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The line between cyberbullying and consensual humiliation - 3/26/2013 6:02:47 AM

RedMagic1

Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
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I ran across this blog post recently.

http://www.barrenbrain.com/blog/2013/01/28/has-fetlife-popped-its-bubble/

The blog post essentially says FetLife has become unsafe for kinksters because of a tendency to blame victims of sexual assault when they try to discuss their problems on Fet. Also, hilariously perhaps, the blog post offers CollarMe as a safer alternative to Fet. This post has gone minorly viral on Tumblr and elsewhere, so it's getting some play.

I've felt for years that CM is moderated better than Fet. The rules are more consistent sitewide, and the volunteer staff is more willing to interact with the community. Still, I was reminded of the barrenbrain post yesterday because someone complained (incorrectly) about cyberbullying here.

So....

Where's the line between cyberbullying and consensual online humiliation? Where's the line between victim blaming/slut shaming and insisting on personal responsibility from a sub who enjoys rough sex?

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

Post #: 1

RE: The line between cyberbullying and consensual humil... - 3/26/2013 7:53:02 AM

theshytype

Posts: 1600
Status: offline

Cyber bullying is just that because it was not consensual - there's the line. I suspect none of the people in this article asked to be humiliated online. I'm also not sure what you mean by personal responsibility with subs who like rough sex. Why should I be shamed for my likes? Do you mean because I like rough sex, it's my fault for becoming the victim of assault or verbally attacked?
As far as what is considered cyber bullying, that is a difficult distinction to make since I really feel it's defined differently by each individual. I do believe that the moderators here have done a wonderful job avoiding it.
While there may be some seemingly bitter or maybe passionate individuals, I can't say I've seen any cyber bullying here.
Some people have thicker skin than others and some people may feel as though they're being personally attacked or bullied. I do not have thick skin...at all...but I know there are different personality types that react and communicate in a different way to my own style.

(in reply to RedMagic1)

Post #: 2

RE: The line between cyberbullying and consensual humil... - 3/26/2013 7:57:57 AM

RedMagic1

Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: theshytype
I'm also not sure what you mean by personal responsibility with subs who like rough sex. Why should I be shamed for my likes? Do you mean because I like rough sex, it's my fault for becoming the victim of assault or verbally attacked?

There's an ongoing concern about Fet that "The Caretakers allow rapists to talk but censor posts of rape victims." I don't know anything about the truth of this claim, myself.

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to theshytype)

Post #: 3

RE: The line between cyberbullying and consensual humil... - 3/26/2013 8:02:51 AM

Alwaysmylove

Posts: 14
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

quote:

Where's the line between cyberbullying and consensual online humiliation? Where's the line between victim blaming/slut shaming and insisting on personal responsibility from a sub who enjoys rough sex?

The line is simple. Just because someone enjoys rough sex, it does not give anyone else the right to make them a victim- of cyberbullying or anything else. They have the CHOICE in who they engage in that with, if anyone. And victim blaming/slut shaming is just another way of saying she was asking for it simply because of a preference that has NOTHING to do with anyone other than partners that he/she has decided to enter into a consensual power exchange with.

Why should enjoying rough sex make anyone, dominant or otherwise, think a person has loose morals? Or that he/she is fair game for humiliation if they are not involved with that person? It's a silly assumption and the personal responsibility of which you speak should be on the part of people who are overstepping the personal boundaries of another individual.

(in reply to RedMagic1)

Post #: 4

RE: The line between cyberbullying and consensual humil... - 3/26/2013 8:23:38 AM

theshytype

Posts: 1600
Status: offline

While I have an account on the site, I've never really been on it so I don't know or have any idea of what goes on.
If they're going to censor anyone, it needs to be across the board. If they're not going to censor then, again, it needs to be across the board.
That's why I like the rules here. They're pretty well defined and fair IMO.

(in reply to RedMagic1)

Post #: 5

RE: The line between cyberbullying and consensual humil... - 3/26/2013 9:45:27 AM

avox

Posts: 23
Joined: 2/12/2013
Status: offline

I think the fact that we're anonymous makes most of the negative comments slide off our backs easier than if we were on, say, Facebook, with all our friends from joisey watching over everything said about us.

(in reply to theshytype)

Post #: 6

RE: The line between cyberbullying and consensual humil... - 3/26/2013 9:49:32 AM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

OK, I did read the article, but frankly, it sounds like more hot air. My position is that, if you post content for other people to read and comment, you accept that not everybody is going to comment in the way that you want them to. For example, if sub X comes along, decides to meet with somebody that they don't know, agrees to play without any safety measures in place, and then Dom Z doesn't abide by her spoken (or even unspoken) rules, well, chances are sub X probably does have some responsibility in that. When sub X gets told she didn't make very good choices, that's not a boo hoo situation that fits the description of cyber bullying.

I have a suspicion that some of this stems from the position that some had during the "improvement voting" that Fet had some time back where a lot of people wanted to be allowed to name their "attackers" on Fet boards and journals. During those votes and the discussions leading up to them, I actually argued against this suggestion. My problem with it was, unless there was a criminal conviction over an incident, there was no proof of allegations that people wanted to post. Had Fet approved that suggestion and allowed people to implement it, nothing stopped anyone from dragging anyone through the mud, whether it was based on real incidents or not. It's just like the no blacklisting rule here and I believe both policies to be the better decision.

Keep in mind, Fet never told anyone that they couldn't tell their 'story' on their journals or even on group boards. However, in doing so, again, that opens the door for any and all comments that they receive. A message board, in My opinion, isn't about therapy or healing. I believe that is best left for other venues, such as support groups where people are going to find only positive reinforcement.

Yes, there have been greeters there in the past that had to be removed. For those that don't know, one of their "greeters" for a time was actually someone who was a severe problem on this site. When complaints were filed, he was quickly removed from that volunteer position.

As for the claim that paid Caretakers are handing out private emails of other members, I'd want to see actual proof. It shouldn't come as a big shock to anybody which two of the Caretakers I know personally and both of them are pretty big on the privacy issue. I'd be absolutely flabbergasted if that claim was a reality.

In closing, I'm not seeing this mass exodus from Fet that people who are unhappy with the site want to suggest is reality. I'm not seeing it over this and I'm not seeing it over the "Big Four" change that was made recently. Like any other venue, if a person is unhappy with the policies that exist, leave. Just don't try to make your exit and those of your thousands of imaginary supporters into some kind of a big deal for the rest of the population.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to theshytype)

Post #: 7

RE: The line between cyberbullying and consensual humil... - 3/26/2013 9:56:44 AM

RedMagic1

Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline

Thanks for the post, Lady Pact. I've been away from all the FL drama, and it's good to hear something concrete.

As you may already know, I don't agree with the ability to name "attackers" either.

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 8

RE: The line between bullying and consensual humiliation - 3/26/2013 10:04:20 AM

LPslittleclip

Posts: 1163
Joined: 9/29/2007
Status: offline

consensual is just that when all involved parties agree beforehand and have limits and such. when it is not wanted or desired by all involved has no limits that is cyberbullying. if you post something then you consent to have comments on it.
as far as rough sex is enjoyable but it has to be consensual to be enjoyed if not then it is rape

< Message edited by LPslittleclip -- 3/26/2013 10:11:58 AM >

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LadyPact

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RE: The line between bullying and consensual humiliation - 3/26/2013 12:45:03 PM

LafayetteLady

Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LPslittleclip

consensual is just that when all involved parties agree beforehand and have limits and such. when it is not wanted or desired by all involved has no limits that is cyberbullying. if you post something then you consent to have comments on it.
as far as rough sex is enjoyable but it has to be consensual to be enjoyed if not then it is rape

Ordinarily, yes, but as your LadyPact just pointed out, there are many subs who meet someone for the first time, agree to play and then are unhappy about how things turned out. That isn't rape, that is "morning after regret," no different than the college girls who get black out drunk of their own accord, have sex with someone and then wake up the next morning crying rape. There is personal responsibility in both instances.

(in reply to LPslittleclip)

Post #: 10

RE: The line between bullying and consensual humiliation - 3/26/2013 2:34:54 PM

tsatske

Posts: 2037
Joined: 3/9/2007
From: Louisville, KY
Status: offline

Tere is personal responsibility on both sides. Young ladies would do well not to get black out drunk in surrounding they don't know for sure are safe (if they are going to do so at all) - but everyone must be taught that it is not leagally safe to have sex with a stranger who is that drunk. It's not acceptale.

I do feel this was a bit of yellow journalism. I feel sure that many people posted supportive comments and even defended her against attackers, but the artcle pick and chose amongst the responses. As has been said, if you post something in public, you are going to get public responses. I even agree with the response that she shouldn't hold two ladies she could see off in te distance responsible for knowing she needed help unless she actually shouted 'help' or the like. How do they know its not all good, consentual fun, unless you make them know? I don't agree tat she shouldn't have smiled or laughed, and while I think she should have went beserek on the guy and made it so not worth it to him, I don't think she is responsible becuase she didn't. I don't believe in victim shaming. But I do believe that there will be those who do it, so I would be careful to post details of an attack while I still felt too sensitvie to handle negitive comments. It's the internet. If I post, 'puppies are cute', someones going to make a nasty comment, out of the millions of people on the internet, that shouldn't be a surprise

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RE: The line between bullying and consensual humiliation - 3/26/2013 2:53:57 PM

kalikshama

Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
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quote:

There is personal responsibility on both sides. Young ladies would do well not to get black out drunk in surrounding they don't know for sure are safe (if they are going to do so at all) - but everyone must be taught that it is not legally safe to have sex with a stranger who is that drunk. It's not acceptable.

My experience with the Boston scene on Fet is that the "ladies would do well not to get black out drunk" side is not emphasized nearly enough and takes a back seat to pointing fingers based on hearsay.

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(in reply to tsatske)

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RE: The line between bullying and consensual humiliation - 3/26/2013 5:04:27 PM

LafayetteLady

Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tsatske

Tere is personal responsibility on both sides. Young ladies would do well not to get black out drunk in surrounding they don't know for sure are safe (if they are going to do so at all) - but everyone must be taught that it is not leagally safe to have sex with a stranger who is that drunk. It's not acceptale.

Problem is that in the situations I spoke of, where this is most common, the college parties, the guys are just as drunk as the girls. Yes, everyone should know not to have drunk sex, but when you are drunk, you don't make good decisions.

(in reply to tsatske)

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RE: The line between bullying and consensual humiliation - 3/26/2013 5:58:35 PM

littlewonder

Posts: 15659
Status: offline

didn't bother reading the article. No need. Some people are just a little sensitive and I have a feeling they never leave their homes let alone their computers.

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RE: The line between cyberbullying and consensual humil... - 3/26/2013 7:03:29 PM

LillyBoPeep

Posts: 6873
Joined: 12/29/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

There's an ongoing concern about Fet that "The Caretakers allow rapists to talk but censor posts of rape victims." I don't know anything about the truth of this claim, myself.

Theoretically, the reason for this is that a alleged rapist talking might just be a fantasy or some sort of story, but a rape accusation is criminal. So they say the reason they allow one and not the other is that they don't allow criminal accusations on the site.

I have seen some shady behavior there with the victims in bad situations being the ones who are more likely to be blamed.

JohnBaku recently caused a flap by making a video mocking a 9 year old from youtube, posting the video to his FL, and LINKING to the 9 year old's video, which was originally posted to FL by some cute little chick JB was apparently trying to impress. Because of the various rows with the credit card processors, anything involving children is strictly verboten. =p Many people feel that JB broke his own rules, and as a result, a hoarde of complete creepazoids went to the kid's Youtube and Facebook account (unfortunately the kid mentions how to find him on FB... parents, where are you?) and sent him a variety of (unbelievably) atrocious messages. JB claims to have written Youtube and the kids' parents an apology, and the video has since been removed, but I dunno that "Hello, I'm the proprietor of an adult kinky sex website and I apologize for linking your 9 year old's video on my site" would sit well with parents. =p

There are definitely some issues there...

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(in reply to RedMagic1)

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RE: The line between cyberbullying and consensual humil... - 3/26/2013 7:10:35 PM

LillyBoPeep

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Oh and as far as cyberbullying is concerned... There are definitely ways to prevent it, but I don't think it all boils down to some people being too sensitive. Just as there are those people, there are people who are way too serious about being obnoxious, who stalk others around websites, or find others who can help them dig up personal information on people. Cyberbullying can cross the line into reality. One notorious example was of an adult woman who bullied a classmate of her daughter via the internet, and the girl ended up committing suicide.

I don't know how I feel about the "name your attacker" thing on FL. On one hand, it's true that people are generally going to try to warn each other, but honestly, they can do that in all sorts of ways besides FL. And on another hand - there is an ENORMOUS potential for abuse there. ENORMOUS. How would you qualify legitimate namings-of-abusers from the ones that aren't? It would just be so involved, and not even in FL's realm at that point.

You are allowed to tell stories, but you aren't allowed to name names. Caretakers will go into a writing and edit out any names and any other content - but they do say they try to maintain the integrity of whatever it was that they've edited.

I have seen what I would consider a lax attitude towards bullying, blatant racism, or other things. But I also reported a profile that claimed to actually be engaged in trafficking of women and girls, and messaged JB personally, and he had his team investigate it. The profile was removed, but I dunno how much further it went.

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"Obey your Master." Metallica

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RE: The line between cyberbullying and consensual humil... - 3/27/2013 4:02:32 AM

chatterbox24

Posts: 2182
Joined: 1/22/2012
Status: offline

THe line between bullying?
I believe bullying is bullying when someone complains it is. IT doesn't matter if the majority pipes up to say " oh this person is to sensitive, they asked for it, I tell the facts" If someone is complaining they feel attacked, it is very real to them. If it feels like bullying to them, it is. That is the line. Usually if someone complains of being bullied, they are so much of the time told "you dont have self control" "you play a victim" I have rarely seen a person say to the person. " I am really sorry to make you feel that way, my tone was not meant to hurt you but to help you" Takes a big person with empathy for others to do that. Using the internet for an excuse to be mean spirited to others, or talk down to them, or call them out on everything you feel is wrong with them is a lame excuse to use. Still there is a person on the other side, not everyone is a troll, fake, liar, people dont know their situation and some people just are rookies, and what seems like cake to some, is a big deal to them. They simply dont know, and really want some good advice. Telling them they are stupid, or you are to old not to know that, is not productive. For as many people who come on this site, and are members, the ratio of people who actually post is very minimal, think there might be a reason for that? I personally find nothing good about intentionally making another feel bad. Alot of posts by new people end up that way, no one sees the pattern? Just my two cents!

Consensual humilation?
ITs consensual when they ask for it by name.

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My crazy smells like jasmine, cloves and cat nip.

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RE: The line between cyberbullying and consensual humil... - 3/27/2013 4:09:19 AM

kalikshama

Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline

quote:

I don't know how I feel about the "name your attacker" thing on FL. On one hand, it's true that people are generally going to try to warn each other, but honestly, they can do that in all sorts of ways besides FL.

Are these people who are naming their attacker on FL also naming their attacker to law enforcement?

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RE: The line between cyberbullying and consensual humil... - 3/27/2013 4:32:53 AM

ARIES83

Posts: 3648
Status: offline

I've never been cyber bullied to my knowledge,
and to be honest, I'm not really sure how it
would be possible to bully me via the internet.

Sooo... Your move, bullies.

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530 DAYS

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RE: The line between cyberbullying and consensual humil... - 3/27/2013 4:51:19 AM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

THe line between bullying?
I believe bullying is bullying when someone complains it is. IT doesn't matter if the majority pipes up to say " oh this person is to sensitive, they asked for it, I tell the facts" If someone is complaining they feel attacked, it is very real to them. If it feels like bullying to them, it is. That is the line. Usually if someone complains of being bullied, they are so much of the time told "you dont have self control" "you play a victim" I have rarely seen a person say to the person. " I am really sorry to make you feel that way, my tone was not meant to hurt you but to help you" Takes a big person with empathy for others to do that. Using the internet for an excuse to be mean spirited to others, or talk down to them, or call them out on everything you feel is wrong with them is a lame excuse to use. Still there is a person on the other side, not everyone is a troll, fake, liar, people dont know their situation and some people just are rookies, and what seems like cake to some, is a big deal to them. They simply dont know, and really want some good advice. Telling them they are stupid, or you are to old not to know that, is not productive. For as many people who come on this site, and are members, the ratio of people who actually post is very minimal, think there might be a reason for that? I personally find nothing good about intentionally making another feel bad. Alot of posts by new people end up that way, no one sees the pattern? Just my two cents!

Consensual humilation?
ITs consensual when they ask for it by name.

Unfortunately, I have to disagree.

People absolutely are responsible for their own feelings and feelings are not facts. Frankly, I can't *make* a person FEEL one way or another. That is their own doing.

In the spirit of this, both sites have higher authorities for an impartial (hopefully) opinion of the situation if a person can not resolve the problem themselves. On Fet, this is kind of lacking, and I admit that. I've seen a number of group owners do very little moderation because they want a "hands-off" approach. However, that is why the Caretakers are in place on that site.

I do not agree with the premise that it is bullying just because somebody thinks it is. That's kind of a reality check issue. Often, one person's perception of reality isn't exactly the truth. A complaint isn't necessarily a confirmation. For example, it's completely plausible that you *think* this reply is, in some way, being mean to you. Does that really make it so? Nope. It doesn't. The problem with that would be your own interpretations, which frankly, other posters have very little to do with.

Yeah, I think there's a reason that a very small percentage of folks use the forums here. It's because most of the site's traffic sees the place as a hook up joint or a dating site.

I would go further to say that some straight from the hip comments ARE productive. If a person learns something from it, that is still a positive result. The end game really does have a significance in this discussion.

I say it often. Kinky sites on the net are not AA and the newcomers are not the most important person in the room. To steal a line from those fine folks, they have a saying. "If you want what we have to offer and are willing to make the effort to get it........" It doesn't say anything about patting people on the head or making people 'feel good' while they go through their education process. In fact, most recovery folks that I've run across have made no qualms about the reality that there are going to be bumps along the way. Not everybody is going to kiss your (figurative you) ass during the process.

No, not everybody is a troll, or a liar, or some other nefarious thing. At the same time, I think we can all recognize that some people are and have proven themselves as such. If they have made that bed for themselves with prior posting history, in My opinion, they have decided their own fate.

Edited for clarity.

< Message edited by LadyPact -- 3/27/2013 5:07:07 AM >

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to chatterbox24)

Post #: 20

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