do you generally give the Domina both keys of the cock cage? (3/22/2013 7:02:02 PM)

I think we are basically in agreement here, really. I have no issue with the idea of some kind of barrier for the key so the top would know it was used. I think that is a great idea. But someone taking both keys and leaving no possibility in case of whatever coming up to be free of the device? Not a good idea.

quote:


On top of that, there isn't necessarily even something wrong with a guy who can't or won't keep his hand off his dick. He may very well be an extremely poor match for you, and LP, and me, but that doesn't mean he needs to be put down for having different needs in a partner than what you, LP or me would expect.


As for the above though...yes, there is something psychologically wrong with a guy who can't or won't keep his hand off his dick. How does he go in public, to work, to church, wherever? There is a show (which I am crazy for) called Sons of Anarchy. One of the supporting characters had a problem keeping his hands off his dick. It is a psychological disorder needing medication. So no, a chastity device is not in order for that situation. It isn't simply "different needs."



UllrsIshtar -> RE: Do you generally give the Domina both keys of the cock cage? (3/22/2013 7:17:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

As for the above though...yes, there is something psychologically wrong with a guy who can't or won't keep his hand off his dick. How does he go in public, to work, to church, wherever? There is a show (which I am crazy for) called Sons of Anarchy. One of the supporting characters had a problem keeping his hands off his dick. It is a psychological disorder needing medication. So no, a chastity device is not in order for that situation. It isn't simply "different needs."


People have poor impulse control all the time. There are tons of people who manage to behave one way in public (when there is social enforcement) but then in private go overboard indulging themselves with excessive behavior due to poor self-control. That behavior can range from watching too much porn, to watching too much tv, eating too much, procrastinating too much, and yes... masturbating too much. It isn't necessarily a psychological disorder -though I'm not saying it can't be, in some cases- but more often a matter of a person who hasn't learned how to deal with not having their immediate wants satisfied all the time.
You see it all the time in certain types of people, they just won't muster up the will power to hold of on the instant gratification for x amount of time, because they've never learned how to cope with that. That doesn't mean that they can't. It doesn't mean that they're irrationally compelled to do so (like an OCD person would be) it's just that they don't know how.

Now, I wouldn't want to be in a relationship with somebody like that. Whether his impulse control dealt with his cock or not wouldn't matter to me. But at the same time, that doesn't mean that there is something seriously wrong with these people... could they benefit from psychological or behavioral therapy help... yeah probably, so could large sections of the population, but "being able to benefit from learning new behavioral strategies" does not equal "psychological disorder needing medication".



seekingOwnertoo -> RE: Do you generally give the Domina both keys of the cock cage? (3/22/2013 9:24:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I'm not big on the chastity device thing. I look at them more like toys to enhance a situation. I'm more the type that if I say "no" I really shouldn't *need* a device (which is different than want) for control/obedience purposes.



Met a Lady recently ... She said She wanted a Harem ... of course i asked a similar question about the chastity device ... She kind of said what LP did .. then added .. unless I make you take Viagra, and spend the weekend with you! Then it would be fun to pace you! [:D]


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

In My opinion, there should always be a contingency plan in place. That goes for chastity devices, eternity collars, and anything else that medical personnel would have to take off of you if you ended up in an emergency room.





I always thought the contingency plan was a pair of wire cutters, to remove the lock. [:D] Then too, there is the assumption, that one would still be coherent .. and not blacked out. But i guess the same thing is true of using a key. [:)]


The reality of this is ... there are legitimate health risks involved ... and while it may be fun to do with a 24/7 partner ... it is NOT something to be done casually ... or for a thrill.

The Lady has to be ACTIVELY involved in monitoring ...

Not many want to ....




LafayetteLady -> RE: Do you generally give the Domina both keys of the cock cage? (3/22/2013 9:43:28 PM)

Yea, actually that kind of poor impulse control is a psychological disorder. That's like saying an alcoholic who only drinks alone at home isn't an alcoholic, which is simply not the case.



UllrsIshtar -> RE: Do you generally give the Domina both keys of the cock cage? (3/22/2013 10:17:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

Yea, actually that kind of poor impulse control is a psychological disorder. That's like saying an alcoholic who only drinks alone at home isn't an alcoholic, which is simply not the case.


We're just going to have to disagree on that one.

If that sort of mild not learning to deal with a lack of instant gratification is a psychological disorder, over half of the population suffers from psychological disorders.
Where I come from, they call that a guilty pleasure... something you know you probably shouldn't do, but do anyways because it feels good in the moment, to then feel guilty about later.

Now, when it becomes problematic to the point where it causes the person to be unable to function in normal society... I'm totally with you there.

If a guy can't keep his hands off his cock long enough to hold down a job, or go out in public, he needs help. But simply being prone to over indulging in masturbation isn't a psychological disorder any more than eating a bunch of sweets, when you know you're not supposed because you're on a diet.

The fact that a guy would indulging in masturbation rather than be obedient and keep his hands off his cock makes him a poor match to be in a relationship with somebody who expects obedience as a prerequisite for the relationship... but it doesn't he needs medication or a shrink.



seekingOwnertoo -> RE: Do you generally give the Domina both keys of the cock cage? (3/23/2013 5:45:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar


quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

Yea, actually that kind of poor impulse control is a psychological disorder. That's like saying an alcoholic who only drinks alone at home isn't an alcoholic, which is simply not the case.


We're just going to have to disagree on that one.

If that sort of mild not learning to deal with a lack of instant gratification is a psychological disorder, over half of the population suffers from psychological disorders.
Where I come from, they call that a guilty pleasure... something you know you probably shouldn't do, but do anyways because it feels good in the moment, to then feel guilty about later.

Now, when it becomes problematic to the point where it causes the person to be unable to function in normal society... I'm totally with you there.

If a guy can't keep his hands off his cock long enough to hold down a job, or go out in public, he needs help. But simply being prone to over indulging in masturbation isn't a psychological disorder any more than eating a bunch of sweets, when you know you're not supposed because you're on a diet.

The fact that a guy would indulging in masturbation rather than be obedient and keep his hands off his cock makes him a poor match to be in a relationship with somebody who expects obedience as a prerequisite for the relationship... but it doesn't he needs medication or a shrink.




Hmmm ... and I wasn't even thinking about masturbation ...

I was thinking about having a drink AND a smoke, at the SAME time ... in MY home ....

And being called an alcoholic because I want instant gratification ... the ONLY PLACE I can drink and smoke at the same time! [:D] [:D] [:D]








imtempting -> RE: Do you generally give the Domina both keys of the cock cage? (3/24/2013 7:04:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact As I said in My prior post, I really don't see the device as anything more than an enhancement to chastity play. I honestly believe that anybody should have the fortitude to keep their hands off of their cock if they are told to and a device isn't really a requirement.

The arguments about how cheap the locks are would be an aside. I would expect a grown man to obey.



I agree with you 100%. Both for male and female, they should be able to keep their hands of their private part if told too. I went for 3 weeks with no orgasm and I had no chastity device at all.



LafayetteLady -> RE: Do you generally give the Domina both keys of the cock cage? (3/24/2013 8:14:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seekingOwnertoo


Hmmm ... and I wasn't even thinking about masturbation ...

I was thinking about having a drink AND a smoke, at the SAME time ... in MY home ....

And being called an alcoholic because I want instant gratification ... the ONLY PLACE I can drink and smoke at the same time! [:D] [:D] [:D]


Well, that is a very good point, you can't smoke almost anywhere but your own home anymore. Unless you are an alcoholic and seeking the instant gratification of feeling that scotch warmly slide down your throat, it doesn't matter, lol. You can want instant gratification, and not be an alcoholic, it's ok, lol.







LadyPact -> RE: Do you generally give the Domina both keys of the cock cage? (3/24/2013 11:21:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

Yea, actually that kind of poor impulse control is a psychological disorder. That's like saying an alcoholic who only drinks alone at home isn't an alcoholic, which is simply not the case.
I don't know about this one, LL. These days, there are some very logical advantages to drinking at home, rather than going out.




LafayetteLady -> RE: Do you generally give the Domina both keys of the cock cage? (3/24/2013 3:13:49 PM)

Yes, there are, but an alcoholic is an alcoholic wherever they drink. My comment doesn't apply to social drinkers who don't have problems with alcohol consumption.



LookieNoNookie -> RE: Do you generally give the Domina both keys of the cock cage? (3/24/2013 6:30:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: subinsilicon

Just curious since a Domina I interviewed with said she always took both keys, do you generally do that?


If I had such a device, I'd keep both keys and give her a key to the mailbox.



SomethingCatchy -> RE: Do you generally give the Domina both keys of the cock cage? (3/24/2013 6:55:50 PM)

quote:

He can let himself out any time. That defeats the whole purpose of locking him up.


This is why I think male chastity is incredibly stupid. If he doesn't have the self control and will power to not touch himself then why even waste the time saying no? Just walk away until he grows up.

quote:

As far as the argument "he should just not masturbate if told not to" goes.

If that's the case, none of the restraint types toys we use would be necessary.


None of them are necessary. If I tell someone to hold still they should do what I tell them to do. If they're incapable of following my orders why am I wasting time on them? I use bondage in situations where I know it's UNREASONABLE to expect anything from them or because I want to see what it looks like for my own amusement. I've got gear that locks. That doesn't mean I lock them. I should be able to trust the s-type to not undo himself. If I can't... yet again WHY am I wasting my time??



AllisonWilder -> RE: Do you generally give the Domina both keys of the cock cage? (3/24/2013 7:03:28 PM)

Chastity devices just aren't my thing. There are too many 'what if's' to consider, the most important one being that there's the potential that *I* could misplace the keys and then he's just out of luck. I have a tendency to lose keys--house keys, car keys, PO box key. I would hate to lose a key that would be very important to someone else's well being.


If --and that's a huge if-- I were to use one with a sub, he would have to have a key that he carried with him (around his neck or in his wallet, most likely) at all times. I wouldn't feel comfortable even being across town with his only means of escape in case of emergency.



UllrsIshtar -> RE: Do you generally give the Domina both keys of the cock cage? (3/24/2013 10:25:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SomethingCatchy

quote:

He can let himself out any time. That defeats the whole purpose of locking him up.


This is why I think male chastity is incredibly stupid. If he doesn't have the self control and will power to not touch himself then why even waste the time saying no? Just walk away until he grows up.


I went over this in detail already but all right:

The purpose isn't to get him to keep his hands of his dick. The purpose is to create a headspace/mood... the fantasy of being locked up and the feelings that are accompanied with that fantasy.


quote:

ORIGINAL: SomethingCatchy

None of them are necessary. If I tell someone to hold still they should do what I tell them to do. If they're incapable of following my orders why am I wasting time on them?

--

I should be able to trust the s-type to not undo himself. If I can't... yet again WHY am I wasting my time??


By all means, don't waste your time. If you're not interested in the headspace a certain piece of bondage creates -be that a chastity device, cuffs, blindfolds, gags, chains, cages or anything else- then by all means, don't use it.

But spouting out that chastity devices are "incredible stupid" just because you're not interested in the type of headspace they create is arrogant at best. Nobody is telling you you should waste your precious time... why are you suggesting that other people are stupid and are wasting theirs just because they're interested in different types of play than you are?

Your profile lists you're interested in fisting. Something that holds no interest to me whatsoever. Yet you'll never see me complaining that fisting is incredibly stupid because it purposefully stretches out holes you have solid medical reasons to want to keep tight.

I don't get a whole bunch of kinks that people engage in. And you know what, most kinksters I know don't get a whole bunch of kinks people other than themselves engage in... but one of the only kinks I've continuously seen shot down, put down, talked down to and ridiculed is that of chastity devices on males subs. "I'm Dominant enough to make my sub/slave obey!!!!" is brought up over and over again on chastity threads. So you are... great... good for you... are you suggesting that anybody who uses a chastity device isn't? Are you suggesting that it is not possible to use bondage for reasons other than to physically restrain somebody? Are you suggesting that you never use "illusions" and fantasies in play to create a headspace? No, then I'll thank you very much to maybe try to consider for 2 seconds that other people may very well have other preferences than you yourself do, before you again decide to ridicule them for not being your perfect clone.



MsGypsey -> RE: Do you generally give the Domina both keys of the cock cage? (3/25/2013 10:04:45 AM)

If this scenario has already been proposed, then ignore. But... let's say the dominant were to be given both keys. What's to stop him from making a third set and simply not telling her?



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