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The Price We Pay - 3/22/2013 12:48:13 AM

DaddySatyr

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ObummerCare

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RE: The Price We Pay - 3/22/2013 1:14:33 AM

tweakabelle

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If you are genuinely concerned about health care costs, and not merely scoring cheap political points you might like to ponder why US healthcare consumers pay twice as much as consumers in the rest of the West for a lot less quantity and quality of health care.

Other countries do a whole lot more in terms of healthcare for a whole lot less in terms of cash. This suggests that there is considerable fat in current US healthcare arrangements, all that fat causing grossly inflated costs, and greatly reduced services and health outcomes.

US healthcare costs are approx double those of equivalent Western countries - which suggests that savings of up to 50c in the $ are possible if more efficient higher quality health care arrangements are made in the US.

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RE: The Price We Pay - 3/22/2013 2:27:49 AM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

If you are genuinely concerned about health care costs, and not merely scoring cheap political points you might like to ponder why US healthcare consumers pay twice as much as consumers in the rest of the West for a lot less quantity and quality of health care.

At least part of the reason is the litigious nature of our society and the potentially enormous damage awards in medical malpractice cases. As more cases result in increasingly huge payouts, grave uncertainties arise about the possible risk facing insurers. This combination of increased risk of litigation along with increasing uncertainty about the potential extent of financial risk breeds higher premiums.

Australia has a system that limits the amount of damages available to a plaintiff and apportions non-economic damages based on a hypothetical "most extreme case," resulting in lower awards overall and more predictable outcomes. I would imagine that the system must also spare Australia the circus of hideously expensive civil jury trials with lawyers working on contingency pushing for the Moon.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/22/2013 2:35:28 AM >

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RE: The Price We Pay - 3/22/2013 2:35:56 AM

DaddySatyr

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Thank you for reposting this, Kirata.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

If you are genuinely concerned about health care costs, and not merely scoring cheap political points you might like to ponder why US healthcare consumers pay twice as much as consumers in the rest of the West for a lot less quantity and quality of health care.

This may or may not be a valid point but, assuming that it is; what the article actually says is that instead of fixing the problem of inflated costs, Obummercare is going to make the costs go up, even more.

So, to give a direct answer to: "you might like to ponder why US healthcare consumers pay twice as much as consumers in the rest of the West for a lot less quantity and quality of health care" : It would appear that one of the reasons for rising costs is Obummercare.

Peace and comfort,

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< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 3/22/2013 2:38:19 AM >

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RE: The Price We Pay - 3/22/2013 2:39:31 AM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

ObummerCare

When you speak of "ObummerCare," is that a reference President Baracorp Obankster?

K.

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RE: The Price We Pay - 3/22/2013 2:40:51 AM

DaddySatyr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

ObummerCare

When you speak of "ObummerCare," is that a reference President Baracorp Obankster?

K.

Would I do that?

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RE: The Price We Pay - 3/22/2013 4:50:03 AM

EternalHoH

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

ObummerCare

When you speak of "ObummerCare," is that a reference President Baracorp Obankster?

K.

You mean that socialist guy?

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RE: The Price We Pay - 3/22/2013 4:55:09 AM

EternalHoH

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Our medical community needs to learn one phrase. "Just because we can, doesn't mean we should."

How many of those lawsuits are over silly and costly "cadillac" procedures, like hip replacements, that we never used to do with such frequency. Old people from previous generations simply learned to live with their ailments.

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RE: The Price We Pay - 3/22/2013 5:08:43 AM

DesideriScuri

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
If you are genuinely concerned about health care costs, and not merely scoring cheap political points you might like to ponder why US healthcare consumers pay twice as much as consumers in the rest of the West for a lot less quantity and quality of health care.
Other countries do a whole lot more in terms of healthcare for a whole lot less in terms of cash. This suggests that there is considerable fat in current US healthcare arrangements, all that fat causing grossly inflated costs, and greatly reduced services and health outcomes.
US healthcare costs are approx double those of equivalent Western countries - which suggests that savings of up to 50c in the $ are possible if more efficient higher quality health care arrangements are made in the US.

Costs for individual procedures are ridiculously high in the US, compared to pretty much everywhere else. Why? Because they can be. It isn't because of the cost of ER treatments for the unable to pay (charity care). That wouldn't extend to private practice GP's would it?

Physicians get paid higher here, too. Part of that is the limitations placed on supply of physicians, which is controlled by the AMA (who has been given monopoly to do that by the Fed's). Part of that, as Kirata pointed out, is the cost of malpractice insurance.

Obamacare isn't going to separate the insurance companies from the care givers, either. Owning a hospital means the hospital can charge insurance companies more money which the insurance company passes down as premium hikes. Plus, higher costs also increases the amount the hospital can claim and write off as "charity care," regardless of the true cost of care.

Since Obamacare is truly nothing more than a payoff to insurance companies in the near term, it's not likely to help in the long run, either.

I do have to admit that I got a huge laugh out of the $6.2T red ink it might create, over 75 years. I mean, seriously? Bush and Obama are both going to do that in their respective 8 years. That little tidbit had me laughing. Of all the worries over the cost of Obamacare, $6.2T over 75 years is ridiculous. An average of $83B per year in red ink when we're projecting at least 5x that each year over the next 5 years? That seems to be a bit too much nitpicking there.

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RE: The Price We Pay - 3/22/2013 5:19:57 AM

jlf1961

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Obamacare was an attempt to fix the problem, as flawed as it is.

With health insurance premiums reaching the point where only the upper middle class and the wealthy can afford them, someone had to do something.

Of course, we (Americans) could let those who cant afford to pay the high health insurance premiums die from treatable diseases and injuries, but then who is going to take your order at Burger King? Or do the lawn work so many upper income are too good to do for themselves?

Socialized medicine is in trouble in the countries that have it, so that is not the answer, nor would switching to such a system be easy and without a hell of a lot of problems, but damn, we as a country need to do something to bring health care costs within reach of everyone.

Everyone on the right complains about Obamacare adding to the problem, and everyone on the extreme left scream for a system that would cause more problems than it fixes for the states to switch to.

But no one has offered a viable alternative to fix the problem that makes sense. Instead everyone fucking argues about solutions in favor of solutions that wont work, or is damn near impossible to implement.

Then of course you have the people that are paying for health insurance that are being treated for conditions that have long term treatment times that hit the insurance companies cap on individual care costs.

Yup, we have a great system. Minor errors in treatment result in lawsuits out the ass, hell even when the complication is one that can happen and people are warned about they still fucking sue.

At least some states are on the right track.

quote:

Twenty-eight states have laws that limit payments in malpractice cases, and several studies indicate that these laws reduce the frequency and severity of malpractice claims and lower premiums. Moreover, proponents believe that such laws reduce health care expenditures by reducing the practice of defensive medicine. However, there is a dearth of empirical evidence about the impact of these laws on the cost of health care.
The Impact of State Laws Limiting Malpractice Damage Awards on Health Care Expenditures

My solution to the problem is for both sides to stop the partisan bullshit and sit down with professionals from the industry in the field of cost of care, and work out a viable solution.

Until they do, take away the congressional health care system.

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RE: The Price We Pay - 3/22/2013 5:31:04 AM

Owner59

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Funny how doom and gloomers can see into the future.......

Back to reality....the one fox noise viewers ignore.....

"Obamacare saved consumers $1.5 billion — and that’s bad news for insurers"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/05/obamacare-saved-consumers-1-5-billion-and-thats-bad-news-for-insurers/

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RE: The Price We Pay - 3/22/2013 5:33:38 AM

Phoenixpower

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

If you are genuinely concerned about health care costs, and not merely scoring cheap political points you might like to ponder why US healthcare consumers pay twice as much as consumers in the rest of the West for a lot less quantity and quality of health care.

Well said

Well...I do know I repeat myself but here is once again a link

http://www.amiexpat.com/2009/08/18/health-care-in-germany/

where an american explains the system over here...

Personally I can only say I am glad, that when my mum went through her recent cancer treatment, it did not mean any bills to us.

Mum paid into it all her life via her wages and got the treatment she needed, had a free peace of mind as she knew, that she does not have to worry about potentially losing her house, or whatever other consequences it can lead to, according to articles I read about the US in the past...

I do not know enough about your system to judge it, but I am glad about the one we have

< Message edited by Phoenixpower -- 3/22/2013 5:37:24 AM >

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RE: The Price We Pay - 3/22/2013 5:35:21 AM

jlf1961

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Owner, I know the savings that have been shown and proved.

The problem is that Obamacare is flawed in many ways. Okay it is better than what we have now.

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RE: The Price We Pay - 3/22/2013 6:03:08 AM

Owner59

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Owner, I know the savings that have been shown and proved.

The problem is that Obamacare is flawed in many ways. Okay it is better than what we have now.

I`ll agree with that.

Anything IMHO, that ham-strings the medical insurance industrial bureaucracy, is a good thing.

It is within this one(huge) part of the system where most of the abuse and waste is.

It`s also where the "law-suit" myths comes from.

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RE: The Price We Pay - 3/22/2013 6:40:36 AM

tazzygirl

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RE: The Price We Pay - 3/22/2013 6:50:37 AM

MrRodgers

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

Thank you for reposting this, Kirata.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

If you are genuinely concerned about health care costs, and not merely scoring cheap political points you might like to ponder why US healthcare consumers pay twice as much as consumers in the rest of the West for a lot less quantity and quality of health care.

This may or may not be a valid point but, assuming that it is; what the article actually says is that instead of fixing the problem of inflated costs, Obummercare is going to make the costs go up, even more.

So, to give a direct answer to: "you might like to ponder why US healthcare consumers pay twice as much as consumers in the rest of the West for a lot less quantity and quality of health care" : It would appear that one of the reasons for rising costs is Obummercare.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

When will you and American society learn ? It seems NEVER !!

What seems to be the continuing ignorance is that of the money culture. A culture is a way of life. We have long since established that culture a complete way of life that manifests itself in what ? A culture of...GREED !!

Maximized profits, i.e. $100 MRI (Japan,Germany) is $1,500 US. 20-30-40,000% mark up on drugs long since discovered and whose R & D paid for.

Maximized profits for the insurance industry, (legally able to fix prices) no competition so despite tort and huge awards, the cash richest industry even with millions in lawsuits...is the insurance industry.

Tort is still a little less than 2% of ALL insurance costs. Over 95% of tort is a business suing a business not medical lawsuits.

Obama care as ALL reform is NO reform. It is requiring those NOT paying...to pay and if too much, the US subsidizes what ? The US govt. will now subsidize GREED. This is nothing less than a windfall profit for providers.

Those that couldn't pay but received service can now pay either themselves or uncle Sam and as a true blue American capitalist...I don't care who pays, just show me as much money as I can squeeze out for immense profits out of your govt.

Medicare making us go broke ? Why ? It is a service provided and fee and costs for service paid benefit that must pay who ? The GREEDY.

Those countries that have tort reform also have price controls and super high taxes on super high incomes. That doesn't comport with US greed.

Get over it kinkroids, reform is always simply a new profit regime, won by the greedy and ObamaCare kisses their greedy ass.

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RE: The Price We Pay - 3/22/2013 7:03:38 AM

JeffBC

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
My solution to the problem is for both sides to stop the partisan bullshit and sit down with professionals from the industry in the field of cost of care, and work out a viable solution.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Yes, because modern corporatism has worked so well for us so far we should definitely do more of it.

So wait. Just to be clear here. You think that the government should get hold of "professionals from the industry" and together they should cook up some scheme and the results of that will somehow benefit anyone but government and the industries? In what alternate world does this happen?

Look. If the US wanted to fix this they could simply look over the border at what is happening in Canada and implement it. Problem solved. Oh wait... no the problem isn't solved because 2 billion lobbyists would descend on DC if anyone even floated that idea. Next we'd see television ads claiming that there are death panels in Canada and people with brain tumors can't get medical attention because there are no doctors and the raft of other made up bullshit that comes every time.

If we wanted to fix it we'd go to any of the zillion countries where it is already way better and ask for some help. That's what normal people would do anyway... find someone who's doing it better and get some help.

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RE: The Price We Pay - 3/22/2013 8:08:51 AM

DesideriScuri

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
Funny how doom and gloomers can see into the future.......
Back to reality....the one fox noise viewers ignore.....
"Obamacare saved consumers $1.5 billion — and that’s bad news for insurers"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/05/obamacare-saved-consumers-1-5-billion-and-thats-bad-news-for-insurers/

Not bad news for insurers. Means they didn't have to pay as much. And, how much of that $1.5B got down to the employee? How much of it went to the businesses' bottom lines, or the CEO's pocketbook? How much more did "consumers" spend? Was it more than $1.5B more than last year? If not, still paid more, no?

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RE: The Price We Pay - 3/22/2013 8:11:14 AM

Zonie63

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
My solution to the problem is for both sides to stop the partisan bullshit and sit down with professionals from the industry in the field of cost of care, and work out a viable solution.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Yes, because modern corporatism has worked so well for us so far we should definitely do more of it.

So wait. Just to be clear here. You think that the government should get hold of "professionals from the industry" and together they should cook up some scheme and the results of that will somehow benefit anyone but government and the industries? In what alternate world does this happen?

Look. If the US wanted to fix this they could simply look over the border at what is happening in Canada and implement it. Problem solved. Oh wait... no the problem isn't solved because 2 billion lobbyists would descend on DC if anyone even floated that idea. Next we'd see television ads claiming that there are death panels in Canada and people with brain tumors can't get medical attention because there are no doctors and the raft of other made up bullshit that comes every time.

If we wanted to fix it we'd go to any of the zillion countries where it is already way better and ask for some help. That's what normal people would do anyway... find someone who's doing it better and get some help.

To be honest, it's difficult to say which system is better. I think it really depends on the individual doctors and other healthcare professionals involved. There are some who truly care about their patients and will find ways to cut through the insurance company bureaucracies. But there may be others who just go through the motions and don't really care. I would imagine that both types would exist within a socialized healthcare system as well. I'm sure one can find both positive and negative anecdotes about both systems.

One problem that I find with the U.S. healthcare system is that, while it may not technically be considered "socialized medicine," it doesn't exactly strike me as "the free market at work" either. There are a lot of regulations and controls in the system that box in the consumers and give them very little choice but to pay into that system. It's our money, so we should be allowed to use it any way we wish. If there are those who want free-market medicine, then by all means, let's make it so. The first step would be to eliminate the need for prescriptions and make every medication over the counter. If I'm sick and I already know what's wrong with me and what medication I need, why should I go to a doctor just for a piece of paper that says I can buy it? I should be allowed to make my own decisions and choices about my own health without such impediments.

Admittedly, there could be some problems with deregulated, free-market healthcare as well. The buyer would have to beware. Some guy could make pills out of his garage and sell them to the public (not that that's not happening already). Alternative cures, faith healers, and the like could all be on the playing field and compete for the consumers' healthcare dollars. I've heard of some people going to places like Thailand for medical procedures, where it's much cheaper and the care is comparable to any U.S. facility. I know a number of people who go down to Mexico for dental work and prescriptions (although there are some pretty complicated laws about getting prescriptions in Mexico).

So, perhaps greater competition could make the healthcare marketplace more consumer-friendly, with reasonable prices and high quality care - all in the spirit of free-market capitalism, deregulation, and non-interference from government.

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RE: The Price We Pay - 3/22/2013 8:23:36 AM

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Quite a number of inaccuracies in that Yahoo news shit by Investors business daily, a teabagger outfit if ever there was one.

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